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Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 12:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A man lies, dead, on the beach.

No, this is not any of the classics.

Difficulty level: I really don't know could be quick, could be a long one.

Special knowledge: none required
John Morahan (Wunderland)
Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 12:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dead because of: murder? manslaughter? suicide? accident? natural causes? natural disaster? execution? act of war? terrorism? supernatural causes?
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 12:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

John Morahan (Wunderland) Monday, November 28, 2005 - 12:20 am

Dead because of: murder? manslaughter? suicide? accident?
natural causes? This one, primarily,
natural disaster? execution?
act of war? Although this one entered into the picture in a way;
terrorism? supernatural causes? and none of the others.
John Morahan (Wunderland)
Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 12:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

illness? old age? heart attack?
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 12:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

John Morahan (Wunderland) on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 12:38 am

illness? Actual cause of death? This one. Apparent cause of death? Something else.
old age? heart attack?
Kristoffer Dominique Albeus (Kristoffer)
Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 7:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

what actually do we have to guess? the cause of death and the apparent cause of death, ayt?

actual cause of death relevant? apparent cause of death relevant?

does it involve water? tsunami? twister? drowning? starvation? storm? typhoon? blood?
are there other people involved? animals? plants? other creatures?

are there other things that we have to figure out to help is in solving the story? (like surfboard? oxygen tank? etc)

real story / fictional? may happen in real life?
does this involve a long story within (from the past maybe? like the classic penguin soup, etc)
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 9:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kristoffer on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 07:06 am
Hello, Kristoffer. Nice to meet you.

what actually do we have to guess? There's quite a story attached to the puzzle statement. If I told you exactly what it was, I'd give away the puzzle the cause of death and the apparent cause of death, ayt? those would be good starting points, yes.

actual cause of death relevant? Yes. apparent cause of death relevant? Yes.

does it involve water? One does.
tsunami? twister? drowning? The apparent cause of death is this one. |starvation? storm? typhoon? blood? none of the others apply.

are there other people involved? |b{Oh, yes! Several relevant sets.} animals? plants? other creatures? No relevant plants, animals or other creatures, though.

are there other things that we have to figure out to help is in solving the story? There are a couple of items that it would be helpful to know about, but you might be able to solve without them....(like surfboard? oxygen tank? etc) Neither of these, though.

real story / fictional? Real. Good question. may happen in real life? Did happen.
does this involve a long story within I'm not sure what you mean, exactly, here. The situation the puzzle statement describes is complicated, yes. (from the past maybe? Yes. like the classic penguin soup, etc) I'm not familiar with that one. I know about eating albatross, though.
Kristoffer Dominique Albeus (Kristoffer)
Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 5:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

penguin soup is a variant of the albatross. :)


ic. so apparently, he died of drowning. regarding the actual cause, it was an illness, right? does it involve:
a part of the body?
knowing the part relevant?
is it:
the eye? nose? heart? lungs? mouth? stomach? bones? ligaments? cartilage? hair? skin?


was his death intentional or not?


about the war that entered the picture:
was he involved here?
a family member involved? relative? or a friend?
is this a war that involved guns? or was it a passive one (like the cold war)? did the war had an effect on him?
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 7:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kristoffer on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 05:41 pm

penguin soup is a variant of the albatross. Ah. OK.


so apparently, he died of drowning. He appeared to have died of drowning, yes.
regarding the actual cause, it was an illness, right? Yes.

does it involve:
a part of the body? Yes.
knowing the part relevant? Yes.
is it:
the eye?
nose?
heart?
lungs? This one.
mouth?
stomach?
bones?
ligaments?
cartilage?
hair?
skin? and none of the others.

was his death intentional or not? No. It neither was intentional, nor did it appear intentional.


about the war that entered the picture:
was he involved here? Yes. But this needs some exploring...
a family member involved? relative? or a friend? No.
is this a war that involved guns? Yes, quite a lot of guns...
or was it a passive one (like the cold war)? so no.
did the war had an effect on him? On the contrary...
Ostap Bender (Ostap)
Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 7:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the man a diver?
Did he die in the water?
Was he, at any time, below the surface of the water? if so: was he dead then? alive?
Any submarine involved?
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 7:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ostap on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 07:20 pm

Was the man a diver? No.
Did he die in the water? No.
Was he, at any time, below the surface of the water? Ah! Good question. Yes.
if so: was he dead then? alive? Dead.
Any submarine involved? Yes.
Ostap Bender (Ostap)
Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 8:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Could the event that led to the man's death be described as accident? stupid mistake? gross negligence? were safety regulations ignored?
Did the man die in the submarine? Was he ever in the submarine? Was the submarine ever in the water? Was the submarine yellow? (just kidding)
Did his lungs get damaged? if so: did air pressure/water pressure/rapid change in pressure have a role in this?
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 9:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ostap on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 08:20 pm

Could the event that led to the man's death be described as accident? stupid mistake? gross negligence? were safety regulations ignored? None of these; he actually died of an illness.
Did the man die in the submarine? No.
Was he ever in the submarine? Yes.
Was the submarine ever in the water? Yes.
Was the submarine yellow? (just kidding) Nope. Standard Naval Grey.

