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Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 11:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I was walking along Oxford Street when it started to rain heavily. I had no umbrella on me, and no raincoat. I had nothing on me except my return train ticket from Waterloo and about 14p in loose change. How did I arrive home nice and dry?
Sam Greene (Pandora)
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 11:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do you live in Oxford street? Waterloo? Did you use the train to get home? the underground? Did hide in a shop until it stopped raining?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 12:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do you live in Oxford street? no Waterloo? no Did you use the train to get home? yes: I took a train from Waterloo to my home in Staines. Waterloo is roughly half an hour's walk from Oxford Street, I'd say. the underground? nope: couldn't afford a ticket .... can anyone? :) Did hide in a shop until it stopped raining? no: it rained for the rest of the day
Sam Greene (Pandora)
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 12:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Can anyone afford a ticket?? no it costs £65 to get to London from Bournemouth, daylight robbery!

Did you borrow an umbrella from someone? Did you walk from Oxford Street to Waterloo? Did you get wet at all any point? Presumably this all occured on the same day?

Were you actually soaked through but due to how useless trains are in this country it broke down and by the time you got off it 10 hours later you were dry!
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 12:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Can anyone afford a ticket?? no it costs £65 to get to London from Bournemouth, daylight robbery! :)

Did you borrow an umbrella from someone? no...Did you walk from Oxford Street to Waterloo? yes Did you get wet at all any point? not really, except very briefly when the rain started, and before I came up with the solution Presumably this all occured on the same day? right

Were you actually soaked through but due to how useless trains are in this country it broke down and by the time you got off it 10 hours later you were dry! Hahaha! Brilliant. Better than the real answer.
Sam Greene (Pandora)
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 12:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did you use the underground subways? any mode of transport? Did you use some sort of protective covering to keep yourself dry? Would you have come up with the same solution had you been in Charing Cross when it started raining? Did you do something with the 14p?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 12:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did you use the underground subways? no any mode of transport? except for the train, no Did you use some sort of protective covering to keep yourself dry? yes Would you have come up with the same solution had you been in Charing Cross when it started raining? no Did you do something with the 14p? yes
Sam Greene (Pandora)
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 1:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did you spend/do a trade the 14p on something? something to keep you dry? gamble with it? Did you create a protective covering with something you already had? Is there a particular shop/building/facility in Oxford St that is relevant?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 1:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did you spend/do a trade the 14p on something? yes something to keep you dry? yes gamble with it? no Did you create a protective covering with something you already had? no Is there a particular shop/building/facility in Oxford St that is relevant? yes
Sam Greene (Pandora)
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 1:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Particular shop? building? facility? a supermarket? did you buy carrier bags? a large sheet of cardboard? did you purchse one item?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 1:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Particular shop? yope building? yes facility? yesish a supermarket? no did you buy carrier bags? walk across London with a plastic bag on my head? I may be skint but I'm not THAT vulgar :) a large sheet of cardboard? no did you purchse one item? yes
Sam Greene (Pandora)
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 1:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

yopish shop - not a shop but somewhere this item could be purchased? a particular type of shop such as a stationers? was it a kiosk within a building?
Famous building?
Did the item cost less than 14p? was it made from plastic? paper? lightweight?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 2:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

yopish shop - not a shop but somewhere this item could be purchased? yes a particular type of shop such as a stationers? not really was it a kiosk within a building? no
Famous building? no
Did the item cost less than 14p? yes was it made from plastic? yes paper? no lightweight? yes
Sam Greene (Pandora)
Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 12:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the covering one of those rain hats that lil old ladies wear? (partially joking about that question!) failing that....
Did this covering cover your whole person? was it transparant? an everyday item that most people would have? something that is not normally used to protect people from the rain?
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 5:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is Oxford Street one of the few places where you can find this covering? Is it the only place? Or is it the only place where you can get it for less than 14p?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 2:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the covering one of those rain hats that lil old ladies wear? (partially joking about that question!) failing that.... no, it wasn't
Did this covering cover your whole person? no was it transparant? no an everyday item that most people would have? yes something that is not normally used to protect people from the rain? no: it is something that is normally used for this purpose

