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Archive through March 10, 2005Sam Greene22 3-10-05  4:05 pm
Archive through March 14, 2005Chuck Raby22 3-14-05  7:11 pm
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Sam Greene (Pandora)
Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 7:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is this something people could do? to encourage birds to the area? i.e. putting out food? are vehicles relevant?
Chuck Raby (Wildcard)
Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 8:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Sam Greene (Pandora) on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 07:27 pm:

Is this something people could do? Yes to encourage birds to the area? noish i.e. putting out food? are vehicles relevant? no to both
Sam Greene (Pandora)
Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 8:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the petition more about conservation in general than just the birds?
Chuck Raby (Wildcard)
Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 9:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Sam Greene (Pandora) on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 08:46 pm:

Was the petition more about conservation in general than just the birds? No...this is a wrong path
Chuck Raby (Wildcard)
Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 6:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

RECAP:
There will be 219 million more each year if Mark gets his way.

The 219 million relates to birds that are both dead and alive (time factor relevant). They are not of one species. There are not 219 million birds right now, there are more (look around. They’re everywhere). The relevant birds are not seabirds (in Wisconsin?) or birds of prey. These birds are not dying-out, endangered or protected in any way. These birds are real birds that start as eggs. The birds do not eat anything relevant or reside somewhere relevant (other than Wisconsin). The birds would not cause a decrease in the number of something else and are not considered a nuisance. But this is an area for exploration.

Having more birds would increase the number of things that eat birds, but this is not the path that concerns Mark. The birds do not do anything specific other than sing. There is nothing these birds do that existing birds do not already do. Bird droppings are not relevant. The fact that birds fly is not particularly relevant except that it is a characteristic of these birds. These birds are not really influential in any way other than being as pleasant as birds usually are.

This puzzle would not work if Mark liked sheep instead. Shakespeare is not relevant. Mating and pollution are not relevant. The birds in question are not nocturnal.

A big part of this puzzle is that Mark likes these birds and would be happier if there were more of them.

Bird adoption is not relevant. There would be a yope-ish negative impact on Mark and the environment if the number of birds remained the same or decreased. Mark is not really a birdwatcher, just a bird lover. Breeding of birds, importation and escapism from a zoo are all not relevant.

Mark intended to find a way to preserve this number of birds somehow. Not decrease their number. If Mark gets his way, it will be because the government makes a change and others will help. Part of this process will include Mark showing others the need to increase something and reduce something. Mark believes that there being 219 million more birds will be beneficial in some way….to him, to conservation, and to Wisconsin.

Mark has submitted a relevant petition to make a change. The petition does not call for any change involving birds. The change would also, not cause the increase in something that would bring more birds. People would be required to do something to make this thing happen. Noise is relevant but misleading.

BLOOPER: The effort is to (some extent) get rid of one or more of the birds' predators.

Birdsong is only relevant in that Mark likes it. The birds are also attractive, but this is only relevant because people like to look at pretty birds. These birds would have a positive effect on the environment.

Mark is an American adult human male. Mark is not famous or anyone that I know personally and his wealth is not relevant. Mark’s profession, exact age, and where he lives are not particularly relevant. However, because the story is true, we will say Mark lives in Wisconsin.

There is no similarity between this puzzle and the fact that Ravens are clipped so they do not leave the Tower of London. Mark has a relevant hobby.

OTHER BLOOPER: Would this puzzle work with anything other than these birds? no This is not entirely correct. It is possible that the puzzle could work with something other than birds. It seems comically unlikely, but I suppose I will have to admit it is possible.
Tim A. Dowd (Bodo)
Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 3:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hmmm...is there anything relevant about Altamont Pass here in Cafilnoria (you know, where 580 goes over into the central valley, just past Livermore)?

Kitties relevant? Pesticides? Bushes with berries on them?
Chuck Raby (Wildcard)
Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 4:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Tim A. Dowd (Bodo) on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 03:59 pm:

Hmmm...is there anything relevant about Altamont Pass here in Cafilnoria (you know, where 580 goes over into the central valley, just past Livermore)? If my old memory holds, no

Kitties relevant? Yes! Pesticides? Bushes with berries on them?
No to both
Tim A. Dowd (Bodo)
Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 5:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

In re. Altamont I was thinking of the big windmills for energy generation--there's a lot of fuss over birdies trying to fly through the blades and...well, let's just say that their attempts are usually not wholly successful. I think they featured 'em (the windmills) in the beginning scenes of a movie with whatsherface--Ms. Antonio Banderas--Pacific Heights, maybe?

