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The Undertaker (Undertaker)
Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 9:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Welcome. I apologise if you have heard this tale before (not a classic lateral puzzle).

A man dies. A child dies. A man will burn in hell.
Ally McCabe (Strongplacebo)
Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 9:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Man 1 = Man 2? Different men?
Is Man 2 responsible for the deaths? If yes, directly responsible? Indirectly?
Religion involved?
Jennifer (Tigger32382)
Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 9:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

relevant how they died? murder? suicide? natural causes? did they die the same way?
The Undertaker (Undertaker)
Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 9:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Ally McCabe (Strongplacebo) on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 09:16 pm:


Man 1 = Man 2? Different men? different men
Is Man 2 responsible for the deaths? one death If yes, directly responsible? this oneIndirectly?
Religion involved? no

By Jennifer (Tigger32382) on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 09:19 pm:


relevant how they died? one death no, one death yesmurder? this onesuicide? natural causes? did they die the same way? no
Jennifer (Tigger32382)
Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 9:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

did man 2 kill man 1? kill the child? did they die at the same time? is the murder the reason that man 2 will burn in hell?
Ally McCabe (Strongplacebo)
Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 9:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he murder the man? The child?
Are any of them related to one another?
The Undertaker (Undertaker)
Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 9:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Jennifer (Tigger32382) on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 09:28 pm:


did man 2 kill man 1? no kill the child? yes did they die at the same time? no is the murder the reason that man 2 will burn in hell? yes - if you believe in hell

By Ally McCabe (Strongplacebo) on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 09:29 pm:


Did he murder the man? no The child? yes
Are any of them related to one another? yes
Ally McCabe (Strongplacebo)
Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 9:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the 2 men brothers? Father and son?
Was the child the murderer's son? Little brother? Grandson? Nephew? Uncle? (It's possible!!)
The Undertaker (Undertaker)
Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 9:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Ally McCabe (Strongplacebo) on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 09:38 pm:


Are the 2 men brothers? Father and son? yes
Was the child the murderer's son? yes Little brother? Grandson? Nephew? Uncle? (It's possible!!)
Ally McCabe (Strongplacebo)
Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 9:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So... does Grandpa die first? Then his son murders his grandson? Is inheritance relevant?
Did the murderer plan this? Decide it suddenly?
The Undertaker (Undertaker)
Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 9:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Ally McCabe (Strongplacebo) on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 09:48 pm:


So... does Grandpa die first? yes Then his son murders his grandson? yes Is inheritance relevant? no
Did the murderer plan this? yesDecide it suddenly?
Ally McCabe (Strongplacebo)
Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 10:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the murderer do this as a result of his own father dying? He planned all along to do it once his father was gone?
Relevant how much time passed between the 2 deaths? Days? Weeks? Years?
Was the child born before Grandpa died?
The Undertaker (Undertaker)
Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 10:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Ally McCabe (Strongplacebo) on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 10:01 pm:


Did the murderer do this as a result of his own father dying? yes He planned all along to do it once his father was gone? yes
Relevant how much time passed between the 2 deaths? yope Days? noWeeks?no Years? yes
Was the child born before Grandpa died? no
Ally McCabe (Strongplacebo)
Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 10:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the child a newborn when he was murdered? Under 10? Under 15?
Not yet born? He harmed its pregnant mother? Killed her?
Was his child his only murder?
The Undertaker (Undertaker)
Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 10:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Ally McCabe (Strongplacebo) on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 10:19 pm:


Was the child a newborn when he was murdered? yes Under 10? Under 15?
Not yet born? He harmed its pregnant mother? Killed her? no to these
Was his child his only murder? yes
ryan (Ryan_Nelson)
Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 2:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ok so largely recapping:
grandpa dies? of old age? sickness? tragic accident? natural causes? action of someone else? relevant?
then years later, the grandpa's son has a son (the grandson so to speak)? mother of the child relevant to the puzzle?
the grandson is then murdered by his own father? for selfish reasons? eg money? property? protection? royal lineage relevant? or for selfless reasons eg to save the child from a worse fate?
but either way the murdering father goes to hell?
hell in the sense of classical mythology? christian religion? something else? relevant? does this imply that the murderer dies in the puzzle?
would the situation have been different if the grandpa had still been alive? could he have protected the child? or would the father not have wanted to murder his son? does the father somehow blame his son for the grandpa's death? does the grandpa's death give the father the motivation to kill his son? the opportunity? the method?
Vae (Vaetrus)
Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 2:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was grandpa aware of father's plan to kill child?
Was anyone else aware of said plan?