Is Oxford Street one of the few places where you can find this covering? no Is it the only place? no Or is it the only place where you can get it for less than 14p? no, but it is one of few places where it can be obtained for this price
Kitral Solane (Solane)
Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 3:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Poncho? Umbrealla? Sun umbrella? Raincoat?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 3:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Poncho? Umbrealla? Sun umbrella? Raincoat? it was an umbrella
Kitral Solane (Solane)
Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 3:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Anything else to figure out?
Did you buy it off a person?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 3:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Anything else to figure out? lots: mainly how I managed to get it for under 14p, and how I knew where to go

Did you buy it off a person? yes
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 5:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do you know this person? See him/her often along Oxford Street? With umbrellas? Does he/she always sell cheap umbrellas? Are the umbrellas sold in a store? Or just by one person along the street? Anythuing special about these umbrellas? Are they second-hand? Faulty in some way?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 9:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do you know this person? not really: I encountered him once before the occasion of the puzzle See him/her often along Oxford Street? see above With umbrellas? ditto Does he/she always sell cheap umbrellas? he did so, regularly Are the umbrellas sold in a store? yope: I wouldn't call it a store Or just by one person along the street? no Anythuing special about these umbrellas? no Are they second-hand? no Faulty in some way? no: brand-new and fully functional
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 10:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was this an umbrella with an England flag on it?
Steve Wort (Wizardofnz)
Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 7:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was it one of those disposable paper umbrellas? (one use only, but cheap as chips)
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 11:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was this an umbrella with an England flag on it?

Brilliant! No ... nor was it a Zinedine Zidane novelty umbrella

Was it one of those disposable paper umbrellas? (one use only, but cheap as chips) no: it was not a posh or expensive brolly, just a normal one of the sort that you can buy anywhere for a fiver or so
Sam Greene (Pandora)
Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 11:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did you give him something else as well as the money in exchange for the umbrella? Did you offer to do him a favour? haggled your way down to 14p? Did you appeal to his better nature and explain you only had 14p? did you make a bet with him? Was this man in a cafe? restaurant? one of those crazy super cheap outlet shops?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 11:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did you give him something else as well as the money in exchange for the umbrella? no Did you offer to do him a favour? no haggled your way down to 14p? no Did you appeal to his better nature and explain you only had 14p? no did you make a bet with him? no Was this man in a cafe? no restaurant? no one of those crazy super cheap outlet shops? not quite, but this is closest
Christiane Scharf (0815)
Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 12:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were there adverts on the umbrella?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 12:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were there adverts on the umbrella? no and irrel
Stefan and Philipp (Sobs)
Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 3:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would everyone else have paid the same price in that situation?
Did you pay 10p for it? Is the exact amount you paid relevant?
Are the umbrellas usually cheaper when it is already raining?
Does the man earn his money just by selling umbrellas? Is there another company the man works for which pays most of the umbrella's regular price?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 4:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would everyone else have paid the same price in that situation? yes
Did you pay 10p for it? yes Is the exact amount you paid relevant? not really
Are the umbrellas usually cheaper when it is already raining? no
Does the man earn his money just by selling umbrellas? no Is there another company the man works for which pays most of the umbrella's regular price? not another company as such, but on the right lines
SmarterBrother (Mycroft)
Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 4:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does the umbrella come free in a promotion with something else you paid 10p for?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 5:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does the umbrella come free in a promotion with something else you paid 10p for? no
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 5:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is he a busker? Does he have anything else for sale besides umbrellas? If so, are they as cheap?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 5:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is he a busker? no Does he have anything else for sale besides umbrellas? yes If so, are they as cheap? no
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 5:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Relevant what else he's selling then? Or the fact that he sells other goods?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 5:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Relevant what else he's selling then? yes-ish Or the fact that he sells other goods? yes
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 5:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are they complement goods to his umbrellas? Are selling cheap umbrellas a way of luring customers to him? Does he have many umbrellas for sale? If you had asked for 20 umbrellas, would he have sold them all to you at 10p?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 5:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are they complement goods to his umbrellas? not really Are selling cheap umbrellas a way of luring customers to him? yes-ish: explore the luring thing Does he have many umbrellas for sale? not sure: I suspect just a few If you had asked for 20 umbrellas, would he have sold them all to you at 10p? excellent question: NO
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 5:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So one person is limited to just one 10p umbrella? Had you bought something from him previously? Will you have to buy something from him another time? Would he sell umbrellas if it wasn't raining? Are his goods out in the open? Is this umbrella trick done so that his customers can be dry and happy as they look around and examine his products? Did you pretend to be interested in his other goods?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 7:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So one person is limited to just one 10p umbrella? in practice, yes Had you bought something from him previously? no, but... Will you have to buy something from him another time? no Would he sell umbrellas if it wasn't raining? yes Are his goods out in the open? yope Is this umbrella trick done so that his customers can be dry and happy as they look around and examine his products? good idea, but no Did you pretend to be interested in his other goods? no-ish
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 5:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If I went up right now to this guy and just asked for a 10p umbrella, would he sell it to me? Is there something that is required of me before he lets me buy it?
Would this work if he had 10p T-shirts for sale instead of umbrellas?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 6:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If I went up right now to this guy and just asked for a 10p umbrella, would he sell it to me? no Is there something that is required of me before he lets me buy it? yes-ish
Would this work if he had 10p T-shirts for sale instead of umbrellas? yes, apart from the keeping-dry part, obviously :)
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
New member
Username: Jumpingjack

