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Lateral Puzzles » Solved Lateral Thinking Puzzles » Solved Puzzles - June 2005 » [Grainbeer] Destiny´s children » Archive through May 31, 2005 « Previous Next »

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Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 10:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

And thus I have gone whanging into another brick wall at full speed. <Sigh>

So the helpful turkeys somehow got through the siege, right? And they must have walked or been carted, because they couldn't fly?

Oh, fooey. Wild guess time...
Did the besiegers hear the noise of the helpful turkeys inside the besieged castle? town? and give up, thinking that the people inside had more food than they actually did?
Einar Berg (Grainbeer)
Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 11:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

And thus I have gone whanging into another brick wall at full speed. <Sigh>

Well, many of the besiegers probably fared worse than banging their heads...

So the helpful turkeys somehow got through the siege, right? Right... and again some small FA And they must have walked or been carted, because they couldn't fly? No - NOT right....why?

Oh, fooey. Wild guess time... go ahead :)

Did the besiegers hear the noise of the helpful turkeys inside the besieged castle? town? It was actually not a beleaguered town. It was a fortified monastery. There was definitely a lot of noise involved in this incident, but not necessarily from the turkeys only and give up, thinking that the people inside had more food than they actually did? No. They were not THAT easily disheartened. Actually, the siege continued also after the arrival of the turkeys. But...
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 11:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Well, many of the besiegers probably fared worse than banging their heads..."

Oh, like that's supposed to be a comfort?

Pesky FA's. The turkeys didn't get through the besiegers? or they weren't brought through?

Well, if they didn't walk, and they weren't carted, and they couldn't fly, but they weren't always there...the besiegers flung them over the walls with catapults? They were rare Peruvian Burrowing Turkeys and they dug tunnels? They stole the skateboards from the chickens and rolled in? Oh, all right -- they hatched inside the monastery after the siege had already begun?
Einar Berg (Grainbeer)
Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 7:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Pesky FA's. The turkeys didn't get through the besiegers? or they weren't brought through? I think I will resolve this one so you don´t spend all your energy on it. I aimed at the little word 'helpful'. It seemed to me a bit misleading, because it could imply that the turkeys aided the besiged by their own free will. This was not so.

Well, if they didn't walk, and they weren't carted, and they couldn't fly, but they weren't always there...the besiegers flung them over the walls with catapults? No. But a funny suggestion - lol. And again(very, very sorry...): a slight FA... and an important one..

They were rare Peruvian Burrowing Turkeys and they dug tunnels? Nothing of the kind They stole the skateboards from the chickens and rolled in? No Oh, all right -- they hatched inside the monastery after the siege had already begun? No
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 5:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thank you for straightening out what that first FA was--I had just gotten tired of typing out "the first group of turkeys" and "the turkeys that aided the people", and started thinking of the two different flocks as "the helpful turkeys" and "the non-helpful turkeys." Shorthand, if you will, but sloppy nonetheless.

On to the second FA: is it that
They didn't walk?
They weren't carted?
They couldn't fly?

or is it regarding: "they weren't always there"?
They weren't there at the start of the siege?
They weren't there when they aided the people?

Clearly, they weren't there anymore after they were eaten, but did they somehow aid the people after they were eaten?
Einar Berg (Grainbeer)
Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 5:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

On to the second FA: is it that
They didn't walk?
They weren't carted?
They couldn't fly? This one. Turkeys aren´t GOOD flyers, but...

or is it regarding: "they weren't always there"?
They weren't there at the start of the siege?
They weren't there when they aided the people?

Clearly, they weren't there anymore after they were eaten, but did they somehow aid the people after they were eaten? No, they had served their mission then
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 6:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So they flew over the walls of the monastery? Did the turkeyherders deliberately scare them into flying?
Einar Berg (Grainbeer)
Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 7:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So they flew over the walls of the monastery? No
Did the turkeyherders deliberately scare them into flying? yope - and did I mention any turkeyherders?
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 8:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am sooo lost... I believe that I've got at least one FA buried so far down in the foundations of my reasoning that I'm not even aware that it's an assumption, let alone that it's false.

OK. Take it one step at a time. From the beginning. Check everything.


This puzzle is based on a true story.
Is it necessary to find out when this occurred?
Would it be helpful?

There's a fortified monastery in Spain.
There are people inside of it.
Are they monks only? monks and laypeople? only laypeople?
Is it relevant who they are?

