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Benjamin Moore (Zenith)
Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 8:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Something to do with the development of hearing aids? no Advances in modern technology owe their origin to him? yes, for svv of 'owe'
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 3:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wild guess time, again...

Anything to do with silent practice keyboards?
Benjamin Moore (Zenith)
Posted on Thursday, July 28, 2005 - 4:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wild guess time, again...

Anything to do with silent practice keyboards? no
Lisa (Dlcygnet)
Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 3:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

*reviews refocus and takes another swing*

The benefit to Beethoven, was it...
physical?
mental?
emotional?
spiritual?
financial?
musical?
patentable?

The benefit to society, was it...
physical?
mental?
emotional?
spiritual?
financial?
musical?
patentable?
Benjamin Moore (Zenith)
Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 4:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

*reviews refocus and takes another swing*

The benefit to Beethoven, was it...
physical?
mental?
emotional?
spiritual?
financial?
musical? predominately this, but in fact all to some degree...
patentable? although, this was a GOOD question... :)

The benefit to society, was it...
physical?
mental?
emotional?
spiritual?
financial?
musical? again predominately this.
patentable?
Lisa (Dlcygnet)
Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 10:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

To a degree... is copyrightable a better word?

Does this revolve around a piece he created? Does it revolve around a musical process he created?
Does this revolve around a piano modification?
Does this revolve around a technique?
Anything musical I haven't thought of yet?
Benjamin Moore (Zenith)
Posted on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 10:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

To a degree... is copyrightable a better word? no

Does this revolve around a piece he created? Does it revolve around a musical process he created? not a particular piece
Does this revolve around a piano modification? YES
Does this revolve around a technique? not really
Anything musical I haven't thought of yet? Nope. your pretty close now.
Lisa (Dlcygnet)
Posted on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 8:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wait... does it have to do with harpsichords vs. pianos? Was the piano/a piano created specifically for his benefit? Did he work on harpsichords, but find he couldn't hear/see what was happening musically? Did he get a piano specially made that could stay propped open so he could hear it/see it? Thus, today we have those fancy open pianos.
Lewis Zeiters (Lzeiters)
Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 6:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

was it the fact that he had to bang on the piano so hard to hear it that he had a tendency to break strings, leading to the invention of more resilient materials for the strings?
Benjamin Moore (Zenith)
Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 2:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wait... does it have to do with harpsichords vs. pianos? no Was the piano/a piano created specifically for his benefit? Did he work on harpsichords, but find he couldn't hear/see what was happening musically? Harpsichords of the time were gernerally in the open shape anyway. The lid was often quite decorated, as a piece of art. Did he get a piano specially made that could stay propped open so he could hear it/see it? Thus, today we have those fancy open pianos. The piano actually began life in the flat format. The idea behind the lid on a grand piano is to allow more sound out when open.

Was it the fact that he had to bang on the piano so hard to hear it that he had a tendency to break strings, leading to the invention of more resilient materials for the strings? This is Very close, But in that case Beethovan's deafness wouldn't have been a blessing for him, just future pianists...
Lewis Zeiters (Lzeiters)
Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 6:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did it lead to the development of the upright piano?
Benjamin Moore (Zenith)
Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 11:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did it lead to the development of the upright piano? no, but you're on the right track...
Lisa (Dlcygnet)
Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 12:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does this involve some sort of development that made it easier for him to play? Visual development? I.e. Is that how black and white keys became popular features on pianos?
Kapil Kapur (Dinkie)
Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 6:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

better acoustic design of the venues he was playing in ?
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 6:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Zenith is one the right track with his question about the upright piano... so

the development of the spinet piano?

more generally, did the effect have anything to do with the conformation of the piano?
if so, the pedals?
the keyboard?
the soundboard?
the strings?
the hammers?
the tuning?
Lewis Zeiters (Lzeiters)
Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 6:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

did it involve the change from using one string per key to three to provide more sound?
Jennifer Warde (Tigger32382)
Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 10:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Involve plucking (harpsichord) vs. hammering (piano)of strings? Hammering would allow for vibrations to continue so he could understand better what he was creating...
Benjamin Moore (Zenith)
Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 3:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does this involve some sort of development that made it easier for him to play? no Visual development? I.e. Is that how black and white keys became popular features on pianos? no

better acoustic design of the venues he was playing in ? no, but ORT

Zeiters is one the right track with his question about the upright piano... so

the development of the spinet piano? no

more generally, did the effect have anything to do with the conformation of the piano? yessish
if so, the pedals?
the keyboard?
the soundboard? this
the strings? and this
the hammers? and this
the tuning? and this

did it involve the change from using one string per key to three to provide more sound? it may have, unknown

Involve plucking (harpsichord) vs. hammering (piano)of strings? no Hammering would allow for vibrations to continue so he could understand better what he was creating...
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Friday, September 09, 2005 - 7:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hmmm.

