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Archive through March 19, 2005John Morahan22 3-19-05  12:49 pm
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Fred Z (Dref)
Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2005 - 8:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the sentence true? false? misleading? this-ish did it have a double meaning? nodid the pot.murderer misunderstand it? no did it mention poison? no

Did the speaker commit to doing something? no such as making the poison? or making it stronger? and thwarted the murder attempt by not doing it? none of these

Or did he give the pot.murderer some bad advice? yes if so, regarding the effectiveness of the poison? this how much would be needed? how it should be prepared? delivered?

The pot.murderer's mistaken belief was a result of hearing the sentence, right? no directly?
John Morahan (Wunderland)
Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2005 - 8:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hm.

Did the speaker say anything else to the murderer?

Did he tell the pot.murderer (or... confirm the pot.murderer's already mistaken belief?) that the poison would be more effective than it was?

Did the pot.murderer think that the speaker would play any part in the murder, other than by giving this advice?

Is the speaker's occupation relevant? the murderer's?
Fred Z (Dref)
Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2005 - 8:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the speaker say anything else to the murderer? that is relevant, no

Did he tell the pot.murderer (or... confirm the pot.murderer's already mistaken belief?) that the poison would be more effective than it was? neither

Did the pot.murderer think that the speaker would play any part in the murder, other than by giving this advice? other than complicity by apparent inaction, NO

Is the speaker's occupation relevant? the murderer's? neither
John Morahan (Wunderland)
Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2005 - 9:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ah... so the speaker did something else to thwart the murder attempt, and the sentence just kept the pot.murderer in the dark about this?
He reported it to police? interfered directly with the poison? the food? the murderer?

Did he suggest using a stronger poison? making him seem to be very helpful?
Fred Z (Dref)
Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2005 - 9:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ah... so the speaker did something else to thwart the murder attempt, and the sentence just kept the pot.murderer in the dark about this? no, the speaker did nothing to stop the murder but the sentence! ;)
He reported it to police? interfered directly with the poison? the food? the murderer?

Did he suggest using a stronger poison? no making him seem to be very helpful? his statement did make the murderer think the sentence speaker was trying to be helpful
John Morahan (Wunderland)
Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 2:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Aargh!

Name time... if I may.
Murray: the potential murderer
Vic: the potential victim
Sam: the sentence speaker
ok?

Did Sam not do something that Murray was expecting him to do?

Did Murray actually put poison in Vic's food? Before the sentence was spoken? After? more than once? Did Vic eat the poisoned food?

Or did Murray put something other than poison in the food? before the sentence? after? more than once?

Murray had a mistaken belief about the effectiveness of the poison. Did he think it was more effective than it was? Less? or that it would have a different effect entirely?

Did Murray ask Sam for advice?
Fred Z (Dref)
Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 6:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Aargh! ;)

Name time... if I may.
Murray: the potential murderer
Vic: the potential victim
Sam: the sentence speaker
ok? I don't see why not.

Did Sam not do something that Murray was expecting him to do? no

Did Murray actually put poison in Vic's food? yes Before the sentence was spoken? After? this more than once? Did Vic eat the poisoned food? yes

Or did Murray put something other than poison in the food? before the sentence? after? more than once? none of these

Murray had a mistaken belief about the effectiveness of the poison. Did he think it was more effective than it was? yes Less? or that it would have a different effect entirely?

Did Murray ask Sam for advice? YES
John Morahan (Wunderland)
Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 6:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Sam advise Murray to poison Vic's food instead of murdering Vic some other way? not involving poison?

failing that... did Murray ask Sam for advice about poison? murder? or something else?

Do we need to find out where this is happening?
Fred Z (Dref)
Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 7:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Sam advise Murray to poison Vic's food instead of murdering Vic some other way? not involving poison? no to these

failing that... did Murray ask Sam for advice about poison? this murder? or something else?

Do we need to find out where this is happening? no
Benjamin Moore (Zenith)
Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 8:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does Sam know Vic?

Had Sam lied to Murray?
Or witheld some of the truth? (or both)

If Yes (to either):
• about the poison?
- about the application of the poison?
- about the relative strength of the poison? (i.e dosage)
- about the type of poison?
- about the speed of Vic's possible demise?

• about Sam's possible sympathies to Murray?
- about his possible involvement in the murder?