Did his lungs get damaged? Hmmm. Yes, but may mislead...
if so: did air pressure/water pressure/rapid change in pressure have a role in this? No. Illness, remember?
Jennifer (Tigger32382)
Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 9:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did anyone else die? actually by drowning? is that why you would have thought he died by drowning? was the real illness emphesyma? lung cancer? pneumonia? did he die in the submarine and the other soldiers just dumped his body into the water?
Haenlomal (Haenlomal)
Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 9:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Umm....is the war in question WWII? D-Day relevant? If yes to these questions, I'll exit from this puzzle, as I think I know about it....
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 10:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tigger32382 on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 09:25 pm:

Did anyone else die? Not directly in this puzzle, so No.
actually by drowning? No.
is that why you would have thought he died by drowning? No. There was another reason he appeared to have died by drowning.
was the real illness emphesyma?
lung cancer?
pneumonia? Pneumonia it is.
did he die in the submarine and the other soldiers just dumped his body into the water? No, and no-ish.

Haenlomal on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 09:46 pm:

Umm....is the war in question WWII? D-Day relevant? If yes to these questions, I'll exit from this puzzle, as I think I know about it....Yes, yes, and I'm not surprised that you know it. Feel free to kibitz via e-mail if you think I'm making it too difficult...
Tom Waddell (Tsoram1970)
Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 - 10:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

hmm.. now I'm confused... I too had the WWII idea, but mine involves Italy landings... I'll email...
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 - 1:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You got it too, Tom. Different sources, different details.
Ixoye724 (Ixoye724)
Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 3:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Had the man's body washed ashore? Been put there by someone?
The man had been in a submarine previously, and was dead in the sub, is that right?
Was he alive when he entered the sub?
While alive, was he actively serving in the navy? army? marines? other?
Is the man's age relevant?
Tim A. Dowd (Bodo)
Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 4:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This sounds familiar--I think someone (Tom? Was it you?) may've run it before a few years back, so I must recuse myself UFN.
Tom Waddell (Tsoram1970)
Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 7:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Not sure Tim..I could well have...it's a good story for a puzzle....
Haenlomal (Haenlomal)
Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 9:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It is a good story. I first read about it in a book for children, believe it or not. And I've also seen this scenario being played out on a sci-fi show, with specific details only slightly changed to fit the sci-fi theme.
Kristoffer Dominique Albeus (Kristoffer)
Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 6:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

can you guys who know the story answer the questions to keep this alive!?! :) or are you not allowed?
Tom Waddell (Tsoram1970)
Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 4:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Question of politeness and ettiquette.. Basically this is not our puzzle and so we do not answer unless we have been given permission to by the setter.

Also although I know enough of the answer to spoil, as she has pointed out, my version is slightly different. Given that questions usually look for details, I could easily mislead you, or give you an answer that while correct in my version is completely wrong in hers.example in question... I had Italy landings...her detail says D-Day...

Barbara last posted on Tuesday 29th...ie last week... give her a chance!
Drew Sollenberger (Sollen)
Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 3:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don't think answers are comeing but I want to know this one so I'm posting new questions anyways!

the idea is that Pneumonia makes your lungs fill up with liquid and so makes it look like drowning?

the corpse was dead before entering the sub? did they know he was dead? know he was entering the sub? did they intend for him to end up on the beach? to make it look like he drowned? to place him in the location? to somehow give thier enemies Pneumonia?

umm...i'll hold of on rest till someone answers what we got now.
Tom Waddell (Tsoram1970)
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 1:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I emailed barbara mid December to see if she minded me answering questions on her behalf. Unfortunately I have received no answer from her. Since this has now slipped into the limbo room, I am going to go ahead and post some answers to enable the puzzle to be worked on while some threads of thought are still clear to those asking...

Barbara, if you are reading this and want to take back over just post and I will fade back into the gloom where I was lurking....