Is he a bird watcher? Does he want kitties registered? Made to stay indoors? Blocked from birdie access in some way?
Chuck Raby (Wildcard)
Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 5:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Tim A. Dowd (Bodo) on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 05:33 pm:


In re. Altamont I was thinking of the big windmills for energy generation--there's a lot of fuss over birdies trying to fly through the blades and...well, let's just say that their attempts are usually not wholly successful. I think they featured 'em (the windmills) in the beginning scenes of a movie with whatsherface--Ms. Antonio Banderas--Pacific Heights, maybe?

Ah...yes....or no, rather. No windmills are relevant. Neither is Ms. Antonio Banderas...nor Zorro....or Ms. Zeta-Jones

Is he a bird watcher? More of a bird lover, but I suppose you could say that Does he want kitties registered? No Made to stay indoors? No Blocked from birdie access in some way? You could say that....misleading. Not really blocked exactly. But continue to explore this line of thinking.
Tim A. Dowd (Bodo)
Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 3:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Belled? Otherwise encumbered such that they'd not decimate (or even octimate, or heximate, or whatever) the birdie population? Is the idea to lessen the kitties' effectivity in re. bird murderification?
Chuck Raby (Wildcard)
Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 4:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Tim A. Dowd (Bodo) on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 03:30 am:

Belled? No Otherwise encumbered such that they'd not decimate (or even octimate, or heximate, or whatever) the birdie population? Not really encumbered, no Is the idea to lessen the kitties' effectivity in re. bird murderification? Yope...think about this.
Chuck Raby (Wildcard)
Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 11:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

HINT: The change proposed here directly relates to the cats not the birds.
Tricia Harvey (Trixie)
Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 11:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ho ho! Kitties again, eh, Wildcard? :)
Did Mark want to impose a curfew on cats being outdoors at certain hours of the day?
Chuck Raby (Wildcard)
Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 11:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Tricia Harvey (Trixie) on Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 11:44 pm:

Ho ho! Kitties again, eh, Wildcard? Couldn't resist
Did Mark want to impose a curfew on cats being outdoors at certain hours of the day? No

People here seem to like kitty puzzles.
Dref (Dref)
Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 10:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is Kitty byproduct of some kind relevant? their mobility? their feeding? their claws being clipped?
Chuck Raby (Wildcard)
Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 7:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Dref (Dref) on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 10:07 pm:

Is Kitty byproduct of some kind relevant? their mobility? their feeding? their claws being clipped? thier feeding is the only one
Dref (Dref)
Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 10:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does their food harm the birds directly? indirectly? do the cats get a taste for the birds because of their feed?
Chuck Raby (Wildcard)
Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 3:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Dref (Dref) on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 10:02 pm:

Does their food harm the birds directly? yope....FA lurking indirectly? do the cats get a taste for the birds because of their feed? No
Dref (Dref)
Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 9:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the food made from birds? poisonous to them? did it incite the cats? confuse the cats?
Chuck Raby (Wildcard)
Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 5:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Dref (Dref) on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 09:34 pm:

Was the food made from birds? Yessish poisonous to them? No did it incite the cats? confuse the cats? No to both
Dref (Dref)
Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 9:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the food made from a bird byproduct? were the birds killed to produce the food?
Erick Robertson (Vir4030)
Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 3:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Been gone a long time, but I'm back!

Are the birds the food? Are the kitties eating the birds? Will the change stop the kitties from eating the birds? Reduce the numbers of birds getting eaten by kitties?

Will the change...
cause the kitties to not be able to access the birds?
keep the kitties in a separate area as the birds?
keep the kitties from approaching the birds?
cause the kitties to begin dancing with the birds instead of eating them?
cause the kitties to not be hungry so they won't need to eat birds?
cause the kitties to not see the birds?
cause kitties to die?
cause birds to die?
cause kitties to live which otherwise wouldn't?
cause birds to live which otherwise wouldn't?
Chuck Raby (Wildcard)
Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 5:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Dref (Dref) on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 09:09 pm:

Was the food made from a bird byproduct? no were the birds killed to produce the food? yes

By Erick Robertson (Vir4030) on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 03:51 am:

Been gone a long time, but I'm back!

