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Lateral Puzzles » Solved Lateral Thinking Puzzles » Solved Puzzles - March 2005 » [Buzzard] A band out of New Orleans « Previous Next »

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Haenlomal (Haenlomal)
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 11:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

And did Stanley in the meantime go to have a meeting with Marina (and Elliot and others)?
Johanna (Buzzard)
Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 7:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

And did Stanley in the meantime go to have a meeting with Marina (and Elliot and others)? no, he just had something else to do that evening. What he did is not relevant.
Haenlomal (Haenlomal)
Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 4:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sorry, but what's left for us to uncover?
Johanna (Buzzard)
Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 5:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sorry, but what's left for us to uncover? Why was it stupid of Marina to conclude that Bianca was ordering the attacks on her employees?
Haenlomal (Haenlomal)
Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 6:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Right

Did Marina base her wrong conclusions on something said by Stanley? Something presented by Stanley? Something said by Bianca? Something presented by Bianca? Something said by Vic (before he died)? Something presented by Vic (before he died)?

Something else?
Haenlomal (Haenlomal)
Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 6:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh, silly me...should've thought of this earlier..

Did Marina come to her wrong conclusion because she mistakenly thought that only Bianca would have the knowledge that Vic substituted for Stanley? And in order to make for more dramatic TV, did she overlook the possibility that it just might have been a coincidence?
Johanna (Buzzard)
Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 7:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Marina base her wrong conclusions on something said by Stanley? Something presented by Stanley? Something said by Bianca? Something presented by Bianca? Something said by Vic (before he died)? Something presented by Vic (before he died)? none of these, specifically - it was a combination of bits of available evidence, resting primarily on the discovery that Vic was subbing for Stanley the night he was killed.

Something else?

Did Marina come to her wrong conclusion because she mistakenly thought that only Bianca would have the knowledge that Vic substituted for Stanley? no, but explore And in order to make for more dramatic TV, did she overlook the possibility that it just might have been a coincidence? I don't think she "overlooked" the possibility - I think she wanted to explore the possibility that it might not have been a coincidence. :)
Haenlomal (Haenlomal)
Posted on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 4:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Marina think that Bianca actually wanted Stanley dead, so Vic in this case was a victim of mistaken identity?
Johanna (Buzzard)
Posted on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 4:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Marina think that Bianca actually wanted Stanley dead, so Vic in this case was a victim of mistaken identity? yes, that is why Marina suspected Bianca - because only Bianca knew that it was Stanley who was supposed to be on that particular "date".
Haenlomal (Haenlomal)
Posted on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 4:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

And this was stupid because if Marina was correct, then Stanley would have been a murder victim the first time instead of just an assault victim?
Johanna (Buzzard)
Posted on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 4:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

And this was stupid because if Marina was correct, then Stanley would have been a murder victim the first time instead of just an assault victim? no
Haenlomal (Haenlomal)
Posted on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 4:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You wrote earlier that Marina based her erroneous conclusions on "bits of available evidence, resting primarily on the discovery that Vic was subbing for Stanley the night he was killed.". Do we need to discover anything else about these "bits of evidence"?
Johanna (Buzzard)
Posted on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 5:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You wrote earlier that Marina based her erroneous conclusions on "bits of available evidence, resting primarily on the discovery that Vic was subbing for Stanley the night he was killed.". Do we need to discover anything else about these "bits of evidence"? no
Haenlomal (Haenlomal)
Posted on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 6:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the idea that Marina was being stupid because she committed Stanley to a course of action without ruling out other possibilities first?

Is there anything more about Stanley we need to discover? About Bianca? About Marina? About Una?
Johanna (Buzzard)
Posted on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 7:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the idea that Marina was being stupid because she committed Stanley to a course of action without ruling out other possibilities first? no

Is there anything more about Stanley we need to discover? About Bianca? About Marina? About Una? no
Haenlomal (Haenlomal)
Posted on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 9:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hmm...running on empty here, but maybe that's just because I've been pulling 12 hour workdays for the past week. I have a feeling I'll be kicking myself for not recognizing it sooner once I get to the bottom of this.

Was Marina's idea stupid because it would mean that Bianca is cutting into her own source of livelihood?
Johanna (Buzzard)
Posted on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 9:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Marina's idea stupid because it would mean that Bianca is cutting into her own source of livelihood? no
Quintus Marcius (Philippus)
Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2005 - 12:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Lots of progress while I've been busy elsewhere. Well done Haenlomal, I'd got pretty stuck.

Did Marina think that Stanley had arranged the swap with Vic through fear of assault or murder?
Was the stupidity assuming that Stanley was the intended victim? even though another escort was attacked between the attack on Stanley and the attack on Vic?