The monastery and the people in it are under siege.
Is finding out why they're under siege necessary?
Would it be helpful?
Is finding out who the besiegers are necessary?
Would it be helpful?

The people in the monastery are the endangered "them" of the puzzle statement? They number roughly 1500. (I shall call these folks "the endangered people")

There are two different flocks of turkeys mentioned in the puzzle statement.
A vital point is that domestic turkeys aren't very good at flying.

One flock (numbering between 100 and 200 birds) aided the endangered people by their very presence, but the aid was unintentional on the part of the turkeys.

The endangered people did something because of the turkey's presence?

This flock of turkeys were all eaten, after they had aided the endangered people?
But the aid this flock of turkeys gave was not that they provided food. (Henceforth, this flock shall be called "the helpful turkeys")

The helpful turkeys belonged to a person or persons connected with, but not among the endangered people? See? That's where the turkeyherders came from...

The helpful turkeys were not always at the monastery.

If you'd be so good as to verify/answer these, I'm going to go take a couple of aspirin, and maybe a nap, and come back a bit later to keep going. Thanks.
Einar Berg (Grainbeer)
Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 10:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I´m sorry if I am the cause of your headache... and will try to answer your questions as best I can:

This puzzle is based on a true story. Yes
Is it necessary to find out when this occurred? Not, necessary, but..
Would it be helpful? ..it might be helpful

There's a fortified monastery in Spain.
There are people inside of it.
Are they monks only? No monks and laypeople? {No} only laypeople? No... not in a strict sense}
Is it relevant who they are? Yes

The monastery and the people in it are under siege.
Is finding out why they're under siege necessary? No
Would it be helpful? No, not really
Is finding out who the besiegers are necessary? No
Would it be helpful? No

The people in the monastery are the endangered "them" of the puzzle statement? Yes They number roughly 1500. (I shall call these folks "the endangered people") I suggest you simply call them "the besieged people".

There are two different flocks of turkeys mentioned in the puzzle statement. Yope.. not necessarily two different "flocks". But they ended up as different "groups".
A vital point is that domestic turkeys aren't very good at flying. Yes

One flock (numbering between 100 and 200 birds) aided the endangered people by their very presence, but the aid was unintentional on the part of the turkeys. Yes... though I would have phrased it a bit differently

The endangered people did something because of the turkey's presence? Please rephrase this one

This flock of turkeys were all eaten, after they had aided the endangered people? Yes
But the aid this flock of turkeys gave was not that they provided food. (Henceforth, this flock shall be called "the helpful turkeys") Yes

The helpful turkeys belonged to a person or persons connected with, but not among the endangered people? To some persons connected with the endangered persons, yes. But I would hardly call them turkeyherders. But you could say that some turkeyherders provided them initially, of course. See? That's where the turkeyherders came from...

The helpful turkeys were not always at the monastery. Right you are

Maybe I should try to comprise this into a recap...
Einar Berg (Grainbeer)
Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 10:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

******************* RECAP *********************

This is a true story, which happened some time in the last century:

About 1500 people were besieged in a Spanish monastery. They were somehow aided by a group of turkeys. In the end, after the turkeys had provided that help, they were all butchered and eaten. But the primary aid was not that the turkeys provided an extra food supply, though this was considered as a bonus by the besieged people.

This aid could not be provided by bird species that are good flyers, like pigeons or eagles. Turkeys were probably ideal for the task, though possibly for instance domestic geese might have done as well.

Another group of turkeys did not provide any help to the besieged. At least initially, their lives were spared.

The helpful turkeys were not in the monastery all the time. But they did not arrive on foot, nor were they cartered into the monastery. Nor were they catapulted into the monastery by the besiegers, or arrive through a tunnel.

What was that help that the turkeys provided, how did they do it, and why were the turkeys chosen for this task?
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 12:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were the turkeys butchered and eaten by the besieged? By the besiegers?
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 5:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No worries: you weren't the cause of the headache. Combination of not enough sleep, having to deal with some nasty morning rush-hour traffic, and glare from the sun. And thank you for the recap. That helps a great deal.

Do the besieged people include:
members of a? several? religious order(s)? Priests?
nuns?
people in Minor Orders?
seminarians?
students?
civilians?
members of the military?