Are the birds the food? YES! Are the kitties eating the birds? They are Will the change stop the kitties from eating the birds?yes Reduce the numbers of birds getting eaten by kitties? that too

Will the change...
cause the kitties to not be able to access the birds? yes, but misleading
keep the kitties in a separate area as the birds? no
keep the kitties from approaching the birds? yes, but...
cause the kitties to begin dancing with the birds instead of eating them? no...but wouldn't that be cute?
cause the kitties to not be hungry so they won't need to eat birds? yes, but misleading
cause the kitties to not see the birds? that too, but also misleading
cause kitties to die? YES!!
cause birds to die? no
cause kitties to live which otherwise wouldn't? No
cause birds to live which otherwise wouldn't? see above
Shawn Franchi (Doctapeppa)
Posted on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 3:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does he want to charge the kitties with attempted murder and first degree homicide and have a judge give them the death sentence with no chance for parole? Did he call his attorney? Did he call the Postmaster General? Does he want it to be illegal for kitties to live? Does he want to make it legal to hunt the kitties? ect.? ect.? So on and so forth? Would any people be upset with him if he got his way? Is 219,000,000 particularly important? relevant? irrelevant? neither? both? ect?
LEWIS ZEITERS (Lzeiters)
Posted on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 2:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is he trying to establish? revamp the existing animal control system? Build a new pound?
Chuck Raby (Wildcard)
Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 10:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Shawn Franchi (Doctapeppa) on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 03:48 am:

Does he want to charge the kitties with attempted murder and first degree homicide and have a judge give them the death sentence with no chance for parole? No Did he call his attorney? No Did he call the Postmaster General? No Does he want it to be illegal for kitties to live? No Does he want to make it legal to hunt the kitties? Yes ect.? ect.? So on and so forth? That too Would any people be upset with him if he got his way? Yes Is 219,000,000 particularly important? relevant? irrelevant? neither? both? ect? Only because it is a true story

Well that about covers it. Schpoylur to follow.

By LEWIS ZEITERS (Lzeiters) on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 02:21 pm:

Is he trying to establish? revamp the existing animal control system? Build a new pound? No to all
Chuck Raby (Wildcard)
Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2005 - 10:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

*********** SPOILER **********

This puzzle is based on a true story published a couple months back. A man by the name of Mark Smith is seeking to make it legal to hunt roaming domestic cats. Mark has claimed that 219 million birds will be saved by allowing the hunting of domestic cats. The entire story follows. Thanks all. This was a great deal more complex than I intended. Sorry about that.

