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Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Sunday, June 18, 2006 - 4:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'd think a set of markers would work just as well. They'd be cheaper, too.
Steve Wort (Wizardofnz)
Posted on Sunday, June 18, 2006 - 6:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ooh, a Rabrab puzzle.

If the set of markers were being used, would they be used for the purpose that markers were intended for (i.e. making marks on something?)

If the markers were used, would they be utilising the same means to an end (e.g. Marking one's name into a piece of electronic equipment instead of carving it in and inadvertently damaging the equipment, thus making it less 'cheap')

OR

Would using the markers be using a different means to get to the same end (e.g. Using a marker pen to plug a hole in a pvc pipe instead of replacing the pipe at a much greater cost?)

Yes, I'm aware the examples are terrible, but I hope it illustrates the intended purpose of my questions.
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Sunday, June 18, 2006 - 8:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ooh, a Rabrab puzzle. Indeed. I know they're few and far between.

If the set of markers were being used, would they be used for the purpose that markers were intended for (i.e. making marks on something?) Quite so. YES, even.

If the markers were used, would they be utilising the same means to an end (e.g. Marking one's name into a piece of electronic equipment instead of carving it in and inadvertently damaging the equipment, thus making it less 'cheap') Yes to the general concept; no to the example.

OR

Would using the markers be using a different means to get to the same end (e.g. Using a marker pen to plug a hole in a pvc pipe instead of replacing the pipe at a much greater cost?) No to both concept and example.

Yes, I'm aware the examples are terrible, but I hope it illustrates the intended purpose of my questions. 's OK. I don't do great examples, either.
Steve Wort (Wizardofnz)
Posted on Sunday, June 18, 2006 - 8:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Right! Onwards, ever onwards.

Is the puzzle statement made in foresight or hindsight of marks being made on something? Relevant?

Was/will the implement (be) used to make marks on something, in itself, expensive?
Was/will there (be) an unforseen consequence of using this item to make a mark, which is in itself expensive?

Is the marker pen going to draw a picture?
Write something (letters/words)?
Make a mark or symbol on something?
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Sunday, June 18, 2006 - 9:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the puzzle statement made in foresight or hindsight of marks being made on something? Foresight. Relevant? I think so, yes.

Was/will the implement (be) used to make marks on something, in itself, expensive? Which implement? The one that the markers replace? Yes, it's a fairly expensive thingumbob. The markers themselves? No. Explore this further.

Was/will there (be) an unforseen consequence of using this item to make a mark, which is in itself expensive? Yope. Rephrase.

Is the marker pen going to draw a picture?
Write something (letters/words)?
Make a mark or symbol on something? Could be any of these, singly or in combination.
Steve Wort (Wizardofnz)
Posted on Sunday, June 18, 2006 - 9:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

OK!

The 'implement' = something designed with a similar purpose to a marker?
Does it involve a higher level of technology than a marker?
Is it electronic at all?
Can these implements be held in the palm of one's hand?
Can they be bought over-the-counter at most good stationery stores?
Hardware stores?
Relevant that its a set of markers, as opposed to just one?
Are the marks to be made in different colours?

Medium relevant?
Paper?
Fabric?

Need to study for IR exam now.
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Sunday, June 18, 2006 - 9:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The 'implement' = something designed with a similar purpose to a marker? Yes, for svv of similar.
Does it involve a higher level of technology than a marker? Much higher, yes.
Is it electronic at all? Yes.
Can these implements be held in the palm of one's hand? Hmmm. Yope.
Can they be bought over-the-counter at most good stationery stores? No.
Hardware stores? No.
Relevant that its a set of markers, as opposed to just one? YES!
Are the marks to be made in different colours? Bingo!

Medium relevant? Extremely.
Paper? No.
Fabric? No.

Need to study for IR exam now.
Good luck. I'm going to bed. It's almost dawn.
Ian (Image)
Posted on Monday, June 19, 2006 - 2:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The electronic thing... Is it a computer? A piece of software?

Would it be smaller than a coin? Than a fist? Than a loaf of bread? Than a car? Than a planet?

Would it cost about.... (Please insert LTPF list of positive integers followed by LTPF list of currencies)
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Monday, June 19, 2006 - 3:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Howdeedo, Ian!

The electronic thing... Is it a computer? A piece of software? No to both

Would it be smaller than a coin? Than a fist? Than a loaf of bread? Than a car? Than a planet? Hmmm. Gotta go look that up... The whole expensive thingumbob is larger than a loaf of bread and smaller than a car.

Would it cost about.... (Please insert LTPF list of positive integers followed by LTPF list of currencies) Purchase price of the thingumbob itself would run upwards of 300 US Dollars. However, you've got an FA going on here...
Ian (Image)
Posted on Monday, June 19, 2006 - 4:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the thingamabob something you would purchase? Or just rent?

Is it the cost of the object that costs a lot? Or the upkeep of the object?

Would it be battery powered? Or wall powered?

Would it have buttons? Dials? Plugs? Headphone/speaker jacks? A moniter/display?

Is it a colour printer?
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Monday, June 19, 2006 - 6:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the thingamabob something you would purchase? Or just rent? If you had one, it would be purchased. Very few people (relatively speaking) have one, though many folks (roughly 25% of the US population) have had an experience with one.

Is it the cost of the object that costs a lot? Or the upkeep of the object? Both are involved, as well as another, more directly relevant aspect.

Would it be battery powered? Or wall powered? Could be either, but more likely to be wall-powered.

Would it have buttons? yes, at least one Dials? maybe, but probably not. Plugs? yes, several Headphone/speaker jacks? No. A moniter/display? No.

Is it a colour printer? No.
Lynne (Lynne)
Posted on Monday, June 19, 2006 - 7:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it something that you would normally use in a shop, cafe, other commercial place?
Is it normally coin-operated?
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Monday, June 19, 2006 - 8:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it something that you would normally use in a shop, cafe, other commercial place? Yope. You wouldn't use it yourself at all, but it's used in a commercial place. It's used in a shop, for svv of "shop".
Is it normally coin-operated? NO
Steve Wort (Wizardofnz)
Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 2:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Medium:

Paper?
Cardboard?
Plastic?
Blackboard?
Whiteboard?
Walls/Wallpaper?
Overhead transparency?
Wood?
Something more exotic?
Something organic?
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 3:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Medium:

Paper?
Cardboard?
Plastic?
Blackboard?
Whiteboard?
Walls/Wallpaper?
Overhead transparency?
Wood? none of these.
Something more exotic? yes.
Something organic? YES!
Steve Wort (Wizardofnz)
Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 4:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The body?
Tattoo?
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 12:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The body? Yeppers.

Tattoo? That'd be what we're looking for, YES! But not your ordinary tattoo...
Ian (Image)
Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 4:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

One of those temporary wash-offable tattoos that they hand out to little kids?
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 7:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

One of those temporary wash-offable tattoos that they hand out to little kids? No. They're about the same price (or cheaper) than a set of markers. But you're very much on the right track.
Steve Wort (Wizardofnz)
Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 1:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does this puzzle hinge at all on the foresight that one who gets tattooed would change their mind afterwards?
Tattooes of any religious/cultural significance?
Tattooing the image of Christ onto a sailor's back so they wouldn't get whipped (as some slavedrivers refused to flay the image of Christ)?
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 1:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does this puzzle hinge at all on the foresight that one who gets tattooed would change their mind afterwards? YES, very much on the right track. Now go lateral...)
Tattooes of any religious/cultural significance? No.
Tattooing the image of Christ onto a sailor's back so they wouldn't get whipped (as some slavedrivers refused to flay the image of Christ)? no, but an interesting concept.
Steve Wort (Wizardofnz)
Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 2:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

OK, so a non-ordinary tattoo which one would foreseeably change their mind about getting afterwards...

Someone who tattooed the name of their lover on their arm, but had a tendency to leap from lover to lover like lilypads (a la Steve [cross out] Paul [cr?
Steve Wort (Wizardofnz)
Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 2:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Huh. Just when I think I have the 'preview post' page all figured out...
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 8:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

OK, so a non-ordinary tattoo which one would foreseeably change their mind about getting afterwards...It's more that while people do change their minds after having gotten tattooed, very few expect to...

Someone who tattooed the name of their lover on their arm, but had a tendency to leap from lover to lover like lilypads (a la Steve Paul?
Such a one could be very glad to have the non-standard tattoo a the heart of the puzzle. Incidentally, I think you were looking for the "\strike" command.
Ian (Image)
Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 8:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So the idea is to give people tattoos with magic marker so they don't spend thousands on laser surgery to get the tattoo removed later? Would this be done with a particular group of people requesting tattoos? For certain images requested? For areas of tattooing? Is the idea that if someone walks into a tattoo parlor and is obviously totally wasted, the owner can give them a marker tattoo so they don't wake up in the morning with a headache and the word "supercalafragilisticexpeialadocious" tattooed across their face?
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 2:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So the idea is to give people tattoos with magic marker so they don't spend thousands on laser surgery to get the tattoo removed later?
Very, very close to this, but the actual answer does not, in fact, involve magic markers.

Would this be done with a particular group of people requesting tattoos? There will be a group who will, I'm sure, avail themselves of these special tattoos.

For certain images requested? Possibly.
For areas of tattooing? Possibly, but neither of these are really relevant.

Is the idea that if someone walks into a tattoo parlor and is obviously totally wasted, the owner can give them a marker tattoo so they don't wake up in the morning with a headache and the word "supercalafragilisticexpeialadocious" tattooed across their face? No, only a very unscrupulous tattooist would apply one of these special tattoos without express permission. But I love the image!
Steve Wort (Wizardofnz)
Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 3:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You love the visual, or Ian? :P

Are these people vying for jobs in areas that look favourably on certain tattoos? (E.g. dockworkers, coffee bars, bouncers, bike messengers)
Are these people entering in lookalike competitions with tattooed people?
Ian (Image)
Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 3:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So someone developed a rediculously expensive method of tattooing that can be easily removed? With soap and water? So that people (minors?) who want tattoos can get them and have them removed easily? (Incase parents object?) And you figure its better to use markers instead?

The group who would likely get the tattoos, are they connected by proffession? Are they actors/actresses? Who get temporary tattoos for use in movies?
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 4:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You love the visual, or Ian? :P The visual. When someone is being a turkey now, I shall simply picture them with "supercalafragilisticexpeialadocious" tattooed across their face. I suspect it will make life much more amusing, and rather less stressful.

Are these people vying for jobs in areas that look favourably on certain tattoos? (E.g. dockworkers, coffee bars, bouncers, bike messengers)
No.
Are these people entering in lookalike competitions with tattooed people? not this, either.


So someone developed a rediculously expensive method of tattooing that can be easily removed? Not exactly, but much more YES than Yope... With soap and water? Not quite that easily, but OTRT. So that people (minors?) who want tattoos can get them and have them removed easily? (Incase parents object?) I don't think so. As I understand it, all the same requirements for permission and consent will still apply. And you figure its better to use markers instead? It certainly makes more sense to me.

The group who would likely get the tattoos, are they connected by proffession? Not necessarily, but there are professions that are more likely to fall into the group. Are they actors/actresses? Who get temporary tattoos for use in movies? These folks could be a part of the group. It's more a grouping by attitude than by anything else.
Christiane Scharf (0815)
Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 10:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, you could go to a tattoo parlor and get a tattoo painted on your skin instead of pierced into the skin. That would certainly be a waste of money, since it would only last a few weeks. Relevant?

Do we have to compare the marker "tattoos" to tattoos that last a few days? a few weeks? a few months? a few years?
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 2:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, you could go to a tattoo parlor and get a tattoo painted on your skin instead of pierced into the skin. That would certainly be a waste of money, since it would only last a few weeks. Relevant? Yes, relevant.

Do we have to compare the marker "tattoos" to tattoos that last a few days? a few weeks? a few months? a few years? YES! between a few months and a few years. You're very very close, I think, so I'll

RECAP.


Many folks have at least one tattoo (the estimate in the US is 25% of the population.) But some folks, for whatever reason, want to change or get rid of tattoos after a period of time. With a standard tattoo, this is a painful and expensive procedure. A special type of tattoo is in development for these folks, but I think that a pack of markers would work just as well, and be cheaper. Less painful, too. What's the deal with the new tattoos? They don't wash off with soap and water, and they require the same equipment, tattooist, healing time, and pain to apply as a standard one.
Christiane Scharf (0815)
Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 3:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do we have to find out the exact technique how these 1-year tattoos are applied?

Are they painted on the skin?
Are they pierced into the skin? Maybe less deep than a normal tattoo?

Do they use special colours that will fade away faster?
Can the colours be neutralized somehow? Maybe the colours are lost when exposed to some kind of irradiation?
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 4:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do we have to find out the exact technique how these 1-year tattoos are applied?

Are they painted on the skin?
Are they pierced into the skin? Maybe less deep than a normal tattoo?

Do they use special colours that will fade away faster? And here you have it!
Can the colours be neutralized somehow? Maybe the colours are lost when exposed to some kind of irradiation?


***************SPOILER:**********************

A tattoo ink company is developing a new type of tattoo ink. The pigments are biodegradable, and micro-encapsulated. In a period of time, ranging from about one year to just over two years, the encapsulation dissolves, and the pigment is re-absorbed by the body, completely removing the tattoo. (That's the theory, anyway.)

Using this ink results in a temporary tattoo, with no associated cost or pain for removal.

But getting the tattoo in the first place will still hurt, still require a skilled tattooist, still cost a fair chunk of change (more than a standard tattoo, in fact, because the ink is going to be more expensive,) and still have to be treated carefully while it's healing.

So if you know that you're going to want it gone after a while, why not just have it drawn on with markers? They'd work just as well, and be cheaper, too.


Congrats to Christiane for finishing it off, and congrats and thanks to Image and Wiz for laying all the groundwork.
Ian (Image)
Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 4:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Relevant what the paint is made of?
Christiane Scharf (0815)
Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 4:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hmmm... somehow I can't imagine this would look good after a few months when it's still visible but all fainted and pale. Half-faded hair-dyes are coming to my mind... :-(
Ian (Image)
Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 4:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

:P I guess my question came in a little late...
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 12:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sorry, Ian.

Apparently, the goal of this micro-encapsulated ink is that it rather abruptly loses it's integrity and disappears completely over a period of days or weeks, rather than fading and fuzzing slowly over years, like tattoo inks do now.

I still fail to see the logic in getting a tattoo that's deliberately designed to be temporary, although I admit I can see the attraction for fashion victims who are horrified at the thought of being stuck with a non-trendy design, and equally horrified at the thought of being unfashionably un-inked.

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