Post Number: 84
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 11:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This is the first time you've bought something from him, right? Have you ever just looked around before though? Do you have to be a member of something in order to buy these excellent umbrellas? Anything inherent about you that is relevant? (eg gender, age, occupation etc?)
Sam Greene (Pandora)
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 11:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does this man sell these items in a market? Does he sell clothing? music/dvd's etc? fruit and veg? Tacky London souvenirs like Union Jack tea towels? Are the umbrella plain or do they carry some sort of advertising for him?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 3:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This is the first time you've bought something from him, right? yes Have you ever just looked around before though? yes ...my previous visit is relevant Do you have to be a member of something in order to buy these excellent umbrellas? no Anything inherent about you that is relevant? (eg gender, age, occupation etc?) no
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 3:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does this man sell these items in a market? not a shop and not quite a market, as such Does he sell clothing? no music/dvd's etc? I don't think so fruit and veg? no Tacky London souvenirs like Union Jack tea towels? not really Are the umbrella plain or do they carry some sort of advertising for him? it was plain black, but it's not relevant
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 4:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Previously, did he tell you that if you came back again he'd give you an umbrella for 10p? Did you get some sort of lucky draw coupon, which said "Congratulations! You may collect an umbrella for 10p."? Did you almost buy something the previous time? Did any money change hands during your previous visit?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 7:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Previously, did he tell you that if you came back again he'd give you an umbrella for 10p? no Did you get some sort of lucky draw coupon, which said "Congratulations! You may collect an umbrella for 10p."? no Did you almost buy something the previous time? yes Did any money change hands during your previous visit? yes
Robin Smith (Robin_smith)
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 9:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

did the shop keeper owe you money? amount of money that had changed hands previously relevant?

Was it lucky that the shop keeper was where he was when he was?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 1:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

did the shop keeper owe you money? no amount of money that had changed hands previously relevant? not the precise amount, no

Was it lucky that the shop keeper was where he was when he was? no: only in the trivial sense that I was able to buy the umbrella from him
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 1:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do we need to know what it was that you almost bought previously? When you took the 10p umbrella from him, did he also give you the item that you previously wanted? Had you made a deposit on this item?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 2:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do we need to know what it was that you almost bought previously? it might help When you took the 10p umbrella from him, did he also give you the item that you previously wanted? no Had you made a deposit on this item? no
SmarterBrother (Mycroft)
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 3:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the reason you didn't buy anything last time because he had run out of the item you wanted?
Did you even have a specific purchase in mind when you saw him the first time?
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 3:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

On this occasion, did anything else happen besides you giving him the 10p, and getting the umbrella?
When he saw you approaching, would he have immmediately known that you had come for the umbrella? (other than the fact that it was raining and so you probably needed one) Has he offered to sell you the umbrella before? The first time, did you give him money, or did he give you money? Was it a large sum? A small one?
Reason why you didn't buy the item previously relevant? Did you not have enough money on you?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 3:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the reason you didn't buy anything last time because he had run out of the item you wanted? no
Did you even have a specific purchase in mind when you saw him the first time? yope
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 3:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

On this occasion, did anything else happen besides you giving him the 10p, and getting the umbrella? yes
When he saw you approaching, would he have immmediately known that you had come for the umbrella? no!(other than the fact that it was raining and so you probably needed one)

Has he offered to sell you the umbrella before? an umbrella, but probably not the same one! The first time, did you give him money, or did he give you money? neither Was it a large sum? see above A small one?

