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Einar Berg (Grainbeer)
Posted on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 2:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So they SAID that they wanted exactly what they got, whereas they actually did not want it?

Did they want more of this? Less? Nothing at all of it? Did they want something else? Or preferrably nothing at all?
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 4:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

HotBod (Hotbod) on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 06:05 am

Property relevant? Yes, for one sense of property

Einar Berg (Grainbeer) on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 02:03 pm

So they SAID that they wanted exactly what they got, whereas they actually did not want it? And there's the other FA squashed! YES. What they said they wanted and what they actually wanted were two different things. They got what they said they ewanted; not what they actually wanted.

Did they want more of this? No, quantity doesn't enter into it.
Less? Again, no.
Nothing at all of it? Of what they said they wanted? Yes, they wanted none of it.
Did they want something else? YES. They wanted something else entirely!
Or preferrably nothing at all? No.
Haenlomal (Haenlomal)
Posted on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 4:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Let's see if I can recap this:

1) The criminals say that they wanted something "A".
2) In reality, the criminals wanted something else "B"
3) The organization or person whom they asked for "A" recognized that they probably wanted "B"
4) But deliberately gave them "A" instead.

Is the above correct?

Did the criminals ask for "A", hoping that the other party would be able to read between the lines so that they'd get "B" instead? Or did the other party deliberately "misinterpret" "A" for "B" (i.e. "Gimme the dough!" (meaning money), and then handing them a sack of flour instead?)
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 5:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Haenlomal (Haenlomal) on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 04:59 pm

Let's see if I can recap this:

OK

1) The criminals say that they wanted something "A". YES
2) In reality, the criminals wanted something else "B" YES
3) The organization or person whom they asked for "A" recognized that they probably wanted "B" Yes; but remember, there was no request made.
4) But deliberately gave them "A" instead. YES

Is the above correct?
YES

Did the criminals ask for "A", hoping that the other party would be able to read between the lines so that they'd get "B" instead? No.
Or did the other party deliberately "misinterpret" "A" for "B" Misinterpret? NO. The other party took them exactly at their word, and what they said they wanted was very clear.
(i.e. "Gimme the dough!" (meaning money), and then handing them a sack of flour instead?) So, nothing like this.
Einar Berg (Grainbeer)
Posted on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 5:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So now we need to know what they actually asked for, and what they got. It is something tangible and also discrete. Was it some kind of permission? License? Other kind of document?
Haenlomal (Haenlomal)
Posted on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 5:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I guess I should have clarified what I meant by "misinterpret". If someone said they wanted "A", but I could tell that they actually wanted "B", then of course I would give them "B". In this case, you said that the criminals said that they wanted "A", but in actuality wanted "B". And furthermore, the other party involved knows that they in fact want "B". However, for whatever reason (maybe an attempt to foil their criminal activity) they still gave the criminals "A"? Is this what was happening?
John Morahan (Wunderland)
Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 2:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

When they said they wanted "A", did they expect to be given "A"? by the person to whom they said they wanted it?
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 3:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hum. I thought that I got the first two of these before.. 'Tis passing strange.

Einar Berg (Grainbeer) on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 05:53 pm

So now we need to know what they actually asked for, and what they got. Yes. But you've fallen back into the FA that they asked for anything. They didn't. They didn't anybody for anything.
It is something tangible and also discrete. Yes.
Was it some kind of permission? No.
License? No.
Other kind of document? There were documents involved, but none of the documents were "what they wanted".

Haenlomal (Haenlomal) on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 05:54 pm

I guess I should have clarified what I meant by "misinterpret". OK, shoot.
If someone said they wanted "A", but I could tell that they actually wanted "B", then of course I would give them "B". That's very thoughtful of you...
In this case, you said that the criminals said that they wanted "A", but in actuality wanted "B". Yes.
And furthermore, the other party involved knows that they in fact want "B". Yes.
However, for whatever reason (maybe an attempt to foil their criminal activity) This is exactly the reason! they still gave the criminals "A"? Yes. Is this what was happening? Yes, all the way through. This is why I kept saying that there was no misinterpretation. The other party did no interpreting at all, mis- or otherwise.

John Morahan (Wunderland) on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 02:17 am

When they said they wanted "A", did they expect to be given "A"? by the person to whom they said they wanted it? Yes, with a large -ish and an FA attached .

Shall I recap/refocus?
John Morahan (Wunderland)
Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 3:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sorry for that dreadfully careless question. :(

When they said they wanted "A", did they say it to a person? to a group of persons? to themselves? to one another? did they say it aloud at all?
When they said they wanted "A", did they mean to say that they wanted "B"?
When they said they wanted "A", did they expect that someone would hear them say this, and then give them "A"? or "B"?
Did they just say it as a passing remark?