• about the health of Vic?
- about Vic's stamina?
- about Vic's immunity?
- about Vic's knowledge of poisons
- about anything else Vic might know that could help him in this situation?
- about Vic's connections with others (perhaps medical friends)
- about Vic's taste in food?
Fred Z (Dref)
Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 9:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does Sam know Vic? no, he has only heard of him due to his fame

Had Sam lied to Murray? no
Or witheld some of the truth? (or both) no

If Yes (to either):
about the poison?
- about the application of the poison?
- about the relative strength of the poison? (i.e dosage)
- about the type of poison?
- about the speed of Vic's possible demise?

about Sam's possible sympathies to Murray?
- about his possible involvement in the murder?

about the health of Vic?
- about Vic's stamina?
- about Vic's immunity?
- about Vic's knowledge of poisons
- about anything else Vic might know that could help him in this situation?
- about Vic's connections with others (perhaps medical friends)
- about Vic's taste in food? Nice list, sorry it does not apply
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 10:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Brief recap?
Fred Z (Dref)
Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 10:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

But of course. I'll have one up a bit later.
Fred Z (Dref)
Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 6:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

RECAP

Location: North America, late 1700's

Vic is a famous personage who is targeted for death by Murray. The plan is to put something poisonous in Vic's food at some later date. However, Sam gets wind of this and being a supporter of Vic intends to stop it.

He ingratiates himself to Murray by pretending to be sympathetic to his cause. By doing so he finds himself talking with Murray one day about the plan. During this discussion Sam says one sentence (a piece of advice) that manages to thwart the plan. Murray is under the mistaken belief that the poison he eventually decides to use is actually poisonous when in fact it is not. Sam is NOT responsible for this mistaken belief.

To answer:

What did Murray intend to use?
Why does Murray believe it to be poisonous?
What exactly did Sam say?
Ed Mason (Logician)
Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 10:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So would Vic have never died anyway?

Did Sam say something that continued Murrays belief in the item being poisonous?

Was it a common belief in the late 1700s that this item was poisonous? Would a reasonable person nowadays believe that this item was poisonous?
Fred Z (Dref)
Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 10:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So would Vic have never died anyway? no, if Sam hadn't said what he said, Vic would have died

Did Sam say something that continued Murrays belief in the item being poisonous? no

Was it a common belief in the late 1700s that this item was poisonous? yes Would a reasonable person nowadays believe that this item was poisonous? no
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 11:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is there any link between what Sam told Murray and his the latter's ignorance about the substance?

The thing said to Murray:
About Vic?
About someone else?
About something else?
About a location?
About a time?

Is Murray a disembodied Skull from an "undead" pirate belonging to one of Lechucks hoards? ;-)

Is the mock poison from a plant substance?
Ed Mason (Logician)
Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 11:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Sam suggest a 'poison' that he knew wouldn't have any effect, but Murray, holding 'common belief', believed would?
John Morahan (Wunderland)
Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 2:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Murray originally planning to use a different poison? one that actually would have worked?
and Sam advises him that:
it won't work?
or it might not work? (which is technically true?)
or it will have some side effect? that will adversely affect Murray? or give him away?
or, he just advises him not to use it, without giving a reason?

so Murray changes his mind and decides to use the non-poisonous poison instead?
Fred Z (Dref)
Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 4:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is there any link between what Sam told Murray and his the latter's ignorance about the substance? yes

The thing said to Murray:
About Vic?
About someone else?
About something else? this
About a location?
About a time?

Is Murray a disembodied Skull from an "undead" pirate belonging to one of Lechucks hoards? ;-) MI on the brain, eh? Take a look at the "Sharp Writing" puzzle. ;)

Is the mock poison from a plant substance? yessish

By Ed Mason (Logician) on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 11:15 pm:

Did Sam suggest a 'poison' that he knew wouldn't have any effect, but Murray, holding 'common belief', believed would? yes

Was Murray originally planning to use a different poison? yope one that actually would have worked? yes
and Sam advises him that:
it won't work?
or it might not work? (which is technically true?)
or it will have some side effect? that will adversely affect Murray? or give him away?
or, he just advises him not to use it, without giving a reason? none of these, but right forest

so Murray changes his mind and decides to use the non-poisonous poison instead? yes
Benjamin Moore (Zenith)
Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 5:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is this a botched assassination?

Is Murray originally not going to use poison at all, but Sam suggests the poison used as an impersonal and discreet manner to assassinate Vic?

Are tomatoes relevent to this puzzle? :)
John Morahan (Wunderland)
Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 10:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was it believed to be a poison in the usual sense? or just something that could be poisonous if taken the wrong way, or at the wrong time, or by the wrong person etc.?

Did Sam lead Murray to believe that Vic was a vampire and could be poisoned with holy water?
Fred Z (Dref)
Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 11:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was this a botched assassination? noish

Is Murray originally not going to use poison at all, but Sam suggests the poison used as an impersonal and discreet manner to assassinate Vic? no

Are tomatoes relevent to this puzzle? Yup! :) That is two out of three, so now what did Sam say?

By John Morahan (Wunderland) on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 10:42 pm:

Was it believed to be a poison in the usual sense? yes or just something that could be poisonous if taken the wrong way, or at the wrong time, or by the wrong person etc.?