Reason why you didn't buy the item previously relevant? yes Did you not have enough money on you? no, I had plenty of money on me on the first encounter
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 3:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hmmm. Is there a third person involved? Did you give money to someone else, then? receive money from someone else?
Was the umbrella that he offered to sell you the first time also going at 10p?
Was the item you almost bought an umbrella?
Did the two of you have an argument? A discussion? Some sort of consensus?
Did you change your mind about the item because it was faulty? You don't have the item now, do you? Do you still want it? Would you buy it, say, tomorrow?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 4:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hmmm. Is there a third person involved? yes ... several people are in the scenario

Did you give money to someone else, then? receive money from someone else? on the first encounter, neither
Was the umbrella that he offered to sell you the first time also going at 10p? yes
Was the item you almost bought an umbrella? no
Did the two of you have an argument? no A discussion? not really Some sort of consensus?
no, other than the 10p-umbrella transaction

Did you change your mind about the item because it was faulty? no: it was in working order, and even came with a guaranteeYou don't have the item now, do you? no: I didn't buy it Do you still want it? no Would you buy it, say, tomorrow? no
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 4:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh there was more than one encounter before the day of the 10p umbrella? How many--2? 3? 4? 5? 6? 7? Are they all relevant?
So during the visit just before the umbrella one, did you give him money? other way round?
People involved--you, him, and other customers? other shopkeepers? bystanders?
Did you realise the item wasn't exactly what you thought it was? Did someone tell you something that made you change your mind?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 4:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh there was more than one encounter before the day of the 10p umbrella? How many--2? 3? 4? 5? 6? 7? Are they all relevant? no: only one visit before the umbrella-buying day, and it is relevant that there was only one

So during the visit just before the umbrella one, did you give him money? no other way round? no, he didn't give me money
People involved--you, him, and other customers? YES other shopkeepers? sellers, yes ... it's not quite a shop bystanders? YES
Did you realise the item wasn't exactly what you thought it was? oooh this one is hard to answer .... very yopish, and when you solve it you'll see why Did someone tell you something that made you change your mind? no, I changed my mind for another reason
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 4:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So money changed hands, but you didn't give him any money, neither did he give you any, and you didn't give or receive any money from anyone else? Did other people give the shopkeeper money then?
Relevant how many other customers there were? Did they want to buy the umbrellas? Did any of them buy one? Were the umbrellas offered to them at 10p too? Did any of them buy the item that you nearly bought? Did they want to?
Did you discover something about the item that you didn't know before? Did you find out that people tended to form a certain unpleasant impression about someone who purchased such an item? Did this item have another use other than what you were planning to use it for?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 4:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So money changed hands, but you didn't give him any money, neither did he give you any, and you didn't give or receive any money from anyone else? right ... on the first visit

Did other people give the shopkeeper money then? YES
Relevant how many other customers there were? Within a certain range, yes. The exact number is not important Did they want to buy the umbrellas? some of them did Did any of them buy one? yes, perhaps three people, or so, bought an umbrella Were the umbrellas offered to them at 10p too? yes Did any of them buy the item that you nearly bought? yes Did they want to? yope
Did you discover something about the item that you didn't know before? yopish: depends what you mean by "before" Did you find out that people tended to form a certain unpleasant impression about someone who purchased such an item? no Did this item have another use other than what you were planning to use it for? no: also a slight FA
John Faben (Bentarm)
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 4:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