Is there anything of monetary value involved?
Did the man gain anything from the death of the child?

Did Grandpa incite man to murder?
Is Grandpa involved in the second murder?
The Undertaker (Undertaker)
Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 9:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By ryan (Ryan_Nelson) on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 02:00 am:


ok so largely recapping:
grandpa dies? yes of old age? sickness? tragic accident? natural causes? action of someone else? relevant? not really no
then years later, the grandpa's son has a son (the grandson so to speak)? yes mother of the child relevant to the puzzle? yes
the grandson is then murdered by his own father? yesfor selfish reasons? erm...i think the majority of people would say it was selfish, yes eg money? property? protection? royal lineage relevant? none of theseor for selfless reasons eg to save the child from a worse fate? not like this, no
but either way the murdering father goes to hell? no
hell in the sense of classical mythology? probably meant at this christian religion? I presume that's whysomething else? relevant? indeed a good question. there could be an argument to say that this part of the puzzle idoesn't even need to be touched upon in order to initiate a $poiler. however, it would be nice if one of you could figure out why it's theredoes this imply that the murderer dies in the puzzle? no
would the situation have been different if the grandpa had still been alive? yes could he have protected the child? the grandpa? noor would the father not have wanted to murder his son? yope does the father somehow blame his son for the grandpa's death? nodoes the grandpa's death give the father the motivation to kill his son? yopethe opportunity? the method? neither of these

By Vae (Vaetrus) on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 02:21 pm:


Was grandpa aware of father's plan to kill child? no
Was anyone else aware of said plan? no

Is there anything of monetary value involved? no
Did the man gain anything from the death of the child? yes

Did Grandpa incite man to murder? no
Is Grandpa involved in the second murder? only indirectly. he's already dead remember
Jennifer (Tigger32382)
Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 9:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

is the child some sacrifice to save grandpa's already dead soul? did anything grandpa did while he was alive affect the murder? anything he said? is grandpa's will relevant?
Ally McCabe (Strongplacebo)
Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 10:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the mother of the child someone Grandpa might not have approved of? Were she and the murderer unwed parents, for example? Is incest involved?Was it an accidental pregnancy?
Was the mother in favour of the murder? Did she know it was going to happen? Did she ever know Grandpa?
Vae (Vaetrus)
Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 11:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Clarification, Father is in "Hell"?

Did father gain emotional closure? mental stability?
Emotional gain? Mental gain? Physical gain?

Did mother gain anything from child's death?
Is grandma involved?

Father dead? Mother dead? Anyone else dead?
The Undertaker (Undertaker)
Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 4:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Jennifer (Tigger32382) on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 09:57 pm:


is the child some sacrifice to save grandpa's already dead soul? nodid anything grandpa did while he was alive affect the murder? noanything he said? nois grandpa's will relevant? no

By Ally McCabe (Strongplacebo) on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 10:04 pm:


Is the mother of the child someone Grandpa might not have approved of? no Were she and the murderer unwed parents, for example? noIs incest involved? noWas it an accidental pregnancy? no
Was the mother in favour of the murder? noDid she know it was going to happen? noDid she ever know Grandpa? yes

By Vae (Vaetrus) on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 11:53 pm:


Clarification, Father is in "Hell"? no

Did father gain emotional closure? yes mental stability? no
Emotional gain? Mental gain? Physical gain? no physical gain. i'm unsure of the difference between emotional and mental gain. could you elaborate on what you're trying to ask? cheers

Did mother gain anything from child's death? no
Is grandma involved? no

Father dead? no Mother dead? noAnyone else dead? not relevant to the puzzle, no