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dryman (Dryman)
Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 1:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"It's clearly a forgery," said the expert, "I can say with certainty that no one of that name existed." The second part of his statement was correct, but the first part wasn't. Why?
Ian (Image)
Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 2:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Because it was a typo? A "John Dough" example?

The thing that the expert is talking about... Is it a cheque? A birth certificate? A death certificate? A diploma? A credit card? Other?
dryman (Dryman)
Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 3:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Because it was a typo? no A "John Dough" example? no

The thing that the expert is talking about... Is it a cheque? no
A birth certificate? no
A death certificate? no
A diploma? no
A credit card? no
Other? yes
Torgeir Apeland (Abc)
Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 10:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A coin?
An object of particular interest to a historian?
dryman (Dryman)
Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 2:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A coin? no
An object of particular interest to a historian? noish
Lisa (Dlcygnet)
Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 2:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A piece of art?
A painting?
An instrument?
A document?
A signature?
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 5:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The reason it isn't a forgery: Anything to do with the legal definition of forgery?

If so, def #1
"1) the crime of creating a false document, altering a document, or writing a false signature for the illegal benefit of the person making the forgery. This includes improperly filling in a blank document, like a automobile purchase contract, over a buyer's signature, with the terms different from those agreed. It does not include such innocent representation as a staff member autographing photos of politicians or movie stars. While similar to forgery, counterfeiting refers to the creation of phoney money, stock certificates, or bonds which are negotiable for cash."

or def #2:
"2) a document or signature falsely created or altered."

Is it a demonstration piece?
a display piece?
a practice piece?

Is it made of paper? metal? glass? stone? plastic? fabric? something else?
dryman (Dryman)
Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 8:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A piece of art? no
A painting? no
An instrument? no
A document? no
A signature? no

The reason it isn't a forgery: Anything to do with the legal definition of forgery? no - I guess what he meant was more along the lines of "not genuine"

Is it a demonstration piece?
a display piece?
a practice piece? hm, I'm not completely familiar with those terms but I'd say it's probably closest to a display piece

Is it made of paper? yes metal? glass? stone? plastic? fabric? something else? not these
Jennifer (Tigger32382)
Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 9:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

was the name written on the paper? is it one sheet of paper? just to be clear... it was not a forgery? but no one of the name existed? was there a pseudonym being used?
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 10:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, a demonstration piece would be something that someone made to show how the process is done, something like a calligraphed page that still showed the guide lines in some places, or had certain letters unfinished, so that anyone looking at it could see what went into making such an article.

A display piece would be one made to show the level of skill of the maker, or to exhibit style, design elements, or similar things, but not intended to be "real".

A practice piece is one made as practice, and quite possibly never intended to be seen at all by anyone other than the maker.

Do those definitions change the answer at all?

Is the name that of an imaginary character?
is it a misspelling of a real name?
Is the name attached to a position, and no-one of that name ever held that position?
Is it a name that could never have existed because it's a mixture of languages? time periods? that would never have overlapped?
dryman (Dryman)
Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 10:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Jennifer (Tigger32382) on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 09:27 pm:
was the name written on the paper? printed is it one sheet of paper? yes just to be clear... it was not a forgery? correct but no one of the name existed? yesish was there a pseudonym being used? no

By Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab) on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 10:18 pm:
Do those definitions change the answer at all? yes - I guess it wouldn't really be any of these

Is the name that of an imaginary character? no
is it a misspelling of a real name? no
Is the name attached to a position, and no-one of that name ever held that position? YESish - this question was very much on the right track
Is it a name that could never have existed because it's a mixture of languages? no time periods? no that would never have overlapped? no
Ian (Image)
Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 10:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Attached to a position....
Pope?
King?
Queen?
Prime Minister?
Governor General?
President?
Vice-President?
Senator?
CEO?
Other?
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 11:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the paper a
certificate of award?
certificate of membership?
a letter?
a form?

Was the false name that of the signer?
of the person it was addressed to?
of someone else?

Yes-ish to position: is it a title, rather than a position? (Duke? Count? Earl? Lord? Sir?)
dryman (Dryman)
Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 11:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Attached to a position....
Pope?
King?
Queen?
Prime Minister?
Governor General?
President?
Vice-President?
Senator?
CEO? none of these
Other? yes
Is the paper a
certificate of award? no
certificate of membership? no
a letter? no
a form? no

Was the false name that of the signer? FA
of the person it was addressed to? FA

Yes-ish to position: is it a title, rather than a position? no, it's a position (Duke? Count? Earl? Lord? Sir?) none of these
John Morahan (Wunderland)
Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 11:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the name that was written the name of a position, rather than the name of a person? and it was a position that had never been filled?
dryman (Dryman)
Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 11:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the name that was written the name of a position, rather than the name of a person? YESish and it was a position that had never been filled? not exactly
John Morahan (Wunderland)
Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 11:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he simply mistake it for the name of a person?
dryman (Dryman)
Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 11:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he simply mistake it for the name of a person? yope
Lewis Zeiters (Lzeiters)
Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 12:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

were the words in the incorrect order, so that he said that it couldn't be correct, like:

"King, Martin Luther", which he read as "King Martin Luther", which is incorrect, as Martin Luther was never a king?

If not, similar wordplay relevant?
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 1:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was it the name of a postion that is often? sometimes? occasionally? ever? used as a given name? (Dean, Judge, Deacon, Abbot(t), Ranger?)

How about as a last name (Chancellor, Bishop, Butler)?

And back to the paper:
Was it
an identity card (like a social security card? or a driver's license?)
a membership card?
a library card?
a ticket?
a reciept?

Was the piece of paper smaller than a business card? (about 1 1/2" x 2 1/2")
smaller than a driver's license (about 2" x 3")?
smaller than 3" x 5"?
smaller than 5" x 8"?
smaller than 8 1/2"x 11"? (A4?)
smaller than 11" x 14" (legal size)?
larger than 11" x 14"
dryman (Dryman)
Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 2:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Lewis Zeiters (Lzeiters) on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 12:54 am:

were the words in the incorrect order no
so that he said that it couldn't be correct, like:

"King, Martin Luther", which he read as "King Martin Luther", which is incorrect, as Martin Luther was never a king? no but good guess!

If not, similar wordplay relevant? some wordplay/confusion is definitely involved


By Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab) on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 01:24 am:

Was it the name of a postion that is often? sometimes? occasionally? ever? used as a given name? (Dean, Judge, Deacon, Abbot(t), Ranger?) no

How about as a last name (Chancellor, Bishop, Butler)? yes (with a small ish)

And back to the paper:
Was it
an identity card (like a social security card? or a driver's license?)
a membership card?
a library card?
a ticket?
a reciept? none of these. but you are closest with the first three

Was the piece of paper smaller than a business card? (about 1 1/2" x 2 1/2")
smaller than a driver's license (about 2" x 3")?
smaller than 3" x 5"?
smaller than 5" x 8"?
smaller than 8 1/2"x 11"? (A4?)
smaller than 11" x 14" (legal size)?
larger than 11" x 14" I'm not sure of the exact size, but it was probably somewhat larger than a driver's license
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 3:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

OK, I'll back off a little bit on the specifics :)

Is the paper a card that someone would generally carry in their wallet/purse/billfold/pocket?

Is it issued by some official? semi-official? unofficial body or organization? by the local government? regional government? national government? by a branch of the military? by a social group?

Is it signed by anyone? since "the signer" was an FA

Is the wrong name that of the person who owned the paper? the person who gave them the paper? the person who authorised the giving of the paper?