"B" is not a document, correct? Is "A" a document?
Do "A" and "B" have the same name?
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 4:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

John Morahan (Wunderland) on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 03:37 am

Sorry for that dreadfully careless question. I'm sorry I had to give such an unhelpful answer

When they said they wanted "A", did they say it to a person? to a group of persons? to themselves? to one another? did they say it aloud at all? No. They didn't say it aloud.
When they said they wanted "A", did they mean to say that they wanted "B"? This one's complicated -- I could 'yope' you. But I won't. If the two criminals, talking to each other, had talked about "A", both would have understood that they were actually talking about "B". Anyone else hearing them would assume that they were in fact talking about "A", and wouldn't even know that "B" existed.
When they said they wanted "A", did they expect that someone would hear them say this, not hear them, and then give them "A"? No. or "B"? Yes.

Did they just say it as a passing remark? as above, they probably didn't talk about it much at all, once the crime was set up.

"B" is not a document, correct? Is "A" a document? Neither "A" nor "B" is a document itself. There are documents attached to "B".

Do "A" and "B" have the same name? No.

Figuring out what the crime these two were engaged in will go a very long way toward untangling this snarl.
John Morahan (Wunderland)
Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 4:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

They didn't say it aloud - did they write it somewhere? type it? otherwise communicate it? if so, to a person? or group of people? other than themselves? if so, did they expect that that person / group of people would give them "B"?
There are documents attached to "B" - physically attached to it? or associated with it?
It is considered a "victimless crime", but if they succeed they will make money. Where will this money come from - their employer? the target government? someone else?
Espionage?
Are they using "A" as a code name for "B"?
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 5:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

John Morahan (Wunderland) on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 04:34 am

They didn't say it aloud - did they write it somewhere? Yes.
type it? most likely
otherwise communicate it?
if so, to a person? or group of people? Yes. To a government agency.
other than themselves? if so, did they expect that that person / group of people would give them "B"? They hoped to get "B", yes.

There are documents attached to "B" - physically attached to it? Not likely or associated with it? This is more accurate.

It is considered a "victimless crime", but if they succeed they will make money. Yes.
Where will this money come from - their employer? No. the target government? Indirectly from here. someone else? and directly from here.

Espionage? No.
Are they using "A" as a code name for "B"? Yes, in one sense, but not in the usual sense.
John Morahan (Wunderland)
Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 2:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So they wrote something to a government agency, which included a statement that they wanted "A" (but not a request of any kind), and they hoped that this would result in them getting "B". If it worked they would have gotten money from someone which would have indirectly come from the government agency.
Correct?
Did what they wrote include anything relevant other than the statement that they wanted "A"?
Did they hope to get "B" from someone? if so: an individual? a group of people? the government agency? one or more of its employees? would it be given to them? or taken by them?
Is the someone from whom the money would have directly come: an individual? a group of people? the government agency? one or more of its employees? whoever they got "B" from? is "B" the money? would the money have been given to them? or taken by them?
Is "A" something that is undesirable generally? only to criminals? only to these particular criminals?
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 4:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

John Morahan (Wunderland) on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 02:24 pm

So they wrote something to a government agency, Basically, Yes. They wrote something and sent it to a government agency...
which included a statement that they wanted "A" Yes. In fact, it said that they expected to recieve "A"
(but not a request of any kind), Yes.
and they hoped that this would result in them getting "B". Yes.

If it worked they would have gotten money from someone which would have indirectly come from the government agency. Not quite. They would have directly received money from someone and they would have indirectly gained money from the goverment. But the money that they gained from the government is not the same money that they would have received from the someone else. Clear as mud, isn't it?

Correct? Except as noted, correct.

Did what they wrote include anything relevant other than the statement that they wanted "A"?
It included lots of other information, but none of it relevant.
Did they hope to get "B" from someone? if so: an individual? a group of people? the government agency? one or more of its employees? would it be given to them? or taken by them? None of these. They already had "B".

Is the someone from whom the money would have directly come: an individual? More than one individual
a group of people? Possibly this, too, but it's much less likely.
the government agency? No.
one or more of its employees? Good question. Yes, an employee of the government agency could be one of the individuals.
whoever they got "B" from? No.
is "B" the money? No.
would the money have been given to them? Yes.
or taken by them? Taken as in stolen? No.

Is "A" something that is undesirable generally? A few people want it. Most people would get rid of it. Some people will pay to get rid of it.
only to criminals? No.
only to these particular criminals? No.
John Morahan (Wunderland)
Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 6:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

AAAAAARGH!!!!!!! :( :( :(

Was what they wrote addressed to the government agency? or was it addressed to someone else but sent to the government agency? did they intend the government agency to think that they had not sent it intentionally? is the government agency involved in law enforcement?
Did they expect someone to pay them to take "A" off their hands? the above mentioned money-giving individuals? had the criminals previously given "A" to someone? the government agency?
They hoped to get "B", correct? but they already had "B"? did they want more "B"? or a different "B" to replace their existing "B"? were they going to make their own "B"? did they hope to be given "B"? were they hoping to find "B" lying around somewhere? were they going to exchange "B"'s with one another?
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 6:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

John Morahan (Wunderland) on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 06:31 pm:

AAAAAARGH!!!!!!! Believe me, I know the feeling!


Was what they wrote addressed to the government agency? Yes. HINT: It was a goverment form that they filled out.
or was it addressed to someone else but sent to the government agency? No.
did they intend the government agency to think that they had not sent it intentionally? No. They sent it intentionally, and the government agency knew that they'd sent it intentionally.
is the government agency involved in law enforcement? YES!!! and virtually every country has one. Finding out which one will be a big help.

