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Archive through October 25, 2005Ixoye72422 10-25-05  3:58 pm
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Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 4:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

did Bert and Eddie never actually meet? They met actually many times.
were they both members of the same crime ring/organization/something else that comitted this crime, and maybe knew of each other, but didn't meet? No.
did Bert know Eddie was Simon and Jane's son? Yes (taking into account the still prevalent FA).
Jennifer (Tigger32382)
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 4:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

was bert also related to the family?
Ixoye724 (Ixoye724)
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 4:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Bert and Eddie meet each other when they were children? Teenagers?
Did Simon and Jane adopt Eddie? If so, as a baby? as a young child? as a teenager?
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 4:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jennifer
was bert also related to the family? You mean, related by blood? No.

Ixoye724
Did Bert and Eddie meet each other when they were children? Teenagers? I suppose so, because both lived in the same small town. Pretty much irrelevant, though.
Did Simon and Jane adopt Eddie? No.
If so, as a baby? as a young child? as a teenager?
Jennifer (Tigger32382)
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 4:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

was bert related by marriage? by adoption? related in any sense of the term?
Haenlomal (Haenlomal)
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 7:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Bert Eddie's step-brother? If yes, was he adopted into Simon's family?
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 10:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jennifer
was bert related by marriage? Yope. by adoption? No. related in any sense of the term?

Haenlomal
Was Bert Eddie's step-brother? No. If yes, was he adopted into Simon's family? Neither Bert nor Eddie were at any time adopted as a child.
Ixoye724 (Ixoye724)
Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 3:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Bert commit only one crime? Several? Repeat offenses?
Did Simon ever witness Bert commit a crime?
Did Simon have to be told by Bert that Eddie had also comitted? Did someone else tell Simon this? Did Simon witness this?
Haenlomal (Haenlomal)
Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 3:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

When Bert and Eddie met, did Eddie know that he was in fact meeting up with Bert? (i.e. did Bert somehow disguise himself?) Vice versa?

was bert related by marriage? Yope

Does the above mean that someone is Bert's extended family was married to someone that had blood relation to Jane? Blood relation to Simon? If yes to either one of the two: Did they divorce?

Wild thought: Was Simon and Jane related to each other prior to their marriage?
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 5:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ixoye724
Did Bert commit only one crime? Several? Repeat offenses? The list of Bert's crimes is long: Numerous cases of smuggling, poaching, several instances of robbery and theft, plus desertion from three different armies. And the "crime" that involves Eddie.
Did Simon ever witness Bert commit a crime? Probably not.
Did Simon have to be told by Bert that Eddie had also committed? No. Did someone else tell Simon this? No. Did Simon witness this? Not directly. He witnessed something and drew his conclusions.

Haenlomal
When Bert and Eddie met, did Eddie know that he was in fact meeting up with Bert? Yes.
(i.e. did Bert somehow disguise himself? No.)
Vice versa? Neither

was bert related by marriage? Yope

Does the above mean that someone is Bert's extended family was married to someone that had blood relation to Jane? No.
Blood relation to Simon? No. The yope above was for some ambiguity in the question with respect to time.
If yes to either one of the two: Did they divorce?

Wild thought: Were Simon and Jane related to each other prior to their marriage? No.
Jennifer (Tigger32382)
Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 7:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

was bert related by marriage at the time the crimes were committed? was he related when simon and jane committed suicide? is there another relevant family member?
Jennifer (Tigger32382)
Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 7:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is Eddie actually a girl? We never asked, just gave "him" a boys name... Are "Eddie" and Bert married? Lovers?
Haenlomal (Haenlomal)
Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 9:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Also, if Bert had died after Simon let him go, would Jane still have committed suicide?
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 8:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jennifer
was bert related by marriage at the time the crimes were committed? No.
was he related when simon and jane committed suicide? Yes.
is there another relevant family member? No.

Is Eddie actually a girl? Yes. (that was a long way, wasn't it?)
We never asked, just gave "him" a boys name... Are "Eddie" and Bert married? Yes, at the beginning of Scene 3 they marry.
Lovers? And this as well.

