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Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 11:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Puzzle Statement
A picture paints a thousand words and it erases the truth!

Background
This is a brief puzzle concerning the heritage of Basingstoke, the town in which I was born and bred.

Naturally it all hinges on a lateral twist but I invite you to "Google" for the bit that that requires specialist knowledge.


Basingstoke is one of those towns which the nation likes to ridicule as one of those towns that nobody wishes to reside in and is the butt of many jokes. However it is a settlement that has an interesting history that includes a battle involving Oliver Cromwell, a Roman Fort and stretches back to the earliest times of Human Habitation in the British Isles.
Tim A. Dowd (Bodo)
Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 3:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The only thing I've heard of Basingstoke outside the forum is the bit in Ruddigore, which didn't seem to me to be making fun of Basingstoke (but then that could be my own ignorance).

Is this a literal picture?

If so, relevant the medium in which it was executed? Where it was published/shown? The subject?
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 3:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The only thing I've heard of Basingstoke outside the forum is the bit in Ruddigore, which didn't seem to me to be making fun of Basingstoke (but then that could be my own ignorance).

Yes Tim, I think we've discussed this before - you were performing in the operetta if I remember correctly. Either that or you were in the orchestra playing your tuba!

The jokes about Basingstoke are far more modern. Basingstoke was a hurriedly developed "new town", particulary from the 1950's onward, to cater for the overspill population of London. There was a massive resettlement of the capital's population to deal with slums and faciltate redevelopment of parts of the capital. Milton Keynes is another example of a new London dormitory town and perhaps the most famous one.


Is this a literal picture? Yes

If so, relevant the medium in which it was executed? Yes
Where it was published/shown? Yes
The subject? Yes
Tim A. Dowd (Bodo)
Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 4:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That's one I've done twice (I think it was only twice)--once at Stanford University and once with a San Jose G&S group (both times in the pit--I'm neither an actor nor a singer). I'm pretty sure it was written before the '50s, though...:O

Photograph? Oil painting? Digital? Etching? Watercolo(u)r? Acrylic? Mosaic? Found items (a. k. a. junk)? Crop circles? Charcoal? Crayon? Pencil? Ink? Henna?

Is its size relevant? Mathcbox-sized? CD/DVD Jewel-box sized? Computer monitor sized? Car sized? Larger?

Was it intended for public display? Is it stationary? Is it still visible today? Was it published in a periodical? A book? Not published at all?
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 4:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That's one I've done twice (I think it was only twice)--once at Stanford University and once with a San Jose G&S group (both times in the pit--I'm neither an actor nor a singer). I'm pretty sure it was written before the '50s, though... It's all coming back to me now!

Photograph? no
Oil painting? Almost certainly
Digital? no
Etching? no
Watercolo(u)r? no
Acrylic? possibly but I don't think so
Mosaic? no
Found items (a. k. a. junk)? not sure what you mean here but I don't think so
Crop circles? interestingly, no

Charcoal? Crayon? Pencil? Ink? Henna? no to the rest

Is its size relevant? Yes
Mathcbox-sized? CD/DVD Jewel-box sized? Computer monitor sized? Car sized? Larger?
It is somewhat larger than a PC monitor (maybe about x 4 times the size of a PC monitor

Was it intended for public display? Yes - solely for public display
Is it stationary? No
Is it still visible today? Yes - in fact I can send you a link later although it is difficult to make out

Was it published in a periodical? A book? Not published at all? No to these

The specific picture I am thinking of may be a copy of the original in which case, my answers will only pertain to "my" picture in question
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 8:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does the picture date back to
the

14th century
15th century
16th century
17th century
18th century
19th century
20th century
21st century?
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 8:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does the picture date back to
the

14th century
15th century
16th century
17th century
18th century
19th century
20th century
21st century?

The image of the picture dates back to the late 18th century but the actual "picture" in the puzzle dates from the mid - late 20th century
Tim A. Dowd (Bodo)
Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 11:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sorry for the delay--had to run down to Carmel to see the mission--my daughter's in fourth grade and that means California history and that means the missions...the weather on the coast was beautiful, though--perfect blue skies and around 65°F/18°C.

Not stationary--is it on a moving object? A vehicle? A flag/pennant?
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 11:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sorry for the delay--had to run down to Carmel to see the mission--my daughter's in fourth grade and that means California history and that means the missions...the weather on the coast was beautiful, though--perfect blue skies and around 65°F/18°C. what exactly does the mission entail - a re-enactment?

Not stationary--is it on a moving object? Yope
A vehicle? no
A flag/pennant? OTRT
Tim A. Dowd (Bodo)
Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 3:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The missions founded by Father Junipero Serra are a big part of the history of California--they're all over both Alta and Baja Californias. Father Serra and his fellow Franciscans saw the natives as people in need of salvation rather than exploitation, at least, whether or not one agrees with their efforts otherwise. For example, the famed (well, there is a song, anyhow) swallows of San Juan Capistrano built their nests on the mission there. The mission at Carmel, which I believe is the second-oldest, is still a functioning Catholic church (we timed our visit to the Basilica to be between masses). I think most (if not all) of them are still holding services. Here's a link: San Carlos Borroméo De Carmelo Mission. It's about an hour-and-a-half from our place, although there are two closer (Santa Clara and San Jose, the latter being not in San Jose but Fremont)--in fact, the mission in San Francisco is probably closer. It helps to remember that for USians stuff that happened 200 years ago is ancient history. :O

It's painted on something which is flexible?
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 4:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it blues? Is it a ballad? I don't know but I have always enjoyed "When the Swallows come back to Capistrano" as sung by "The Ink Spots" Simply because of the song itself, I researched to find out what and where Capistrano is, some time back - so I do know what you are talking about. Have you been to this location of heritage and even seen the swallows?

It's painted on something which is flexible?
It's not painted on something flexible but it is attached to something that allows the whole picture to have movement.
Tim A. Dowd (Bodo)
Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 4:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It's around 500 miles south of here, so we don't get there often (although we stopped by the last time we were coming up from San Diego a little over 3 years ago). My wife and I have both played concerts in the Santa Clara mission, including a performance of Saint-Saens' 3rd Symphony with the pipe organ (it's a nice tune, I recommend it--you might recognize the main theme if you've seen the movie Babe), and her grandfather used to attend mass there.

Is it literally erasing (rubbing away) something? Is it moved by some sort of mechanical contrivance? By wind? A shifting building? Is it supposed to move?
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 4:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

500 miles is like me travelling from where I am (30 miles from the south coast of England) all the way to Scotland. I saw the movie Babe but cannot recall any of the music but I'll find the piece and play it. More to the point, only now, am I becoming aware of the extent of your musical fame.

Are any of your or your wife's ancestore Spanish?


Is it literally erasing (rubbing away) something? no
Is it moved by some sort of mechanical contrivance? No
By wind? Yes!
A shifting building? No
Is it supposed to move? Yes, I guess so. I have not really considered it before but now that I am think about it, I don't know what the point of any movement is. You might come up with some ideas.
Tim A. Dowd (Bodo)
Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 5:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yeah, California's about 800 miles top-to-bottom; San Juan Capistrano's near the bottom of the state. And I was just sitting in with the Santa Clara University orchestra (the mission is on the campus--it's a Catholic school) when we played that--my musical fame is pretty much limited to local amateur theater groups.

My wife's paternal grandparents migrated here from Italy by way of Australia--my wife was born and raised about three miles from where we live now.


Is it on a balloon? Is the title relevant?
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 5:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Roots (of the family tree variety) are fascinating aren't they? I don't know whether I am Anglo-Saxon / Roman / Norman or what, not that it matters but its interesting to know. My father traced our paternal line back a few centuries. "Downham" appears to an English name meaning "one who comes from hamlets in the downs". I wonder why "Downs", as in the "Watership" kind (which is right where I live) are called so, rather than "ups"?

Is it on a balloon? No
Is the title relevant? Yes
Tim A. Dowd (Bodo)
Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 5:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Someone traced some line (I think it was through my paternal grandmother) back to the American Revolution (the ultimate name being "Platt" or maybe "Platte"). I've even got a copy of a hand-drawn family tree (one of those that looks like a tree). In the meantime, though, enough other lines have converged to where I simply consider myself a "native Californian" (that being a rare thing among people older than seven). I suppose I could insist upon being referred to as "an American of European heritage..."

So the painting is on some sort of rigid (or relatively rigid) thing which moves with the wind?

Does it erase the truth by depicting fiction? A ficticious event?
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 5:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I wonder why "Downs", as in the "Watership" kind (which is right where I live) are called so, rather than "ups"?

The word "down" in this context comes from the Old English word "doun", itself from the Celtic "dun", which simply meant a hill. It is, in effect, the same word as the modern "dune".
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 5:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"that being a rare thing among people older than seven" :-) I can empathise with that. When I tell people that I was born and bred in Basingstoke, they give me look that suggests they doubt my honesty. And when I tell them that both my parents were born and bred here too, I get the feeling that they will take everything else that I utter, with a pinch of salt.


So the painting is on some sort of rigid (or relatively rigid) thing which moves with the wind? Yes

Does it erase the truth by depicting fiction? Not fiction but something else entirely

A ficticious event? A real event
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 5:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The word "down" in this context comes from the Old English word "doun", itself from the Celtic "dun", which simply meant a hill. It is, in effect, the same word as the modern "dune".

Thanks David, that is interesting!

(I suppose if I was Scottish, I could say that I came from the Doons) :-)
Tim A. Dowd (Bodo)
Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 6:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yeah, California is mostly populated with immigrants (from other states as well as other countries). Here in Cupertino (around 50,000 people) we're about 57% Asian, 33% White, 9% Hispanic and 1% Black, I think (although such numbers don't really account for people of mixed heritage). Of the Asian population, I would guess that well over half immigrated from their native country. My next-door neighbo(u)rs on one side are of Chinese descent (although they were both born in the US), and on the other side one is from Mexico City (the other is a local). I never really thought about it much until our road trip to Idaho last June for my cousin's wedding--something seemed strange and then I realized it was more...ah...monochromatic than I was used to.

So the picture accurately depicts an historical event? But this misleads in some way?
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 6:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I didn't realise just how many of asian decent there were in your parts. I wrongly assumed it was mostly hispanic and white. My favo(u)rite asian american of all time was Jack Soo, who played Nick Yemana in (also my favo(u)rite US american cop sitcom) Barney Miller. Mind you was was a New Yorker (at least in the TV series). Have you ever watched it?


So the picture accurately depicts an historical event? Yes
But this misleads in some way? Yes
Tim A. Dowd (Bodo)
Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 7:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, as I said, I don't really think about it much--even though I grew up here, it's not like it was an instant change. And Santa Clara County (which includes Cupertino) is probably distributed somewhate differently, although I wouldn't think whites would be much (if any) more than 50%. My best guess would be that there are around 2,000,000 people in the county, half of them living in the city of San Jose, but I could be off by a few hundred thousand either way. There are significant Middle-Eastern and Asian populations in other parts of the Bay Area also--Fremont, for example, in the East Bay, has several good-sized movie theaters which show Bollywood stuff. Don't ask about the price of housing, though--you won't believe it.

Does it mislead due to its location? Due to something nearby? Something written?