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Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 10:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

the day before?

Do you think a small recap would be possible?
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Alizon (Alizon) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 10:56 am:

the day before? no - two days before. Catherine was married on Sunday 14th November; the events of this puzzle took place on Friday 12th.

Do you think a small recap would be possible? most certainly :) I will do my best to omit irrelevant detail.

Prince Arthur of England married Princess Catherine of Spain in 1501, in the City of London.

It was important to the ruling families of both countries that this match be a successful one, especially in terms of producing a child who might continue the royal dynasty.

For this reason, the omens surrounding the marriage were regarded as important. There was an inauspicious aspect to those omens, and this has yet to be unearthed. It was, however, to some extent negated by the existence of the Great Bear, Ursa Major, and in particular one of the stars in that constellation, Arcturus.

Sadly, Prince Arthur died two years after his wedding, at the age of seventeen. It would assist you greatly to contemplate what he might have become had he lived...
Peter Johnson (Astraz)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 12:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did a comet appear near the Great Bear ?
Did this comet symbolise something ?
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 12:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Peter Johnson (Astraz) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 12:31 pm:

Did a comet appear near the Great Bear ? no, but good thinking :)
Did this comet symbolise something ? no

And welcome - or welcome back - to this forum :)
Peter Johnson (Astraz)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 1:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

On Nov 12th 1501 Catherine made her formal entry into London. Is this the event we are looking for ?

Thanks for the welcome, it is my first time in this forum.
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 2:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Peter Johnson (Astraz) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 01:37 pm:

On Nov 12th 1501 Catherine made her formal entry into London. Is this the event we are looking for ? yes, indeed

Thanks for the welcome, it is my first time in this forum. well, that's not a bad question for a beginner :)
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 6:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am going to consult my astrological tables for the position of the stars, ascendants etc. on Nov 15, 1501. Or do you think that I should spend my time on something more useful?
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 6:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

oops, of course it should have been "Nov 12th".

And just kidding, I have no astrological tables and hardly understand any of the star stuff but I'll google my best...
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 7:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The stars are reluctant to answer - I will have to try myself..

Catherine arrived to London on Nov 9th.

The formal entry took place on Nov 12th.

They were married on Nov 15th.

Was there any relevant reason for any of the time delays?
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 8:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Alizon (Alizon) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 06:02 pm:

I am going to consult my astrological tables for the position of the stars, ascendants etc. on Nov 15, 1501. Or do you think that I should spend my time on something more useful? yes :)

By Alizon (Alizon) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 07:13 pm:

Catherine arrived to London on Nov 9th.

The formal entry took place on Nov 12th.

They were married on Nov 15th.

Was there any relevant reason for any of the time delays? it was necessary to make certain elaborate prepartions for these events, in particular for her formal procession through London, during which...
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 9:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

..during which something happened the existence of which was somewhat mitigated by the existence of the Great Bear, correct? Can we call it "event A"?

Had he not died, Arthur may have become a king. You have mentioned this twice. So I assume it is important for the solution.

Do we need some special knowledge (or knowledge which is not common now but was back then) to find what Event A was?

Did Event A have something to do with the (assumed) ability of Arthur to produce male offspring? If so, would it mean the same for any other person marrying on the same day? Relevant to his birth date? To anything else?

Did Event A involve star constellations? weather conditions? anything happening during the formal entry? done by people during the same?

DId they need an expert (e.g. an astrologue, a doctor, a religious scholar) to explain Event A to them, or was it obvious to anybody?
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 10:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Alizon (Alizon) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 09:37 pm:

..during which something happened yes the existence of which was somewhat mitigated by the existence of the Great Bear, correct? well, the significance of which was in some way ameliorated thanks to the existence of the Great Bear, yes Can we call it "event A"? by all means

Had he not died, Arthur may have become a king. You have mentioned this twice. So I assume it is important for the solution. it is absolutely crucial :)

Do we need some special knowledge (or knowledge which is not common now but was back then) to find what Event A was? not really, but you might like to think what a formal visit to London by a woman who was going to marry the Prince of Wales would involve...

Did Event A have something to do with the (assumed) ability of Arthur to produce male offspring? yesish If so, would it mean the same for any other person marrying on the same day? no Relevant to his birth date? no To anything else? yes

Did Event A involve star constellations? yes - it involved Ursa Major and Arcuturus weather conditions? yes anything happening during the formal entry? yes done by people during the same? most certainly

DId they need an expert (e.g. an astrologue, a doctor, a religious scholar) to explain Event A to them, yes, ideed - very good question :) or was it obvious to anybody? no
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 10:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I assume London might have been adorned with golden cloth, with crowds of people dressed in their best clothes rushing around.

Was Event A related to rain? Had an astrologue told the royal family something like "today it is raining cats and dogs, but the day after tomorrow the sky will be clear and it will be much nicer to celebrate the wedding?"

OK, a wild guess ;o)) Nevermind, let's start again.

So, was the expert an astrologue? A doctor? Any other "specialized" profession? Relevant?
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 10:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Alizon (Alizon) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 10:48 pm:

I assume London might have been adorned with golden cloth, with crowds of people dressed in their best clothes rushing around. exactly so. And what might they have been rushing around doing, in order to celebrate the arrival of their future Queen and her marriage to their future King?

Was Event A related to rain? no Had an astrologue told the royal family something like "today it is raining cats and dogs, but the day after tomorrow the sky will be clear and it will be much nicer to celebrate the wedding?" nothing like this

OK, a wild guess ;o)) Nevermind, let's start again.

So, was the expert an astrologue? this is closer... A doctor? ...than this, but... Any other "specialized" profession? ...I am not sure what you mean by "specialized", but certainly the "expert" was a member of a particular profession Relevant? it would help, yes
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 10:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A pageant?
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 10:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Alizon (Alizon) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 10:55 pm:

A pageant? precisely so - well done :)
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 10:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Cracking bonfires?

Was the profession of the expert common then? Is it now?

Was he/she English? or did he come from Spain?

Was it a well-paid profession?
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Alizon (Alizon) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 10:57 pm:

Cracking bonfires? history does not record whether any bonfires were involved

Was the profession of the expert common then? yes Is it now? yes

Was he/she English? yes or did he come from Spain? no

Was it a well-paid profession? not for this particular exponent of it, no, nor for the majority of its practitioners today. Some members of this profession are, however, very highly paid indeed.
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the expert male? female? relevant?

Was he/she a member of the Court?

Do we know him by name?

Is this a profession with a high reputation?

Would you study an university to become one?

Was he a priest?
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A jester?
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Alizon (Alizon) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:11 pm:

Is the expert male? female? this one relevant? perhaps a little

Was he/she a member of the Court? no

Do we know him by name? no

Is this a profession with a high reputation? I am not sure what this means. Many members of it are world-famous.

Would you study an university to become one? no

Was he a priest? no

By Simon Downham (Beroean) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:11 pm:

A jester? this is very much along the right lines, but rather more general than that...
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

a midwife? a fool?