The questioners:- Please bear in mind that my version is slightly different to her versionand so some of the answers may not be exactly what she had in mind. The basic story is the same, and the puzzle statement stands. I will try to keep to her story as best I can , but some details may trip me up. My answers will be in red to enable you to differentiate between my answers and hers



Ixoye724:

Had the man's body washed ashore?Yes Been put there by someone?No
The man had been in a submarine previously, and was dead in the sub, is that right?Yes
Was he alive when he entered the sub? NO
While alive, was he actively serving in the navy? army? marines? other? Barbara meant to say yes I think, but in my version No. Not really relevant
Is the man's age relevant?
Sollen:


I don't think answers are comeing but I want to know this one so I'm posting new questions anyways!

the idea is that Pneumonia makes your lungs fill up with liquid and so makes it look like drowning?yes

the corpse was dead before entering the sub?yes did they know he was dead?yes know he was entering the sub?yes did they intend for him to end up on the beach?Yes to make it look like he drowned?Yes to place him in the location?yes to somehow give thier enemies Pneumonia? No... and you were doing so well!

umm...i'll hold of on rest till someone answers what we got now.
Drew Sollenberger (Sollen)
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 8:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ahh a classic lTP of the style I like; thank you for continuing it for me.

Oh and please don't ask how it is just a day after you answered questions before the mods even discovered and moved this I am already asking questions on puzzle again :)


first were the people on the beach that discovered the body and the people in the sub with the body on oppisiot sides of the war like I'm assuming? same side? relevant either way?

was this a military move? that did/will offer some advantage in a military engagment of some time? that was used to trick/confuse the enemy?

was it relevant that this man was used? that he had Pneumonia? or only relevant that a man who appeared to drown was used? could a man who actually had drowned be used in his place?

did they want the people on the beach to think that the man had recently drowned? To make them think a he came from a boat/sub that was recently sunk?

now for a wild guess that will become a LTP in the future if it isn't the basses for this one: I recall that after the breaking of our a military code used by the enemy of WW2 we knew where subs where going to attack but were concerned that if we tried to save a single ship from a known sub we would reveal that we knew had broken the code and thus lose a significant advantage. As such on occasion we would arrange for it to appear that certin ships were destoryed by storms, accidents, ect rather then let the sub get to them; anything connected to try to make it look like a sub was destoryed for this reason?
Tom Waddell (Tsoram1970)
Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 2:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sollen:


ahh a classic lTP of the style I like; thank you for continuing it for me. No prob

Oh and please don't ask how it is just a day after you answered questions before the mods even discovered and moved this I am already asking questions on puzzle again

first were the people on the beach that discovered the body and the people in the sub with the body on oppisiot sides of the war like I'm assuming?Yes same side? relevant either way? Very relevant!

was this a military move?Yes! that did/will offer some advantage in a military engagment of some time? that was used to trick/confuse the enemy?This more than anything...

was it relevant that this man was used? that he had Pneumonia?Only in so much as he fitted a type they needed or only relevant that a man who appeared to drown was used? could a man who actually had drowned be used in his place? As long as the enemy would believe he had drowned.

did they want the people on the beach to think that the man had recently drowned?YES! To make them think a he came from a boat/sub that was recently sunk? YES!

now for a wild guess that will become a LTP in the future if it isn't the basses for this one: I recall that after the breaking of our a military code used by the enemy of WW2 we knew where subs where going to attack but were concerned that if we tried to save a single ship from a known sub we would reveal that we knew had broken the code and thus lose a significant advantage. As such on occasion we would arrange for it to appear that certin ships were destoryed by storms, accidents, ect rather then let the sub get to them; anything connected to try to make it look like a sub was destoryed for this reason? better not to post this kind of solution if you intend to use it... we have long memories! No... Enigma is not involved


Alright you're most of the way there... just a wee bit of information to get and we're done...
Drew Sollenberger (Sollen)
Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 9:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

so was there a particular ship that they wanted destoryed? the one important? should I try to find out exact details about the ship?

relevant if it is a ship or a sub that was destoryed? if so which?

was it a war ship that they wanted enemy to belive was destoyed? is this one not part of military? one part of military but not used directly in war(scouting, spy ship, transport ext) one used directly in war but not important to current engagments? one that is part of a current military engagment?

was the aim to make the enemy not chase a ship that they were trying to hide? mabye one that had something valubable on it? to make enemy think they had made a sucessfull strike?

and i'm going to stop questions there even thought I think I could keep going because I'm pretty sure I just figured out the answer heh. was a ship above the surface attacking a sub at the moment and people in the sub wanted enemy to think they were destoryed to stop the assult which will kill them eventually otherwise?