The thing that the besieged people did:
something that they wouldn't have been able to do at all without the turkeys?
Or something that they might have done, but probably wouldn't have thought of doing, without the turkeys?
something that they probably could have done anyway but the turkeys made it easier?

Is it necessary to discover how the turkeys got into the maonastery? Helpful?

Did the turkeys fly for a short distance?
Over the walls outward?
Over the walls inward?
From the ground to the top of the walls?
From the buildings within the walls to the top of the walls?
from the ground to the roofs of the interior buildings?

Could the besieged people have done the same thing if they had been in a fort? a castle? a walled town? rather than a monastery?
Einar Berg (Grainbeer)
Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 9:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do the besieged people include:
members of a? several? religious order(s)? Priests? There might have been some of those, but..
nuns?
people in Minor Orders?
seminarians?
students?
civilians?
members of the military? ...mostly these. Soldiers.

The thing that the besieged people did:
something that they wouldn't have been able to do at all without the turkeys? A little of this, and..
Or something that they might have done, but probably wouldn't have thought of doing, without the turkeys?
something that they probably could have done anyway but the turkeys made it easier? ... a little of this

Is it necessary to discover how the turkeys got into the monastery? Yes Helpful?

Did the turkeys fly for a short distance? Yes
Over the walls outward? No
Over the walls inward? Yes
From the ground to the top of the walls? No
From the buildings within the walls to the top of the walls? No
from the ground to the roofs of the interior buildings? No

Could the besieged people have done the same thing if they had been in a fort? a castle? a walled town? rather than a monastery? Yes. It would not have made any difference. It´s just the fact that this historical incident happened in that monastery
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 5:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The people who the turkeys belonged to originally: was it the besieging army?
Einar Berg (Grainbeer)
Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 6:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The people who the turkeys belonged to originally: was it the besieging army? No
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 8:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hum. And hum again.

The thing that the besieged people did that the turkeys made both possible and easier: were the turkeys, or some parts of them, used as material for the doing?

Did the thing have anything to do with the fact that the turkeys flew over the wall from outside? if yes, did that make the besieged people aware of a weakness in the wall? its height? its distance from some other object (a building? tree(s)? something like that?)

Did it make the besieged people aware that they could do the same thing the turkeys did? Did it make them aware that the besiegers could do the same thing the turkeys did?
Einar Berg (Grainbeer)
Posted on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 8:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The thing that the besieged people did that the turkeys made both possible and easier: were the turkeys, or some parts of them, used as material for the doing? I am not quite sure what you mean. If you mean that they utilised the feathers, the bones or such, the answer is no.

Did the thing have anything to do with the fact that the turkeys flew over the wall from outside? This is a vital part of it, yes. But beware of another (sorry, sorry, sorry....) POSSIBLE FA here... if yes, did that make the besieged people aware of a weakness in the wall? No its height? No its distance from some other object (a building? tree(s)? something like that?) No

Did it make the besieged people aware that they could do the same thing the turkeys did? No Did it make them aware that the besiegers could do the same thing the turkeys did? No
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 8:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

OK, I'm just going to fling some random questions out here. I feel like I've got pieces of the solution, but don't recognize them...

Is it the turkeys' flying that inspired the besieged people?
Is it that the besieged people's attention was called to the wall?
Was what the besieged people did an engineering thing? did they build something? a social thing?
a psychological thing? a weapon thing?

Did what they did save their lives by allowing them to escape from the monastery? by negating something that the besiegers were doing? (besides sitting out side the walls?)
Einar Berg (Grainbeer)
Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 8:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it the turkeys' flying that inspired the besieged people? Noish... I´d better say 'no' to get you off a wrong track.
Is it that the besieged people's attention was called to the wall? No
Was what the besieged people did an engineering thing? Yes - sort of... did they build something? Not really, but elements of building may have occurred a social thing? No - not at all
a psychological thing? No a weapon thing? Yes. Definitely.

Did what they did save their lives by allowing them to escape from the monastery? No... or maybe rather noish... by negating something that the besiegers were doing? (besides sitting out side the walls?) Please rephrase... I didn´t understand the word 'negating'. Or, let us simply say that the turkeys´ aid enabled the besieged people to resist the besiegers better.
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 9:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Rephrasing: Did -what the besieged people did- make something that the besiegers were doing less effective? ineffective?
Einar Berg (Grainbeer)
Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 9:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Rephrasing: Did -what the besieged people did- make something that the besiegers were doing less effective? ineffective? I´d say no