[Lynne] Are you Kidding? Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Register | Edit Profile

Lateral Puzzles » Solved Lateral Thinking Puzzles » Solved Puzzles - November 2005 » [Lynne] Are you Kidding? « Previous Next »

Author Message
Lynne (Lynne)
Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 8:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Two brothers were feared in their town. They had spent their lives conning people out of their money, property etc. You name it, they did it. Nobody was sorry when the older brother died.

The younger brother approached the local priest and said that although neither of them had ever set foot in a church before he would very much like him to take his brother's funeral. Not only that, he would give him £50,000 towards the church's roof fund on condition that in his sermon he would call his brother a saint.

The priest was now in a dilemma - he could hardly refuse to take the funeral, but his integrity drew the line at calling the dead man a saint.

After a lot of thinking he said to the brother that he would do it, but he wanted the money first to make sure that he didn't back out of the deal.

The word went round the town and everyone turned up to see how the priest would keep his word.

How did the priest keep his word, keep the money AND keep his integrity?
Tim A. Dowd (Bodo)
Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 8:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This sounds really familiar, somehow--is it based on a joke/joke-type thing?
Ian (Image)
Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 8:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ugh... this has the smell of a difficult puzzle... :P

Ok, so.... Are the priest and both brothers male, adult, humans?

Did the priest in fact call the older brother a saint? Or did the priest call his own brother a saint? ("...on condition that ... he would call his brother a saint.")

Did the younger brother feel tricked/cheated/conned afterward? Or was he pleased with what the priest had done?

Did the priest declare the brother a saint of something? Like the patron saint of conmen?
Lynne (Lynne)
Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 8:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Tim A. Dowd (Bodo) on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 08:55 pm:

This sounds really familiar, somehow--is it based on a joke/joke-type thing? it's not original to me, so yes, you may well have heard it in some form - but it's an excellent example of creative thinking
Lynne (Lynne)
Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 8:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Ian (Image) on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 08:57 pm:

Ugh... this has the smell of a difficult puzzle... :P :O

Ok, so.... Are the priest and both brothers male, adult, humans? yes

Did the priest in fact call the older brother a saint? yes Or did the priest call his own brother a saint? no ("...on condition that ... he would call his brother a saint.") good thinking but no

Did the younger brother feel tricked/cheated/conned afterward? yes Or was he pleased with what the priest had done? no

Did the priest declare the brother a saint of something? no Like the patron saint of conmen? again, good thinking, but no
ryan (Ryan_Nelson)
Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 11:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ok does he make some pun on saint? or make an allusion to a specific saint (rather than declaring the brother one)? does the priest actually use the word saint in his sermon? a does saint in this contect actually refer to a 'good' person? saint bernard relevant? is there some reason why one wouldnt want to be referred to as a saint at this time?

is the tone ironic/sarcastic? or can the priest actually legitimatley believe what he is saying? does he read an obituary that is obviously about someone else?
everyone in the town knows about the deal, right? are they "in" on the joke as such ie do they realise that the priest has conned the conman? or are they shocked by the priest's sermon?
priest related to the conmen? victim of their cons?
Lynne (Lynne)
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 12:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By ryan (Ryan_Nelson) on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 11:51 pm:

ok does he make some pun on saint? no or make an allusion to a specific saint (rather than declaring the brother one)? no does the priest actually use the word saint in his sermon? yes a does saint in this contect actually refer to a 'good' person? yes saint bernard relevant? no is there some reason why one wouldnt want to be referred to as a saint at this time? no

is the tone ironic/sarcastic? yessish or can the priest actually legitimatley believe what he is saying? but yes here too does he read an obituary that is obviously about someone else? no
everyone in the town knows about the deal, right? yes are they "in" on the joke as such ie do they realise that the priest has conned the conman? they understand once he says it or are they shocked by the priest's sermon? possibly, but they are unlikely to disagree with him
priest related to the conmen? no victim of their cons? possibly, but not relevant
Vae (Vaetrus)
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 1:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So at the funeral, the priest declared, in all right of mind and free will, the dead conmen a "saint", in all general definition of the word?

Was that the only thing in his sermon?

Did the live brother do anything else to ensure his brother being labeled a "saint"?
Paul S (Psdubl07)
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 5:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does it have something to do with what the brother's death meant for the church?
Lynne (Lynne)
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 9:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Vae (Vaetrus) on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 01:02 am:

So at the funeral, the priest declared, in all right of mind and free will, the dead conmen a "saint", in all general definition of the word? yes or maybe yope, remembering that his integrity remained intact

Was that the only thing in his sermon? no

Did the live brother do anything else to ensure his brother being labeled a "saint"? no

By Paul S (Psdubl07) on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 05:14 am:

Does it have something to do with what the brother's death meant for the church? no
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 10:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Different meanings of the word "call" relevant?
Did the wording/phrasing the priest used allow for different interpretation?
Lynne (Lynne)
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 10:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Jens Weber (Sundowner) on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 10:50 am:

Different meanings of the word "call" relevant? no
Did the wording/phrasing the priest used allow for different interpretation? no - the word saint was used as in the meaning of ryan's question at 11.51 on Sunday 13th - a 'good' person
Lisa (Dlcygnet)
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 3:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is a specific saint relevant?
Is the movie "The Saint" relevant?
Does the pastor make a joke? Relating to the older brother performing three miracles?