the people in the sub wanted enemy to belive that one of thier own ships was destoyed? that one of the enemy(aka the people who found the courpse) ships were destoryed?
Drew Sollenberger (Sollen)
Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 9:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

so was there a particular ship that they wanted destoryed? the one important? should I try to find out exact details about the ship?

relevant if it is a ship or a sub that was destoryed? if so which?

was it a war ship that they wanted enemy to belive was destoyed? is this one not part of military? one part of military but not used directly in war(scouting, spy ship, transport ext) one used directly in war but not important to current engagments? one that is part of a current military engagment?

was the aim to make the enemy not chase a ship that they were trying to hide? mabye one that had something valubable on it? to make enemy think they had made a sucessfull strike?


the people in the sub wanted enemy to belive that one of thier own ships was destoyed? that one of the enemy(aka the people who found the courpse) ships were destoryed?

and i'm going to stop questions there even thought I think I could keep going because I'm pretty sure I just figured out the answer heh. was a ship above the surface attacking a sub at the moment and people in the sub wanted enemy to think they were destoryed to stop the assult which will kill them eventually otherwise?
Tom Waddell (Tsoram1970)
Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2006 - 11:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sollen:


so was there a particular ship that they wanted destoryed?No the one important?No should I try to find out exact details about the ship?No

relevant if it is a ship or a sub that was destoryed?No if so which?

was it a war ship that they wanted enemy to belive was destoyed? is this one not part of military? one part of military but not used directly in war(scouting, spy ship, transport ext) one used directly in war but not important to current engagments? one that is part of a current military engagment?the actual vessel is unimportant... Military yes, but apart from that....Transport is closest

was the aim to make the enemy not chase a ship that they were trying to hide?No mabye one that had something valubable on it?Not valuable... but close to make enemy think they had made a sucessfull strike?Not in this sense


the people in the sub wanted enemy to belive that one of thier own ships was destoyed?No that one of the enemy(aka the people who found the courpse) ships were destoryed?No

and i'm going to stop questions there even thought I think I could keep going because I'm pretty sure I just figured out the answer heh. was a ship above the surface attacking a sub at the moment and people in the sub wanted enemy to think they were destoryed to stop the assult which will kill them eventually otherwise?
No. Sorry!
Robert Banfield (Robertino)
Posted on Sunday, January 08, 2006 - 1:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think I have it - the body is that of somebody/anybody, but which has been placed upon/allowed to drift onto a beach, in enemy territory, by the Allied forces during WWII, with the express purpose of providing the enemy with a false trail.

The body has been dressed in dark clothing as if the person would have wished to conceal himself (because it is a man) and therefore giving the impression that he was on some kind of secret mission.

Various documents have been placed in his pockets/about his person. These documents contain information, the purpose of which is to mislead the enemy into believing that an attack is imminent on a particular part of their sea defences and therefore to mislead them into moving heavy defensive forces into that area when, in fact an attack would actually take place elsewhere.
Tom Waddell (Tsoram1970)
Posted on Monday, January 09, 2006 - 10:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Robertino:


I think I have it - the body is that of somebody/anybody, but which has been placed upon/allowed to drift onto a beach, in enemy territory, by the Allied forces during WWII, with the express purpose of providing the enemy with a false trail.

The body has been dressed in dark clothing as if the person would have wished to conceal himself (because it is a man) and therefore giving the impression that he was on some kind of secret mission.

Various documents have been placed in his pockets/about his person. These documents contain information, the purpose of which is to mislead the enemy into believing that an attack is imminent on a particular part of their sea defences and therefore to mislead them into moving heavy defensive forces into that area when, in fact an attack would actually take place elsewhere.
VClose enough Robert for a spoiler!...

****************SPOILER****************

Depending on which version you are reading this incident is set just before the Italy landings or the D-day landings.the body was dressed, not in dark clothes, but in the uniform of a major in the British Army, and it was dumped just off the Spanish coast. taken on the beach by the spaniards and their fascist friends, the papers that the body was carrying purported to be the invasion plans.

Needless to say the plans were bogus... designed to make the Germans/Italians concentrate their strength in places away from the actual site of the planned attack.

But not just were the plans false, so was the "major". It was all a very well carried out operation (entitled "mincemeat") by British intelligence services- who had created Major William Martin from scratch, including unpaid bills etc...

This was the basis for a film "The Man Who Never Was"... also check out Operation Mincemeat

So a man lies, and he is dead, on the beach!

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