Are music boxes relevant in any way here? Any connection to the technology to make a music box and the technology to make a player piano?
Benjamin Moore (Zenith)
Posted on Saturday, September 10, 2005 - 4:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hmmm. indeed

Are music boxes relevant in any way here? no Any connection to the technology to make a music box and the technology to make a player piano? a pianola? no
Lewis Zeiters (Lzeiters)
Posted on Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 9:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

did the effect have to do with developments that had the result of giving the piano a greater dynamic range? (i.e. soft vs. loud sounds)
Benjamin Moore (Zenith)
Posted on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 8:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

did the effect have to do with developments that had the result of giving the piano a greater dynamic range? (i.e. soft vs. loud sounds) yes, though there is a little more to it...
Jennifer Warde (Tigger32382)
Posted on Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 2:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Adding the pedals? creating a certain kind of piano, like a grand?
Benjamin Moore (Zenith)
Posted on Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 4:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Adding the pedals? no creating a certain kind of piano, like a grand? no
Tim A. Dowd (Bodo)
Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 3:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Keeping in mind that the name of the piano is actually "piaonforte" or "softloud," which was because it was able to play different dynamics on the fly vs. the plucked keyboard instruments...

Anything about standardizing pitch (e. g. currently the recognized standard is based on a 440 A, although some groups have been taking it higher for a brighter sound--piano tuners hate that)? The (Western-standard) well-tempered 12 note scale (although I thought that was Bach's fault)?
Benjamin Moore (Zenith)
Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 6:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Anything about standardizing pitch no (e. g. currently the recognized standard is based on a 440 A, although some groups have been taking it higher for a brighter sound--piano tuners hate that)? and the french take it down to 438, or 414 for Baroque music The (Western-standard) well-tempered 12 note scale (although I thought that was Bach's fault)? I thought it was Pythagoras'
Benjamin Moore (Zenith)
Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 7:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

As a hint, Take a good look at these posts:
Lewis Zeiters (Lzeiters) on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 06:13 am
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab) on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 06:09 am

Think about
Pitch, Strings and Soundboard.
Lewis Zeiters (Lzeiters)
Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 10:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they come up with a new (mechanically speaking)way of tuning a piano? One that resulted in much higher tension on the strings, which necessitated the development of better strings and a stronger, stiffer soundboard?

Was it a change from using "catgut", etc. and wooden soundboards to using metal strings and frame?
Benjamin Moore (Zenith)
Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 10:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they come up with a new (mechanically speaking)way of tuning a piano? yessish One that resulted in much higher tension on the strings, which necessitated the development of better strings and a stronger, stiffer soundboard? Yope

Was it a change from using "catgut", etc. and wooden soundboards to using metal strings and frame? Yes
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 5:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I apologize for dropping out, but I really don't know enough about the mechanics and history of the piano to ask sensible questions at this point. I'll probably have to confine myself to wild-guesses for a while...
Lewis Zeiters (Lzeiters)
Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 6:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

the development resulted in the higher string tension? if so, was this due to the new materials used? or was it because they could afford to since the new materials were so much stronger?

change in tuning: cause? or effect?
change in materials: cause? or effect?
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 7:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The damper pedal? The una corda pedal?
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 3:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he have his piano strung with harp wires?
Benjamin Moore (Zenith)
Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 2:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I apologize for dropping out, but I really don't know enough about the mechanics and history of the piano to ask sensible questions at this point. I'll probably have to confine myself to wild-guesses for a while... not to worry. This puzzle is very close to being solve, especially the mechanical part...

the development resulted in the higher string tension? Higher string tension usually just means higher notes... or otherwise longer pianos if so, was this due to the new materials used? yes or was it because they could afford to since the new materials were so much stronger?

change in tuning: cause? or effect? this
change in materials: cause? thisish or effect?
not quite sure how a change in materials could be an effect in a piano...

