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Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 8:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

When I was a college freshman, my romance was nearly derailed by the combined disapproval of my family & my boyfriend's family, even though neither of our families tried to get us to break up & neither of us would have capitulated if they had. How come??
Ed Mason (Logician)
Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 8:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they disapprove of the relationship? Is the boyfriend's age relevant? Position in the college? Religion? Political persuasion?

Did they disappove of your relationship directly? indirectly? not at all? did they even know they were disapproving? (e.g. Did they voice disapproval of a certain activity, which unbeknownst to them you and bf actually did?)

Was the disapproval related to the identity of the bf himself?
John Morahan (Wunderland)
Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 9:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was your family's disapproval similar in nature to his family's disapproval?
Tim A. Dowd (Bodo)
Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 9:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Getting some of the other standards out of the way (for either/both of you): Because of ethnicity? Profession? Country of origin? Citizenship? Group memberships/affiliations? Academic major(s)? Social status? Money? Names? Future plans (or lack thereof)?
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 10:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Ed Mason (Logician) on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 08:57 pm:

Did they disapprove of the relationship? yes Is the boyfriend's age relevant? no Position in the college? yes Religion? no Political persuasion? no--in fact, he was conservative, but I never mentioned that shocking fact to my parents

Did they disappove of your relationship directly?
yes, but not with lots of fervor} indirectly? no not at all? no did they even know they were disapproving? yes (e.g. Did they voice disapproval of a certain activity, which unbeknownst to them you and bf actually did?) no

Was the disapproval related to the identity of the bf himself? no

By John Morahan (Wunderland) on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 09:00 pm:

Was your family's disapproval similar in nature to his family's disapproval?yope
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 10:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Tim A. Dowd (Bodo) on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 09:49 pm:

Getting some of the other standards out of the way (for either/both of you): Because of ethnicity? yes for his family; no for mine Profession? np for both Country of origin? ditto Citizenship? ditto Group memberships/affiliations? ditto, unless you count ethnicity as aq group membership Academic major(s)? no for both Social status? yope for both Money? no for both Names? ditto Future plans (or lack thereof)? ditto
Lynne (Lynne)
Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 10:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Jewishness or lack of it relevant?
Tim A. Dowd (Bodo)
Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 11:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did your family disapprove because his did--that is, was their disapproval what made your family disapprove?

Marital status relevant?

Was he of a "non-white" ethnicity?
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 11:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Lynne (Lynne) on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 10:29 pm:

Was Jewishness or lack of it relevant? yope--It wasn't relevant to my parents' disapproval, but it was why his familty disapproved. I may not consider myself Jewish but anti-Semites apparently do (although anti-semitism is almost nonexistent in the US nowadays). Here's what you still need to find out. Sam wasn't a bigot & weasn't influenced by his parents' prejudices; so why are they relevant? And what did my parents have againsty him & why was that relevant?

By Tim A. Dowd (Bodo) on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 11:13 pm:

Did your family disapprove because his did--that is, was their disapproval what made your family disapprove? no

Marital status relevant? no . We were 17-18 & single

Was he of a "non-white" ethnicity? no but irrel
Tim A. Dowd (Bodo)
Posted on Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 10:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was his family wealthy? Were one or both of his parents involved in an industry or business of which your parents disapproved? Did they feel he didn't treat you right? That you were too young? That he would distract you from your studies? Any relevant hobbies? Was he an athlete? Relevant?
Rachel (Myth)
Posted on Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 10:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

were there practical side effects of his parents' disaproval? Yours?
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 12:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Tim A. Dowd (Bodo) on Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 10:01 pm:

Was his family wealthy? irrel Were one or both of his parents involved in an industry or business of which your parents disapproved? no Did they feel he didn't treat you right? no That you were too young? no That he would distract you from your studies? no Any relevant hobbies? no Was he an athlete? no Relevant? no

By Rachel (Myth) on Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 10:55 pm:

were there practical side effects of his parents' disaproval? noish Yours? yope
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 1:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The fragrant honeysuckle spirals clockwise to the sun,
And many other creepers do the same.
But some climb anti-clockwise - the bindweed does, for one,
Or Convolvulus, to give her proper name.

Rooted on either side a door, one of each species grew,
And raced towards the window-ledge above.
Each corkscrewed to the lintel in the only way it knew,
Where they stopped, touched tendrils, smiled, and fell in love.

Said the right-handed honeysuckle to the left-handed bindweed,
"Oh, let us get married, if our parents don't mind, we'd
Be loving and inseparable, inextricably entwined, we'd
Live happily ever after" said the honeysuckle to the bindweed.

To the honeysuckle's parents it came as a shock.
"The bindweeds," they cried, "are inferior stock!
They're uncultivated, of breeding bereft,
We twine to the right and they twine to the left."

Said the anti-clockwise bindweed to the clockwise honeysuckle,
"We'd better start saving, many a mickle macks a muckle,
Then run away for a honeymoon and hope that our luck'll
Take a turn for the better" said the bindweed to the honeysuckle.

A bee who was passing remarked to them then,
"I've said it before and I'll say it again,
Consider your offshoots, if offshoots there be -
They'll never receive any blessing from me.

"Poor little sucker, how will it learn,
When it is climbing, which way to turn?
Right, left, what a disgrace,
Or it may go straight up and fall flat on its face!"

Said the right-hand-thread honeysuckle to the left-hand-thread bindweed,
"It seems that against us all fate has combined...
Oh my darling, oh my darling, oh my darling Columbine,
Thou art lost and gone forever, we shall never intertwine".

Together they found them, the very next day,
They had pulled up their roots and just shrivelled away,
Deprived of that freedom for which we must fight -
To veer to the left, or to veer to the right!


Michael Flanders
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 5:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It'ds a terrific poem, Woubit; now how about some terrific questions???????
Johanna (Buzzard)
Posted on Friday, November 18, 2005 - 12:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would the relationship have suffered if only his family have disapproved? if only your family had disapproved? Or did the fact that they both disapproved have some effect that wouldn't have resulted from the disapproval of either of them separately?

Your boyfriend's "position in the college" is relevant - was he a college student? the same year as you? at the same college as you?

Did his family know that yours disapproved? Did yours know that his disapproved?

Although neither family tried to get you to break up, did they try to influence the relationship in other ways?

At the time when all this happened, did you live with your family? near them? Did he live with his family? near them?
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Friday, November 18, 2005 - 8:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Johanna (Buzzard) on Friday, November 18, 2005 - 12:14 pm:

Would the relationship have suffered if only his family have disapproved? no if only your family had disapproved? possibly Or did the fact that they both disapproved have some effect that wouldn't have resulted from the disapproval of either of them separately? yes

Your boyfriend's "position in the college" is relevant - was he a college student? yes the same year as you? yesat the same college as you? yes

Did his family know that yours disapproved? irrel Did yours know that his disapproved? ditto

Although neither family tried to get you to break up, did they try to influence the relationship in other ways?only by expressing disapproval

At the time when all this happened, did you live with your family? no near them?about 300 miles away Did he live with his family? no near them? no

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Johanna (Buzzard)
Posted on Friday, November 18, 2005 - 8:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was your boyfriend's position in the college the reason your family disapproved? Did they think you should be dating someone who was not a student? a student at a different college? a student one or more years ahead of you?

Is it relevant how your family expressed their disapproval to you? (i.e. in person? by telephone?) Is it relevant how his family expressed their disapproval?

Did he ever meet your family? Did you ever meet his family?

Is it relevant which family members did most of the disapproving? If so, parents? siblings? other family members?
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Friday, November 18, 2005 - 9:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Johanna (Buzzard) on Friday, November 18, 2005 - 08:49 pm:

Was your boyfriend's position in the college the reason your family disapproved? yes Did they think you should be dating someone who was not a student? no a student at a different college? no a student one or more years ahead of you? no

Is it relevant how your family expressed their disapproval to you?no (i.e. in person? by telephone?) Is it relevant how his family expressed their disapproval? no

Did he ever meet your family? irrel Did you ever meet his family? ditto

Is it relevant which family members did most of the disapproving? no If so, parents? siblings? other family members?
Johanna (Buzzard)
Posted on Friday, November 18, 2005 - 9:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did your family object to the relationship entirely? Did they think you were getting too serious? Did they feel that college freshmen have too many life-changing experiences ahead of them to enter into serious relationships?

Would the puzzle work if there were another type of bigotry at work in your boyfriend's family? (For example, if you had been Black or Asian and they had had a racist dislike of those peoples?)
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Friday, November 18, 2005 - 10:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Johanna (Buzzard) on Friday, November 18, 2005 - 09:36 pm:

Did your family object to the relationship entirely? see next an swer Did they think you were getting too serious? no--in fact, we weren't all that serious Did they feel that college freshmen have too many life-changing experiences ahead of them to enter into serious relationships? no

Would the puzzle work if there were another type of bigotry at work in your boyfriend's family?yes (For example, if you had been Black or Asian and they had had a racist dislike of those peoples?) it would work for any form of racism or ethnic or national prejudice
John Morahan (Wunderland)
Posted on Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 7:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was there any relevant misunderstanding? by you? your family? your boyfriend? his family?
Anyone else relevant?
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 7:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By John Morahan (Wunderland) on Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 07:11 pm:

Was there any relevant misunderstanding? no by you? no your family? no your boyfriend? no his family? no. This conflict, like most, rested not on misunderstanding but on genuine disagreement and hostility that was grounded in the facts
Anyone else relevant? yes