Brenda Ingersoll Wisconsin State Journal
Hunters across the state will be asked to vote next month on whether cats should be hunted.
A La Crosse man who hunts and traps wants to make free- roaming domestic cats an "unprotected species" that could be shot at will by anyone with a small-game hunting license.
Mark Smith's suggestion will be placed before hunters on April 11 at the Wisconsin Conservation Congress spring hearings in each of the state's 72 counties. Smith, a 48-year- old firefighter for the city of La Crosse, said any cat not under its owner's direct control, or which does not have a collar, should be considered fair game.
"If I'm in the woods and see a cat that doesn't have a collar, then I could shoot it," Smith said. "It gives people some leeway if they want to remove cats."
He added, "I get up in the morning and if there's new snow, there's cat tracks under my bird feeder . . . I look at them as an invasive species, plain and simple."
Millions of birds eaten UW-Madison wildlife ecology professor Stanley Temple, who trapped more than 100 cats and analyzed their stomach contents during a four-year study, has estimated that millions of birds are killed by rural cats in Wisconsin each year.
Still, Smith's proposal horrifies cat lovers.
"We're opening up a whole can of worms here, where they could be shot by anyone anytime," said Dr. Susan Krebsbach, a veterinarian who is president of the Dane County Veterinary Medical Association and founder of Dane County Friends of Ferals, a group that has trapped and neutered nearly 6,000 feral cats since 2001 with support from the Dane County Humane Society. About 30 percent of the trapped cats were adopted, while the rest were returned to rural "colonies" where they can roam, but are fed and cared for by volunteers.
Humane thing to do A 1991-2002 study of "trap, neuter and return" used at a free-roaming cat colony at the University of Central Florida showed the cat population dropped by 66 percent, Krebsbach said. "We know trap and kill just doesn't work. It's standard procedure that's been used for decades in the U.S., yet several shelter surveys show the overpopulation of unwanted cats persists," she said. "All the scientific evidence leads to trap, neuter and return . . . It's also the right thing to do, the humane thing to do."
Cat enthusiasts Cheryl Balazs, Ted O'Donnell and Adam Bauknecht are trying to organize opposition to Smith's proposal. O'Donnell, a co-owner of MadCat Pet Supplies, recently set up a Web site, dontshootthecat.com, to inform people about it.
"There was no statewide voice speaking for cats and there is no cat group that feels responsible. We knew we had to do something," O'Donnell said. "I'd like to think we could be a no-kill state, like Utah."
Bauknecht said, "I don't think it's appropriate to be hunting cats. Cats are seen as a pet and not wild by most people."
Balazs said the fledgling group calls itself the Wisconsin Cat Action Team. "We're trying to put together a network of animal welfare organizations around the state that will collect information on how we're serving cats and how we can move forward and be a no-kill state," she said.
Support for cat hunt Smith's proposal was approved last year by the La Crosse County branch of the Conservation Congress on a vote of 53-1, according to Al Phelan, liaison between the state Department of Natural Resources and the Conservation Congress. The Conservation Congress, a five-member elected body whose duty is to advise the DNR and Legislature on natural resources issues, decided to put the issue before the public at the spring hearings.
Smith's proposal asks that the DNR take steps to define free-roaming feral domestic cats with no obvious signs of ownership as an unprotected species, such as opossums, skunks and weasels (which can be hunted any time with no bag limit).
However, legislation would have to be passed to permit hunting of cats, said DNR attorney Tim Andryk.
"We (the DNR) don't have authority to regulate domestic animals. Legislation would have to be passed to accomplish this," Andryk said. "You might also have to amend laws relating to abuse of domestic animals."
If Smith's proposal passes when put to a vote at the spring hearings, its impact would be purely as "an advisory recommendation to the state Legislature," Andryk said.
Phelan said that a legislator could then draft language adding cats to the list of public nuisances, so that landowners "could kill them, trap them or move them."
Sen. Neal Kedzie, R-Elkhorn, said the Conservation Congress is a useful resource for the DNR and Legislature "by making us aware of the pulse of the gun-and-hook community," but declined further comment on whether legislators might act.
"It would be inappropriate for me, as chair of the Natural Resources and Transportation Committee, to comment on this matter or any proposal before the Congress, as it may be seen as attempting to unduly influence the Conservation Congress process," Kedzie said.
Reps. Spencer Black, D- Madison, and Gary Hebl, D- Sun Prairie, both members of the Natural Resources Committee, could not be reached.
Cats aren't natives Professor Temple said he would argue that legislation is not needed, because the DNR actually does have the authority to declare rural cats an unprotected species.
"House mice, Norway rats, pigeons, starlings - all are nonnative species and not protected in Wisconsin and can be trapped and killed," Temple said. "The logic behind cats is they are the same . . . if somebody doesn't claim ownership, they become a nonnative wildlife species and are not entitled to protection by the state," he said.
Temple added that "it's obviously a very controversial proposal. I think there really is a basis for having a debate about it."
Sheri Carr, senior humane officer at the Dane County Humane Society, said the group has not yet taken a position on the proposal, but wants cat owners to abide by their local ordinances and not let their animals roam.
Shoot a neighbor's cat? "I would hate to think that tame, owned cats who happen to slip out would be at risk of being deemed a wild, unprotected species," Carr said. "It's a delicate (ecological) balance out there, but does that mean people should be able to shoot their neighbor's cat? Probably not."
Mark Smith, the man who brought the proposal, said he is not a cat hater and has owned cats in the past.
"They don't belong in the environment. All I want is for people to be responsible for them," Smith said. "If I catch a cat in the yard in a live trap, I should be able to put that animal down."
Smith added, "There needs to be something to protect the average guy. Cruelty to animals is one thing. Dispatching them is another . . . What I'm trying to do here is make a distinction between a domestic cat and a feral cat. Domestic cats are under the ownership of an individual. If you open the door and kick your cat out at night, you've changed its status."
Karen Etter Hale, executive secretary of the Madison Audubon Society, said the society favors education as the best solution to bird predation by cats.
"I'm not sure redefining cats and having an open season on them is the best way to address the issue," she said. "The Madison Audubon Society believes all cats should be kept indoors. We might make an exception for working farm cats."
The DNR is concerned about the killing of small mammals and birds by pet and feral cats, said Bill Vander Zouwen, wildlife ecology section chief for game management.
"We urge owners to prevent their cats from roaming. That's always been our approach, rather than ask for authority to let hunters shoot cats," he said.
O'Donnell of the Wisconsin Cat Action Team said Smith's proposal "is a callous response to cats."
"There's more humane solutions," he said. "We as citizens should step up and solve the problem humanely."
Feral cats: Pros & cons A controversial proposal to permit the hunting of free- roaming, feral domestic cats that are uncollared and not under their owners' direct control will be brought before the Wisconsin Conservation Congress at its spring hearings April 11. Here are arguments for and against the proposal.
Pro:
• Will reduce bird deaths, estimated to be as high as 219 million per year.
• Will reduce small mammal deaths, increasing prey for hawks, owls, coyotes and foxes.
• Will restore ecological balance in rural areas.
Con:
• Cats sometimes escape to the outdoors, despite owners' best efforts.
• Good cat collars are "break- away" collars and can be lost, putting a cat at risk.
• Cats are pets and should never be hunted.
• Cats with implanted microchips for identification seldom wear collars.

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