Did they expect someone to pay them to take "A" off their hands? No. They didn't actually have any "A". They had "B".
the above mentioned money-giving individuals? No. those individuals would be paying for "B".

had the criminals previously given "A" to someone? No. the government agency? So, no.

They hoped to get "B", correct? Yes, they hoped to receive "B".
but they already had "B"? Yes. They already owned "B".
did they want more "B"? No. They wanted to sell the "B" they had.
or a different "B" to replace their existing "B"? No.
were they going to make their own "B"? No.
did they hope to be given "B"? For one sense of "given", Yes.
were they hoping to find "B" lying around somewhere? No. They knew exactly where "B" was.
were they going to exchange "B"'s with one another? No. There's only one set of "B" involved, and they own it jointly.
John Morahan (Wunderland)
Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 7:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

They owned "B" - did they have it in their possession to begin with?
Did they plan to sell the "B" they had, then somehow get it back?

Is the government agency a police force? intelligence agency?

Did they tell the agency that they were providing the service of getting rid of people's "A", hoping that this would entitle them to something that "A"-get-rid-of-ers are normally entitled to?
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 7:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

John Morahan (Wunderland) on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 07:18 pm

They owned "B" - did they have it in their possession to begin with? Yes.
Did they plan to sell the "B" they had, then somehow get it back? No.

Is the government agency a police force? Yes-ish, They have a specific area of law enforcement in which they operate. intelligence agency? No.

Did they tell the agency that they were providing the service of getting rid of people's "A", Yes.
hoping that this would entitle them to something that "A"-get-rid-of-ers are normally entitled to? This answer could going to be very misleading -- Yes.
Haenlomal (Haenlomal)
Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 4:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the criminals try to apply for a witness protection program of some sort?

Is what the criminals say they wanted something that the police force can actually provide? If yes, is it something that a police force would routinely provide to people who say they want them?

When the criminals say that they wanted "A", did the police force already know that they were criminals? Were they in some sort of negotiations with the police?

Was one of "A" or "B" food?
John Morahan (Wunderland)
Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 5:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is "B" contraband?
Are the criminals in the business of selling "B"? is this their crime?
Is "A" waste?
Are the two criminals located in the same country?
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 5:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Haenlomal (Haenlomal) on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 04:30 pm

Did the criminals try to apply for a witness protection program of some sort? No, nothing like this.

Is what the criminals say they wanted something that the police force can actually provide? No, not usually. In this case, however, it happened that they could. So they did. If yes, is it something that a police force would routinely provide to people who say they want them? No.

When the criminals say that they wanted "A", did the police force already know that they were criminals? No. Were they in some sort of negotiations with the police? No.

Was one of "A" or "B" food? Neither.

John Morahan (Wunderland) on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 05:26 pm

Is "B" contraband? Yes, under the circumstances. It wouldn't always be, though.

Are the criminals in the business of selling "B"? Pretty much. is this their crime? Not exactly, but you're very much on the right track.

Is "A" waste? YES! Scrap metal, to be exact.

Are the two criminals located in the same country? Why, no. No, they aren't. GOOD question!

Wunderland, you're well on the way to the solution.
John Morahan (Wunderland)
Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 6:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were they trying to import something illegally? and described it as scrap metal? to avoid paying some tax or duty? was it made of metal? did the law enforcement agency destroy it? so that it actually was scrap metal when it arrived?
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 6:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

John Morahan (Wunderland) on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 06:00 pm

Were they trying to import something illegally? Yes.
and described it as scrap metal? Yes.
to avoid paying some tax or duty? Yes.
was it made of metal? Large parts of it were. yes.
did the law enforcement agency destroy it? They did indeed.
so that it actually was scrap metal when it arrived? Precisely so!

Very nicely done, Wunderland. And thank you to Haenlomal, Grainbeer and HotBod for keeping it lively!

$poiler to follow...
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 6:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

************SPOILER**************

A smuggling ring attempted to bring a cargo contaier full of Mercedes Benzes, big-screen TVs and other luxury goods into Bangladesh without paying duty by identifying it as "Scrap Metal" on the import papers. Customs agents who opened the container and found the goods then used a bulldozer to reduce the contents to shreds -- and shipped it on.
The smugglers got exactly what they said they wanted--a cargo container full of scrap metal.
Einar Berg (Grainbeer)
Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 6:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Very well...! Sorry, I felt a bit braindrained here, so I gave up finding the right questions. But Wunderland did it wunderfully....
Haenlomal (Haenlomal)
Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 6:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Good puzzle, Barbara...and a hand to John for cracking this puzzle. I think I was pursuing wrong paths here too.

Care to try for some of mine? I know that the one with the Latin title is just up your alley interest wise, even though it may not be that obvious right now....
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 6:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'll admit, I suspected that this one was going to be twisty, simply because at least one of the false assumptions was going to be so hard to avoid, even once you knew it was there; namely, why would they say they wanted something that they didn't want at all?

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