The damper pedal? The una corda pedal? FA. But thank you. Until now, I didn't know what the proper name for the soft pedal was. The sostenuto pedal isn't relevant either :)

Did he have his piano strung with harp wires? not as far as I am aware: (probably) irrelevant
Tony (E20)
Posted on Monday, October 10, 2005 - 1:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Some clarification and perhaps refocusing questions ...

This puzzle involves some development in the construction of pianos?
Which occurred during Beethoven's lifetime?
And affected his composing?
Other people also received a blessing? Is this because of some improved piano design? Or because of the benefit derived from listening to the compositions of Beethoven?

I got a little lost in the technical questions, so these might already have been answered. I'll ask anyway...
Does it involve pianos where the strings are horizontal? vertical? both? the transistion between the two designs?
Does it involve extending the keyboard to provide a greater range of notes?

Beethoven's deafness is relevant?
Did the fact that he could not hear more "modern" pianos encourage him to compose in a way which would not have been possible had he been able to hear them?
Did he, in fact, believe that the modern pianos were actually better than they really were? so his compositions were, in some sense, ahead of the technology of his day?
Benjamin Moore (Zenith)
Posted on Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 8:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This puzzle involves some development in the construction of pianos? yes
Which occurred during Beethoven's lifetime? NO
And affected his composing? NO
Other people also received a blessing? yes Is this because of some improved piano design? Or because of the benefit derived from listening to the compositions of Beethoven? this

I got a little lost in the technical questions, so these might already have been answered. I'll ask anyway...
Does it involve pianos where the strings are horizontal? vertical? both? this the transistion between the two designs?
Does it involve extending the keyboard to provide a greater range of notes? no

Beethoven's deafness is relevant? most definately
Did the fact that he could not hear more "modern" pianos encourage him to compose in a way which would not have been possible had he been able to hear them? NO
Did he, in fact, believe that the modern pianos were actually better than they really were? technically no, but... so his compositions were, in some sense, ahead of the technology of his day? YES
Benjamin Moore (Zenith)
Posted on Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 8:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That's close enough for a $poiler so...

::::::::::::::::: SPOILER :::::::::::::::::
As Tony last mentioned, in Beethovan's time, the piano was not the engineering marval that it is today. The piano really wasn't a high performance concert piece that Beethovan's compositions transformed it into. In Howard Goodall's Big Bang on pianos, he points out, "... quite apart from Beethovan's deafness, He could not have heard his pieces played this way..." as the engineering of the piano really wasn't up to it. I began to think, I wonder if Beethovan's deafness was actually a blessing to Beethovan, and of course future piano composers and audiences, as if he had been able to hear the actual notes as opposed to the notes he knew in his head, whether he would have indeed composed these pieces.

I might add; As this puzzle began to take a more technical engineering view, I did have to take an educated guess as to why this was the reason. I supposed that the length and velocity (loudness) of many of beehtovan's pieces would have impacted greatly on the elasticity of the old wooden frames and piano wires, quickly detuning it as the piece was played.

This is the particular extract from H.Goodalls Big Bang on pianos: Beethovan Moonlight Sonata, #14, Op. 27 Number 2 3rd Movement, Presto Agitato.

If you are wondering where the title comes from, Beethovan is not in "...the band on the great bandstand when the saints go marching in." in Danny Kaye and Louis Armstrongs "Saints Go Marching in."
Benjamin Moore (Zenith)
Posted on Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 8:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

thankyou all for playing, especially Lewis, Barbara and Tony for wrapping it up.
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 5:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Aha. So he never heard what his compositions realy sounded like, but on the pianos he composed them on they wouldn't have the same depth and power of sound quality that we're used to hearing; they'd be more tinkly and light, more like a harpsichord?
Mezzoforte (Mezzoforte)
Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 2:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I liked that. Now I want to learn the Moonlight Sonata!!
Larry Troxler (Quackscience)
Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 4:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)


Quote:

By Mezzoforte (Mezzoforte) on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 02:24 pm:

I liked that. Now I want to learn the Moonlight Sonata!!




Just remember, that everyone plays that well known first movement too slow. At leat that's what I heard from every one of my piano or composition teachers.

Great puzzle, even though I was just listening.

It inspires me to practice the piano more.

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