What ARE the rules for sainthood?
ryan (Ryan_Nelson)
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 4:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

the other aspects of the priest's sermon - did he focus on sins? greed/avarice? envy? pride? forgiveness? any particulat biblical passages?did the priest attempt to put an ironic spin on the brother's conning eg the brother accumulating money helped other people not to focus on 'worldly wealth'? and so the brother is a saint for helping others not to commit the sin of greed?
Vae (Vaetrus)
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 5:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he some how communicate that he didn't really mean what he said? Or what the brother's intention was?

Did the priest keep his integrity through a play on words? A pun? An allusion? Illusion? Avoidance of words?
Lewis Zeiters (Lzeiters)
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 6:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he say that "others have called him a saint, but...", or something to that effect?

I remember something like this too...
Lynne (Lynne)
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 6:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Lisa (Dlcygnet) on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 03:33 pm:

Is a specific saint relevant? no
Is the movie "The Saint" relevant? no
Does the pastor make a joke? noish Relating to the older brother performing three miracles? no - the strict rules for canonisation are not relevant here, he used the word in the way you would say 'he was a good guy, a real saint'.

What ARE the rules for sainthood? I'm sure you can Google for them, but they're not relevant here

By ryan (Ryan_Nelson) on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 04:33 pm:

the other aspects of the priest's sermon - did he focus on sins? yes greed/avarice? yes envy? possibly pride? yes forgiveness? no any particular biblical passages? no did the priest attempt to put an ironic spin on the brother's conning eg the brother accumulating money helped other people not to focus on 'worldly wealth'? no and so the brother is a saint for helping others not to commit the sin of greed? good thinking, but no

By Vae (Vaetrus) on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 05:41 pm:

Did he some how communicate that he didn't really mean what he said? yes Or what the brother's intention was? if you mean about giving a donation for the roof fund, then no

Did the priest keep his integrity through a play on words? no A pun? no An allusion? no Illusion? no Avoidance of words? no

By Lewis Zeiters (Lzeiters) on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 06:09 pm:

Did he say that "others have called him a saint, but...", or something to that effect? no

I remember something like this too... :O
Lewis Zeiters (Lzeiters)
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 6:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

was this one of those where he reads a written statement, then at the end adds a disclaimer saying that he meant only _________ (every other line, every xth word deleted, etc.), such that it totally changes the meaning of the statement?
Lynne (Lynne)
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 6:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Lewis Zeiters (Lzeiters) on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 06:37 pm:

was this one of those where he reads a written statement, then at the end adds a disclaimer saying that he meant only _________ (every other line, every xth word deleted, etc.), such that it totally changes the meaning of the statement? no
Lisa (Dlcygnet)
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 6:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the priest say everything the brother asked of him... and then follow it up with something like, "I'm just kidding." and continue with his real sermon?
Lisa (Dlcygnet)
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 6:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Or perhaps...

"If a man who lies, cheats, and steals could be called a saint; then by thunder, that man was the most shining example of a saint there ever was!"
ryan (Ryan_Nelson)
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 6:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ok so sermon mentions sins etc - in relation to the "saintly" brother? in relation to someone else? does the priest say the brother is a saint because of something he was? wasn't? did? didn't do? said? didnt say?
any other aspects of the brother's life relevant apart from his conning? married? had kids?
did the priest make any comment on how at a funeral you always have to be nice about the deceased?
did he draw a distinction between this life and the next eg on earth he was hated, but now dea he is loved?
Lynne (Lynne)
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 6:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Lisa (Dlcygnet) on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 06:40 pm:

Did the priest say everything the brother asked of him... and then follow it up with something like, "I'm just kidding." and continue with his real sermon? no

By Lisa (Dlcygnet) on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 06:42 pm:

Or perhaps...

"If a man who lies, cheats, and steals could be called a saint; then by thunder, that man was the most shining example of a saint there ever was!" no :)

By ryan (Ryan_Nelson) on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 06:44 pm:

ok so sermon mentions sins etc - in relation to the "saintly" brother? yes in relation to someone else? yes does the priest say the brother is a saint because of something he was? no wasn't? noish did? didn't do? said? didnt say? none of the others
any other aspects of the brother's life relevant apart from his conning? no married? n/r had kids? n/r
did the priest make any comment on how at a funeral you always have to be nice about the deceased? no
did he draw a distinction between this life and the next eg on earth he was hated, but now dead he is loved? no
ryan (Ryan_Nelson)
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 7:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

someone else relevant? famous? biblical? or another conman? the brother at the funeral? does he include in his sermon about the "donation"?
Lynne (Lynne)
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 7:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By ryan (Ryan_Nelson) on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 07:10 pm:

someone else relevant? yes famous? no biblical? no or another conman? yes the brother at the funeral? yes does he include in his sermon about the "donation"? no
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 7:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Compared to his brother the extortionist, he was a saint"?
Lynne (Lynne)
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 7:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab) on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 07:16 pm:

"Compared to his brother the extortionist, he was a saint"? YES

******** SPOILER *********

The priest spoke for ten minutes on all the vices of the dead man, and ended by saying "Compared to his brother, he was a saint"


Well done, but kudos too for all the ground work by ryan, lisa and others :)
ryan (Ryan_Nelson)
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 7:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

nice puzzle, lynne
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 7:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh, very much, thanks for the groundwork. I had just taken a look at this one for the first time today.
Lynne (Lynne)
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 7:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I rattled the spoiler off a bit quickly -

The priest of course included a dramatic pause and a big BUT when concluding his diatribe.... :O

Add Your Message Here
Post:
Username: Posting Information:
This is a private posting area. Only registered users and moderators may post messages here.
Password:
Options: Enable HTML code in message
Automatically activate URLs in message
Action: