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Tommy Petersson (Tommyp)
Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 3:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It's now almost a year since the first "Idiomuzzle". If you don't know what it is, you can check the link below for the first in the series of four sofar:

http://www.lateralpuzzles.com/discus/messages/2928/11405.html?1079034426

For extra help, the relevant words are marked with green. Normal lateral yes/no questions are used to find the answer. The puzzle statement as a whole isn't relevant. It contains clues to an idiom, which is the solution for the puzzle.

...and here comes the puzzle statement:

The playboy thought a second or more than necessary as per usual when talking about lignite.
Ed Mason (Logician)
Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 5:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

playboy - the magazine relevant? the mansion? Hugh Hefner?

second = a period of time? the next down from first? the second item in a certain list?

more than = higher? greater?

I haven't a clue where to start with the other two words, so I personally will try and get the first three first.
Martin Schwenk (Trickymartin)
Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 5:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Per... are we looking for a preposition?
Lignite... that is brown coal, right?
Is it 'more than'? or 'more' and 'than'?
Tommy Petersson (Tommyp)
Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 6:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Ed Mason (Logician) on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 05:33 pm

playboy - the magazine relevant? the mansion? Hugh Hefner? The latter is vaguely relevant, but...

second = a period of time? the next down from first? the second item in a certain list? Yesish to the last

more than = higher? greater? Neither, OTRT

I haven't a clue where to start with the other two words, so I personally will try and get the first three first.

By Martin Schwenk (Trickymartin) on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 05:46 pm

Per... are we looking for a preposition? We try to manage without grammar questions as much as possible...

Lignite... that is brown coal, right? Yes

Is it 'more than'? This or 'more' and 'than'?
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 6:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

How many words in the idiom we're looking for? 3? 4? 5? 6? 7? more than 7? fewer than 3?

Playboy -- rake? lecher? womanizer?

More than -- bigger? beyond?

Per -- homonym relevant? Purr? or more along the lines of 'each'? 'for'? 'apiece'

Lignite is coal, so ore (or)? rock?

Second is yesish to after first on a certain list. Is 'certain' what makes it -ish? Is what list relevant? Any list? any of a number of lists?
Tommy Petersson (Tommyp)
Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 6:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab) on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 06:33 pm

How many words in the idiom we're looking for? 3? 4? 5? This 6? 7? more than 7? fewer than 3?

Playboy -- rake? THIS, good! rake lecher? womanizer?

More than -- bigger? beyond? Neither

Per -- homonym relevant? No Purr? or more along the lines of 'each'? 'for'? 'apiece' More along that line

Lignite is coal, so ore (or)? rock? No, easier than that...

Second is yesish to after first on a certain list. Is 'certain' what makes it -ish? Is what list relevant? Any list? any of a number of lists? It's more that you could make a list and it would then be second on that list - but you usually don't have it in a list. Might mislead somewhat.
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 7:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is 'rake' itself the word we want, or do we now have to find something about/connected to 'rake'?

More than = over?

Lignite = coal? coals?

per = by? via? all?

So do I want the word that would be second on a certain list, if I made that list, but I probably wouldn't make that list?
or is the word I'm looking for something to do with the position of right-after-firstness, and the word that would be second on the hypothetical list is not relevant?

Second = place?
Tommy Petersson (Tommyp)
Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 10:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab) on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 07:31 pm

Is 'rake' itself the word we want, or do we now have to find something about/connected to 'rake'? I'm quite pleased with your choice of word, there. We'll stick with it, and indicate it by underlining it and having it red: rake

More than = over? Yes! over

Lignite = coal? coals? This coals

per = by? via? all? No

So do I want the word that would be second on a certain list, if I made that list, but I probably wouldn't make that list? Someone may have made that list for you (and others) when you were young...
or is the word I'm looking for something to do with the position of right-after-firstness, and the word that would be second on the hypothetical list is not relevant? No, not this

Second = place? No

Good questions and suggestions, not much left!
Ed Mason (Logician)
Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 10:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

How does playboy relate to rake?
Tommy Petersson (Tommyp)
Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 11:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Ed Mason (Logician) on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 10:32 pm

How does playboy relate to rake? They are brothers. Or rather, synonyms - rake, libertine, playboy...
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 11:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

An old term for a man-about-town, one who was a hedonist, a womanizer, and a bit of a libertine (in other words what we call a playboy) was "rakehell" (as he was a hell-raiser) or "rake", for short. It has, unfortunately, mostly fallen out of favor. Pity, as it's a lovely word with a great deal of nuance.

I'm pretty sure that I know the idiom we're after, (it has an changeable word, depending on the circumstances, doesn't it?) although I don't know what the connection is for "second" and "per".
Tommy Petersson (Tommyp)
Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 8:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab) on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 11:13 pm

An old term for a man-about-town, one who was a hedonist, a womanizer, and a bit of a libertine (in other words what we call a playboy) was "rakehell" (as he was a hell-raiser) or "rake", for short. It has, unfortunately, mostly fallen out of favor. Pity, as it's a lovely word with a great deal of nuance.

I'm pretty sure that I know the idiom we're after, (it has an changeable word, depending on the circumstances, doesn't it?) although I don't know what the connection is for "second" and "per".

Yes, you know the idiom but it needs to be completed with the missing words. No need to know the connections and guess the words right away, that's what lateral questions are for...
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 4:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

OK, then.

"So do I want the word that would be second on a certain list, if I made that list, but I probably wouldn't make that list? Someone may have made that list for you (and others) when you were young... "

When I was young... how young? six? seven? eight? older than eight? younger than six? school relevant? first grade? second grade? third grade?
declension pattern of pronouns relevant?


And back to "per"...is the word we want not exactly a synonym for "per" as such, but is often used in it's place, especially when quoting prices?

If the answers to these are yes, I shall retire to the cheap seats and eat popcorn whilst cheering on Ed and Martin.
Tommy Petersson (Tommyp)
Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 10:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab) on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 04:33 am

OK, then.

"So do I want the word that would be second on a certain list, if I made that list, but I probably wouldn't make that list? Someone may have made that list for you (and others) when you were young... "

When I was young... how young? six? seven? eight? older than eight? younger than six? school relevant? Yesish, what grade depends on what first language you have. For me it was probably third grade. first grade? second grade? third grade?
declension pattern of pronouns relevant? If I understand it correctly, it's somewhat simpler than that. But OTRT.

And back to "per"...is the word we want not exactly a synonym for "per" as such, but is often used in it's place, especially when quoting prices? Very much OTRT, though I wouldn't say "often". I found one such use and thought it enough for a puzzle...

If the answers to these are yes, I shall retire to the cheap seats and eat popcorn whilst cheering on Ed and Martin. Technically, the answers weren't "yes". But I still think that you in effect have found the idiom and you can wait a few days and see if someone else will finish it.
Martin Schwenk (Trickymartin)
Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 5:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Besides that, there's nothing wrong with cheering on me :)

second... is the "list" in english? Is the list in one language? Is the list connected to gramar, e.g. a list of irregular verbs or so (I hope this doesn't count as grammar question...)?

Per... cent? Is the word we're looking for describing a connection between two "amounts"? a relation even? If so, are both amounts of the same unit (e.g. "3 out of 5 [pieces]")? or of units measuring the same thing (e.g. "2$ for 3")?
Ed Mason (Logician)
Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 6:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

per = in? of? off?

this list = of numbers? of letters? of whole words? of sentences? of colours?
Tommy Petersson (Tommyp)
Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 7:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Martin Schwenk (Trickymartin) on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 05:35 pm

second... is the "list" in english? Yes... Is the list in one language? so, yes. Is the list connected to gramar, Yes e.g. a list of irregular verbs or so (I hope this doesn't count as grammar question...)? You would never get any minus points anyway...

Per... cent? No Is the word we're looking for describing a connection between two "amounts"? Yes a relation even? Yes If so, are both amounts of the same unit (e.g. "3 out of 5 [pieces]")? Could be, but doesn't have to be. or of units measuring the same thing (e.g. "2$ for 3")? No.

By Ed Mason (Logician) on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 06:03 pm

per = in? of? off? Neither of these.

this list = of numbers? of letters? of whole words? This of sentences? of colours?
Martin Schwenk (Trickymartin)
Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 7:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Second... is the list a conjugation? "You"? A declension? "Dative"?

Per... "for"? "through"?
Tommy Petersson (Tommyp)
Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 9:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Martin Schwenk (Trickymartin) on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 07:35 pm

Second... is the list a conjugation? "You"? This, you - not much left now! A declension? "Dative"?

Per... "for"? "through"? Neither
Martin Schwenk (Trickymartin)
Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 9:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"over"?
Tommy Petersson (Tommyp)
Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 9:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Martin Schwenk (Trickymartin) on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 09:29 pm

"over"? No, we already have the words rake, over, coals and you
we can't have "over" over and over, can we?
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 9:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Rah, rah, sis-boom-bah! Gooooooooo Martin!
Tommy Petersson (Tommyp)
Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 9:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab) on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 09:37 pm

Rah, rah, sis-boom-bah! Gooooooooo Martin! Exactly...
Martin Schwenk (Trickymartin)
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 6:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

:)

Given the words we already have, a "the" seems to be missing. (Though if thats true, there was an answer up there that was a bit misleading...)
Tommy Petersson (Tommyp)
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 8:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Martin Schwenk (Trickymartin) on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 06:28 am

Given the words we already have, a "the" Exactly seems to be missing. (Though if thats true, there was an answer up there that was a bit misleading...) That may be so, I'm a bit "ring-rusty". I hardly even remember how to write a...

******************** SPOILER ********************


Rake you over the coals


This is an idiom which roughly means "Demand an explanation from you" or "Lecture you".

If we then look at the original puzzle statement:
The playboy thought a second or more than necessary as per usual when talking about lignite.

Five words are taken from the green parts, and used in the same order (don't want to make this too difficult this time) in the idiom:

playboy --> rake (a synonym, also means libertine)
second --> you (from very early English grammar, I, you, he, she...)
more --> over (exceeding, above...)
per --> the (as in "fifty pence the pound")
lignite --> coals (brown coals)

Many thanks for your participation, and congrats to Barbara and Martin!
Martin Schwenk (Trickymartin)
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 10:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Seeing all that (color) formating, you do not seem ring-rusty to me at all :)

Hope you don't mind me spamming your post... I cannot send you the Swedish version of the translation before tomorrow night. As it turned out, the swedish translation is in the book already (opposed to being here on file), scattered over a few pages. Which means she or me will have to type it first before we can send it, thus the delay. Just in case you kept wondering why you didn't get it yet.
Tommy Petersson (Tommyp)
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 5:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No prob, neither for the "spamming" nor for the delay. Since I need help from my wife (and/or daughter) I want to make it as easy on them as possible.

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