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Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 3:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Before some people start to complain about the lack of puzzles involving dead bodies, here comes one.

A man and a woman are lying dead on the floor. Their death is the ultimate consequence of a decision the man took 12 years ago: Chosing between a illegal and an indignifying action, he chosed the illegal one.

Level: Intermediate.
Type: True story. Happened in Germany, 1807.
Initial hint: It was the only criminal thing the man ever did in his whole live.
Tim A. Dowd (Bodo)
Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 3:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So in 1795 the man (Bert?) did the illegal thing?

Was he murdered? Was she? Did he kill her? Did she kill him? Did either of them commit suicide? If so, him? Her?
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 3:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So in 1795 the man (Bert?) did the illegal thing? Yes.

Was he murdered? Was she? Did he kill her? Did she kill him? Did either of them commit suicide? If so, him? Her? Both committed suicide.
Tim A. Dowd (Bodo)
Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 5:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was his illiegal act something that would still be illegal today (like theft, murder etc.) in most Western civilizations? Is it relevant who committed suicide first? Did he commit suicide because she was dead? The other way around?

Are (well, were) they husband-and-wife?
Haenlomal (Haenlomal)
Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 5:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was he part of the nobility? Royalty?
Jennifer (Tigger32382)
Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 8:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

did he get caught doing the illegal thing? relevant?
Vae (Vaetrus)
Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 9:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it important that it was his only criminal act?


Does the woman know about the act?
Was she invovled 12 yrs past with him? Directly? Indirectly? Was the act committed 12 yrs past?
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 9:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bodo
Was his illegal act something that would still be illegal today (like theft, murder etc.) in most Western civilizations? Yes.
Is it relevant who committed suicide first? Yes.
Did he commit suicide because she was dead? Yes.
The other way around? So no, then.

Are (well, were) they husband-and-wife? Yes.

Haenlomal
Was he part of the nobility? No. Royalty? Not at all.

Jennifer
did he get caught doing the illegal thing? No. relevant? Yesish, but only in the way that things would have developed differently if he had gone to prison.

Vae
Is it important that it was his only criminal act? Not really. It just helps to picture the man as a very law-abiding person who did not take easy the decision to do a crime.
Does the woman know about the act? This is not recorded, but she might have guessed.
Was she involved 12 yrs past with him? Directly? Indirectly? Well, yes, they were married all the time.
Was the act committed 12 yrs past? Yes.
Jennifer (Tigger32382)
Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 2:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

did he steal? murder? did someone come looking for him for his crime? did the woman commit suicide because she was embarassed about his crime? to avoid giving him away?
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 2:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

did he steal? No. murder? No.
did someone come looking for him for his crime? No.
did the woman commit suicide because she was embarassed about his crime? No.
to avoid giving him away? No.
Jennifer (Tigger32382)
Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 3:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

vandalize? aid and abet a criminal? trespass? commit treason? forge something?
Tim A. Dowd (Bodo)
Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 3:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The crime ultimately did lead to the woman committing suicide, correct?

Was it bigamy?

Was she physically healthy when she committed suicide?

Did she commit suicide due to despair? Heartbreak? Did she believe he had been unfaithful? Would lose all his money?
Haenlomal (Haenlomal)
Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 3:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Their occupations relevant? If yes, was the husband's crime related to his occupation?

Class relevant (i.e. high class, middle class, lower class)?
Vae (Vaetrus)
Posted on Saturday, October 22, 2005 - 12:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the offense a major one?
Escaping (from prison, law officers)?
Committing/telling falsehoods?
Contempt of court?

Was the offense defensible? For example with...
Duress? Provocation? Something else?

Did she commit suicide because of the actual crime?
Or because of the choice he made?
Or because of something she did/had to do?

Was she part of his decision 12 yrs past? Did she influence it? Is she somehow otherwise involved with said crime?
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 2:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jennifer
vandalize?
aid and abet a criminal? That's what he did: he helped a criminal escape who certainly would have been arrested otherwise.
trespass?
commit treason?
forge something?

Bodo
The crime ultimately did lead to the woman committing suicide, correct? Let's say, with the criminal's escape the situation developed in a particular way.

Was it bigamy? No, but see above.

Was she physically healthy when she committed suicide? This could be debated, but, at least, from her point of view, she had a reason.

Did she commit suicide due to despair? Noish.
Heartbreak? No--ish.
Did she believe he had been unfaithful? No, and it is not known for sure whether she ever found out about the crime as such.
Would lose all his money? This could have been part of her reasoning, though.

Haenlomal
Their occupations relevant? His occupation, yes. She was mainly the housewife (though, there was something unusual).
If yes, was the husband's crime related to his occupation? Yes.

Class relevant (i.e. high class, middle class, lower class)? Yope. Middle class would perhaps fit best, but explore!

Vaetrus
Was the offense a major one?
Escaping (from prison, law officers)?
Committing/telling falsehoods?
Contempt of court? Nothing of them, but see above.

Was the offense defensible? If you mean, whether he, if put to court, would have been able to call on self-defense, then no.
For example with... Duress? Provocation? Nothing like this. Something else? To avoid something indignifying that you still have to find out.

Did she commit suicide because of the actual crime? No.
Or because of the choice he made? Please rephrase.
Or because of something she did/had to do? Yesish.

Was she part of his decision 12 yrs past? No.
Did she influence it? Yope.
Is she somehow otherwise involved with said crime? No.
Jennifer (Tigger32382)
Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 3:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

was the criminal he helped escape male? female? relevant? would he have had to turn the criminal in otherwise? was he a police officer? or otherwise related to law enforcement?
John Morahan (Wunderland)
Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 7:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did she commit suicide because of a mistaken belief?
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 12:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jennifer
was the criminal he helped escape male? This one. female? relevant? Yes.
would he have had to turn the criminal in otherwise? Yes.
was he a police officer? or otherwise related to law enforcement? He was the local judge of his town. You might, however, imagine him better as a sheriff, because his responsibilities were similar. He was investigator, public attorney, and judge for minor crimes in one person (Rousseau's ideas of an independent judicative did not have reached Germany yet), so he was the one who arrested, investigated against, and spoke the sentence on chicken thieves, pub brawlers, and so on.

Wunderland
Did she commit suicide because of a mistaken belief? No.
Jennifer (Tigger32382)
Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 2:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

was the criminal somehow involved with the wife? did they have an affair? were they related? know each other at all?
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 2:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

was the criminal somehow involved with the wife? No.
did they have an affair? No.
were they related? No.
know each other at all? Yes.
Tim A. Dowd (Bodo)
Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 3:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the crime (the one committed by the person he let go) relevant?

Did the released criminal commit another crime after being released? Relevant? Relevant when?

If he had convicted the man of the crime it would've caused him embarrassment? Loss of position? Loss of prestige? Loss of revenue?

Was his crime (that of releasing the guilty man) about to come to light 12 years later? Or had it already? Would/did the original embarrassment (have) also come to light?

Was the wife involved in his decision not to convict the man? If so, would it have caused her the embarrassment/loss of prestige/etc.?
Ixoye724 (Ixoye724)
Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 3:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, the criminal involved in this story knew the husband? And knew the wife as well?
If yes to both, did the couple keep in touch with the criminal in the days/months/years after his escape?
At the time of the double suicide, was the 3rd person (criminal) still alive? Does this matter?