Did Sam lead Murray to believe that Vic was a vampire and could be poisoned with holy water? no
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 11:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

tomatoes were once thought to be poisonous as they are related to deadly nightshade -relevant?
Fred Z (Dref)
Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 11:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

yes
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 12:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Sam tell Murray where he could obtain some tomatoes?
Or did he say that if tomatoes were added to Vic's vegetable soup / spaghetti bolognaise, that he wouldn't know the difference?
Fred Z (Dref)
Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 12:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

no to both, sorry
Benjamin Moore (Zenith)
Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 12:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

hmmm, you've only answered half of my question...

Is Murray originally not going to use poison at all?

OK, does Vic subscribe to the same paranoia that tomatoes are poisoness?
If so, Murray would have to feed Vic tomatoes discreetly, so that Vic wouldn't notice them. Hence, How are the tomatoes presented?
- whole?
- sliced?
- diced?
- juiced?
- sun-dried soaked in vinegar? :)

>> relevent?

[Philosophical Rhetoric] Is it possible for Sam to indicate tomatoes as a poison, truthfully, if Sam believes them not to be?


anything along these lines?
>> "Tomatoes are a member of the nightshade family, why don't you use them?"
>> "Red things, like tomatoes, are often poisonous."
>> "it has been said..."


Does Sam's statement indicate the tomatoes in any way?
Fred Z (Dref)
Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 2:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

hmmm, you've only answered half of my question... I'm not sure which question you refer to.

Is Murray originally not going to use poison at all? no

OK, does Vic subscribe to the same paranoia that tomatoes are poisoness? this is not recorded, irrel
If so, Murray would have to feed Vic tomatoes discreetly, so that Vic wouldn't notice them. irrel Hence, How are the tomatoes presented? irrel, the method of planting the tomatoes is never discussed
- whole?
- sliced?
- diced?
- juiced?
- sun-dried soaked in vinegar?

>> relevant? no

[Philosophical Rhetoric] Is it possible for Sam to indicate tomatoes as a poison, truthfully, if Sam believes them not to be? He does not ever actually indicate them as a poison, Murray just assumed he did

anything along these lines?
>> "Tomatoes are a member of the nightshade family, why don't you use them?"
>> "Red things, like tomatoes, are often poisonous."
>> "it has been said..." Sorry, not like this, the first one is the closest though


Does Sam's statement indicate the tomatoes in any way? He mentions them, yes
John Morahan (Wunderland)
Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 1:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Murray ask Sam's advice about:
deadly nightshade?
things related to deadly nightshade?
another specific poison?
poison in general?
tomatoes?

Does he tell Murray some general information about tomatoes? such as where to find them? and Murray assumes he is suggesting that they be used as a poison?
Fred Z (Dref)
Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 1:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Murray ask Sam's advice about:
deadly nightshade?
things related to deadly nightshade?
another specific poison?
poison in general? THIS, follow
tomatoes?

Does he tell Murray some general information about tomatoes? such as where to find them? and Murray assumes he is suggesting that they be used as a poison? no, even more basic than that
John Morahan (Wunderland)
Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 1:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Murray specifically ask Sam to suggest a poison?

or was it more like
Murray: "Do you know anything about poison?"
Sam: "I only know about tomatoes!"
...?
Fred Z (Dref)
Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 12:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Murray specifically ask Sam to suggest a poison? no

or was it more like
Murray: "Do you know anything about poison?"
Sam: "I only know about tomatoes!"
...? no, but OTRT...he didn't specifically ask for advice...however...
John Morahan (Wunderland)
Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 1:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Murray just hint that he wanted advice?
He is planning to use poison, but doesn't know what poison to use?

Murray: "I wonder what would be the best poison to use?"
Sam: "I suppose you could try tomatoes."
...?
Fred Z (Dref)
Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 7:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Murray just hint that he wanted advice? noish
He is planning to use poison, but doesn't know what poison to use? yes

Murray: "I wonder what would be the best poison to use?"
Sam: "I suppose you could try tomatoes." yes, quite close, spoiler ahead
...?
Fred Z (Dref)
Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 7:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

***** SPOILER *****


During the American Revolution, a Tory intends to kill George Washington. A Patriot, in order to disrupt the Tory's plans, befriends him and pretends to sympathize with his plot.

One day, the Tory decides he is going to use poison to carry out his deeds. He can't decide which to use, so he begins to muse out loudly in the presence of the Patriot. The Patriot, knowing despite the then common belief that tomatoes are poisonous that they are actually quite harmless, offhandedly remarks, "Just feed him some tomatoes."

The tomatoes are is duly planted in one of the General's meals weeks later, but to the Tory's shock, nothing happens.
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 7:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Fred, is this a true story?

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