Haenlomal
Also, if Bert had died after Simon let him go, would Jane still have committed suicide? Possibly, perhaps even more likely.
Jennifer (Tigger32382)
Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 1:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So does Jane commit suicide because she is unhappy that Bert is her son-in-law? And if Bert had been convicted earlier, he never would have married "Eddie"? Was Bert and Eddie's crime related to their love? Eddie was very young at that time, is this some sort of pedophilia case?
Ixoye724 (Ixoye724)
Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 2:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Bert and Eddie elope? Did they ever have any children together? Are any of their children alive when Jane commits suicide?
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 9:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jennifer
So does Jane commit suicide because she is unhappy that Bert is her son-in-law? Yes, but there is more to it. Her suicide is to some extent planfil as well, to achieve some goal.
And if Bert had been convicted earlier, he never would have married "Eddie"? We can assume this for sure. He would have spend many years, if not the rest of his life, in prison.
Was Bert and Eddie's crime related to their love? Yes.
Eddie was very young at that time, is this some sort of pedophilia case? Under today's law it could be regarded as such, as she was 17. However, back then something else was more relevant than her age.

Ixoye724
Did Bert and Eddie elope? Eddie yes. As for Bert, it is not reported that his mother was against the marriage (his father was long dead already).
Did they ever have any children together? Yes.
Are any of their children alive when Jane commits suicide? Yes.
Jennifer (Tigger32382)
Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 12:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was one of them of a different nationality? was one of them of a different religion? was it eddie? bert?
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 12:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was one of them of a different nationality? No.
was one of them of a different religion? Neither.
was it eddie? bert?
Jennifer (Tigger32382)
Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 2:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

social class relevant? occupations of simon and jane relevant?
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 2:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

social class relevant? Remotely.
occupations of simon and jane relevant? Basically, yes.
Jennifer (Tigger32382)
Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 2:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is this where that special situation of Jane comes in to play?
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 3:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is this where that special situation of Jane comes in to play? Y-Yes..ish. Simon & Jane were to many respects a quite ordinary couple. He the government worker, poorly paid, though, but with a respectful position and title, and she the housewife. But there is something special. If there was not this special thing, the planful part of her suicide would not have made sense.
Ixoye724 (Ixoye724)
Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 4:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

She's an heir/heiress to a large fortune?
And her suicide cancels that fortune?
Is Eddie in her will? NOT in her will? Does this matter?
Does she think Eddie and/or Bert will benefit from her death? Will suffer because of it? Will be glad because of it? Sad because of it?
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 4:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

She's an heir/heiress to a large fortune? She inherited quite a lot, yes.
And her suicide cancels that fortune? No.
Is Eddie in her will? Yope. NOT in her will? Yope. Does this matter? Yes.
Does she think Eddie and/or Bert will benefit from her death? On the contrary. Will suffer because of it? No. Will be glad because of it? No. Sad because of it? Yes.
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 9:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

THE THIEF OF SCHARFENSTEIN (Update)

List of Characters:
Simon, local judge
Jane, Simon's wife
Eddie, Simon's and Jane's daughter
Bert, a criminal

Local people, peasants, woodcutters, cattle traders, grocers, fishwives.
The High Court of Saxony, soldiers.

Scene 1: A small town in Saxony, 1795.
The High Court sends out soldiers to arrest Bert and to end his long lasting criminal career. Simon, the local judge, instead of assisting the soldiers, goes to Bert's cabin and warns him. He isn't doing this to help Bert in the first place, but to avoid unpleasant consequences for himself and his daughter, Eddie, which is in a romantic relationship with Bert. The unpleasant consequences are related to a crime in which both, Bert and Eddie, were involved.

A trial before the High Court would very likely bring this crime to the knowledge of the honorable members of high judicative and Simon would not have another chance but to jail in his own daughter.

Thanks to Simon's warning, Bert escapes prosecution and flees over the border to Bohemia. Eddie stays with her parents but does not give up her love to Bert.

Scene 2: Many places, 1795-1807.
Many things happen during these years of turmoil in Europe. Including the Reichsdeputationshauptschluss which is not only a nice German word but also was the true reason that for centuries no German was elected Pope. Completely irrelevant here, though.

However, some events of relevance happened.

Scene 3: The same small town, 1807.
Bert is again hiding in Bohemia. Eddie is still living with her parents, bringing up her little daughter Johanna. Her parents still disapprove her relationship with Bert, quite understandable: who wants to have a criminal as son-in-law?

Eddie finally breaks with her parents, takes her daughter and runs away to Bert. In Bohemia both marry.

Jane drinks poison. Although her suicide is a highly emotional act, it has something planful in it. Some hours after finding Jane, Simon commits suicide as well, out of sadness and despair for the loss of his wife.