Should Bianca have been excluded as a suspect on grounds of means? motive? opportunity?
Johanna (Buzzard)
Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2005 - 10:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Marina think that Stanley had arranged the swap with Vic through fear of assault or murder? no
Was the stupidity assuming that Stanley was the intended victim? in part even though another escort was attacked between the attack on Stanley and the attack on Vic? this is not all that important - I forget how Marina/Olivia rationalised that, and it does not matter

Should Bianca have been excluded as a suspect on grounds of means? motive? opportunity? Bianca did not demonstrably lack any of these things, and in fact could have orchestrated such a series of attacks on her employees if she had really wanted to. But she would not have gone about it in quite this way.
Quintus Marcius (Philippus)
Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2005 - 1:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm going to have a go at reconstructing Marina's theory, in case the exercise helps me or other puzzlers. There will be questions at the end, so pay attention, everyone. :^)

Bianca wants to murder Stanley. To do this, she hires a female assassin and gets her to book an escort using a fake identity. Bianca then allocates the booking to Stanley, who is killed by an anonymous customer who cannot be traced back to Bianca.

Is that the thought process involved? (It certainly seems rather complicated.)
Have I identified the aspect of the theory that you find problematic?

Would Bianca find it easy to get access to Stanley without going through all the rigmarole?
Does Bianca do all of the allocations of escorts to clients?
Did Marina think that Bianca had made the bookings herself? Without going through the normal procedure of contacting the agency?
Did Marina think that Bianca had committed the murder personally?
Johanna (Buzzard)
Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 8:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm going to have a go at reconstructing Marina's theory, in case the exercise helps me or other puzzlers. There will be questions at the end, so pay attention, everyone. :^)

Bianca wants to murder Stanley. To do this, she hires a female assassin and gets her to book an escort using a fake identity. Bianca then allocates the booking to Stanley, who is killed by an anonymous customer who cannot be traced back to Bianca.

Is that the thought process involved? yes (It certainly seems rather complicated.)
Have I identified the aspect of the theory that you find problematic? no(ish)

Would Bianca find it easy to get access to Stanley without going through all the rigmarole? irrel
Does Bianca do all of the allocations of escorts to clients? yes
Did Marina think that Bianca had made the bookings herself? possibly Without going through the normal procedure of contacting the agency? I'm not sure what this means.
Did Marina think that Bianca had committed the murder personally? no
Haenlomal (Haenlomal)
Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 5:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the idea behind Marina's stupidity that if Bianca had really wanted to whack Stanley, she would have done so another way?
Johanna (Buzzard)
Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 9:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the idea behind Marina's stupidity that if Bianca had really wanted to whack Stanley, she would have done so another way? yes, for sufficiently small values of "another"
Haenlomal (Haenlomal)
Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 4:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Besides the reason given in the previous question, are there any other relevant reasons that Marina's actions are stupid?
Johanna (Buzzard)
Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 4:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Besides the reason given in the previous question, are there any other relevant reasons that Marina's actions are stupid? Let me put it this way. There is a specific detail of the attacks as they happened that Bianca, had she orchestrated the attacks, would have changed.

Hint: Think about things from Stanley's point of view.
Quintus Marcius (Philippus)
Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 7:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

After Stanley was attacked, did he become more cautious about new clients?
It would have been especially difficult to catch him off guard once he saw that the same woman who attacked him last time had turned up. Was there clear forensic evidence indicating that the same person had committed all the attacks?
Johanna (Buzzard)
Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 11:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

After Stanley was attacked, did he become more cautious about new clients? possibly, but...
It would have been especially difficult to catch him off guard once he saw that the same woman who attacked him last time had turned up. YES!! That's it exactly. Was there clear forensic evidence indicating that the same person had committed all the attacks? Indeed there was.

************ SPOILER ************

Bianca runs a male escort agency. Over a period of time, several of her employees were attacked while on the job. First Stanley was assaulted, then another man was assaulted, and finally Vic was murdered. The guilty party each time was a woman we've been calling Una. Forensic evidence (fingerprints and such) from the three crime scenes indicates that all three attacks were committed by the same person, and the descriptions given to police by the two assault victims suggest that she wasn't physically disguising herself, although she booked all three "dates" using three different stolen credit cards (and hence, names other than her own as well).

Marina, the detective investigating the case, knew all this, although the part about the evidence that all the attacks were committed by the same person obviously was not emphasised. She then learned that it was actually Stanley who was supposed to be on the date on which Vic was killed - only Bianca and Stanley knew that it was supposed to have been Stanley, and Bianca did not know that Stanley and Vic switched places. This led Marina to suspect that Bianca had hired Una to attack her own employees, with the particular purpose of having Stanley killed.

By explaining this theory to Stanley, Marina convinced him to wear a hidden microphone during his next dealing with Bianca, to try to get some evidence on her. Stanley did this. Bianca eventually discovered the microphone, was very upset with Stanley for suspecting her of having anything to do with this, and is inspired to pour a pot of boiling water over his head.

The glaring hole in Marina's theory, which was not mentioned on this particular episode of "Law & Order: Special Victims' Unit", was that if Stanley had actually showed up for the date on which Vic was killed, he would have recognised Una, run for the hills, and been rather difficult to kill. It is my opinion that Marina - who is supposed to be a very experienced and clever detective - was being kind of stupid for not realising this, and that Stanley's injury was therefore completely avoidable.

Thanks to all who participated, especially Haenlomal and Quintus for all their hard work. :)
Quintus Marcius (Philippus)
Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 7:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, it took Haenlomal and myself two months to solve the puzzle, while it only took Olivia and Elliot an hour to solve the crime, so I'm not going to criticise their analytical abilities, even if they do have plot approval. Thanks, Johanna.

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