Your job is now to find out:
1) What is the purpose Jane wanted to achieve with her suicide?
2) What is Bert's and Eddie's common crime? (not really necessary, but would round up the picture)
Ixoye724 (Ixoye724)
Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 2:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were Bert and Eddie involved in an affair? Bert was married to someone else when he met Eddie? Bert went on to become famous after Simon helped him escape? Johanna was Bert's child? Or not?
Rachel (Myth)
Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 3:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jane's suicide makes it harder/impossible for Eddie to inherit? Makes it easier?
Jane's suicide makes it harder/impossible for Bert to inherit? Makes it easier?
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 3:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were Bert and Eddie involved in an affair? A love affair, yes.
Bert was married to someone else when he met Eddie? No.
Bert went on to become famous after Simon helped him escape? He was famous already.
Johanna was Bert's child? Yes. Or not? Or maybe not. Who knows these women? -- just kidding. She was Bert's and Eddie's child.
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 3:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jane's suicide makes it harder/impossible for Eddie to inherit? Makes it easier? Impossible.
Jane's suicide makes it harder/impossible for Bert to inherit? Makes it easier? He did not expect any more inheritance. His parents were both dead at this time.
Ixoye724 (Ixoye724)
Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 3:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Bert famous only as a criminal? Or for some other reason?
Did Bert ever kill anyone? Did Eddie?
Was Jane's only reason for killing herself to prevent Eddie from claiming the inheritance?
Did Simon and Jane have other children besides Eddie? Relevant?
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 3:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Bert famous only as a criminal? Or for some other reason? He was regarded sort of a Robin Hood; he helped rich people to get rid of their property, but generously distributed to the poor what he did not need for himself.
Did Bert ever kill anyone? As a soldier: Likely. He took part in the battles of Kaiserslautern and Jena, for instance. Outside the army: No. Did Eddie? No.
Was Jane's only reason for killing herself to prevent Eddie from claiming the inheritance? Yes, because ...
Did Simon and Jane have other children besides Eddie? They had four children together, but only Johanna reached adult age. Relevant? Not really.
Ixoye724 (Ixoye724)
Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 4:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jane left the inheritance to Johanna instead?
Or left it to someone else?
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 4:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jane left the inheritance to Johanna instead? Yes.
Or left it to someone else? Well, she just excluded Eddie from her will.
Haenlomal (Haenlomal)
Posted on Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 5:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are laws regarding inheritance relevant?
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Thursday, November 24, 2005 - 11:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are laws regarding inheritance relevant? Not especially. I think we can consider it solved now. She excluded Eddie from her will and killed herself, in order to put the will into power immediately. $poiler to follow.
Haenlomal (Haenlomal)
Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 8:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So is that $poiler coming, Jens? :)
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 9:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

SPOILER - Hobson's choice

A man and a woman are lying dead on the floor. Their death is the ultimate consequence of a decision the man took 12 years ago: Chosing between a illegal and an indignifying action, he chosed the illegal one.

Bert, the thief, was in love with Eddie, the daughter of the local judge, Simon. Simon did, as you might imagine, not appreciate this relationship (not even to talk about giving his consent to marriage), and would have been happy to arrest Bert and see him in jail for the next 20 years, but the situation changed rapidly.

Eddie's situation, to be precisely.

Eddie and Bert were expecting a child, and according to the laws of that time, giving birth to an illegitime child was a felony. Punishment was three days of jail for each of the parents, but if the mother refused to reveal the name of the child's father, she had to go in for 14 days. So the law would require that Simon, as the local judge, jails in his own daughter. Still not that a big problem, Simon could send his daughter to relatives abroad for a while, or, as a last resort, arrange a marriage for her.

But then the High Court took over the case against Bert, and send soldiers to arrest him. And Simon could expect that during the trial, also many details about all the romantic relationships of this guy would have been revealed. Which would have made it more difficult to hide Eddie's pregnancy before the eye of the law.

So eventually Simon would have been in a situation either to send his daughter to jail, or to refuse to do so and put his job under a risk. A much better idea was then to prevent the trial from starting at all, that is, to help Bert to escape. And so he did.

The rest is, more or less, obvious. Bert flew the country but his and Eddie's passion for each other continued. Frequently they met in the deep forests on one or the other side of the border. The child (a daughter) was born and grew up with Eddie and her parents.

Simon and (in particular) Jane noticed very well what was going on and forbid their daughter many times to see that jailbird any more. Alone, Eddie did not listen, and announced that she, some day, will run away and marry Bert. Jane responded that she would exclude Eddie from her will in that case anmd kill herself the same day to put the will immediately into power. (The house and land and all the property of the couple was actually Jane's -- Simon merely had a, safe and respectful, though, but poorly paid government job.)

The rest is obvious. Eddie finally did, what she announced. And so did Jane.


Thanks to all who participated. I hope you enjoyed. And yes, Virginia, there will be a Christmas puzzle.

For your reference: Bert = Karl Stülpner (1763 - 1842)

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