did you in fact buy raffle tickets for an umbrella?
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 4:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the FA that you were planning to use the item? Were you going to give it to someone else as a present? And then remembered/or found out that this person already has it?
The umbrellas: was there a kind of group discount? Relevant that a few/one of the customers bought the mystery item? Did any of their actions deter you from buying the item? Relevant why you didn't want a 10p umbrella the first time? Did those people who bought the umbrellas also buy something else? If yes, did they just buy it or had they bought it during a previous visit?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 5:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

did you in fact buy raffle tickets for an umbrella? no
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 5:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the FA that you were planning to use the item? yes Were you going to give it to someone else as a present? no And then remembered/or found out that this person already has it? no
The umbrellas: was there a kind of group discount? no Relevant that a few/one of the customers bought the mystery item? yes Did any of their actions deter you from buying the item? no Relevant why you didn't want a 10p umbrella the first time? hmmm ... another slight FA Did those people who bought the umbrellas also buy something else? possibly If yes, did they just buy it or had they bought it during a previous visit? they bought the goods on that occasion
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 5:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were you just going to put it somewhere and admire it? Was it a picture? Some kind of decoration?
Did you want to buy an umbrella the first time? Was there none left for you? If those other customers had bought nothing, would they still have been able to get an umbrella for 10p? Can't remember if this has been asked before, but on the umbrella-buying day, did you tell him you would buy another one of his goods the next time?
Did the seller forget that you hadn't bought the item previously after all? Did you pretend to be one of the customers who had bought the item? Was it a different seller from the one who served you the previous time?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 5:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were you just going to put it somewhere and admire it? no ... there's another, more lateral, reason why I had no plans for it Was it a picture? no Some kind of decoration? no

Did you want to buy an umbrella the first time? not especially Was there none left for you? not so: there was another reason for not buying one If those other customers had bought nothing, would they still have been able to get an umbrella for 10p? yes, but .... Can't remember if this has been asked before, but on the umbrella-buying day, did you tell him you would buy another one of his goods the next time? no ... I just left

Did the seller forget that you hadn't bought the item previously after all? yes: I don't think he recognised me on my second visit Did you pretend to be one of the customers who had bought the item? no Was it a different seller from the one who served you the previous time? no, it was the same guy
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 11:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So did the seller think it was your first time there? If he had recognised you, would you have got the 10p umbrella? Did you obtain some sort of information the previous time that enabled you to get this umbrella now?
Was your reason for not buying the umbrella the first time the same as the reason for not buying the item? Did the other customers know your reason for not buying the item? Are they complete strangers to you? Were they also planning to buy it but not use it? Is it an item that can be used? Is it a common item? Cheap? Valuable? If I gave it to you as a present, would you be impressed? amused? Would you still have no use for it?
You said bystanders were relevant as well, right? Were they watching the interaction between you, the other customers and the sellers? Was there a bit of a commotion? Did the bystanders say anything?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 4:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So did the seller think it was your first time there? yes If he had recognised you, would you have got the 10p umbrella? maybe, but probably not Did you obtain some sort of information the previous time that enabled you to get this umbrella now? yes: I learned the availability of 10p umbrellas

Was your reason for not buying the umbrella the first time the same as the reason for not buying the item? not quite, no Did the other customers know your reason for not buying the item? not really: they wouldn't even know that I was tempted to buy the item Are they complete strangers to you? yes: though I have seen one of them before Were they also planning to buy it but not use it? no: also FA Is it an item that can be used? yes Is it a common item? yes Cheap? depends how you defin cheap: certainly more valuable than the umbrella but a cheap example of its kind Valuable? ditto If I gave it to you as a present, would you be impressed? I'd be grateful amused? no Would you still have no use for it?
I would find a use for it

You said bystanders were relevant as well, right? right Were they watching the interaction between you, the other customers and the sellers? yesWas there a bit of a commotion? not really Did the bystanders say anything? possibly but irrel
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 5:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Relevant that you have seen one of the customers before? Do the bystanders do anything at all? Or is their mere presence relevant?
The item: is it some kind of electronic good? Does it need batteries? Would we normally use it at home? living room, bathroom, kitchen, bedroom? On holiday? At work? In school? About 10 pounds? 20? 30? 40? 50? more?
When you went up to the seller the second time, did you ask for an umbrella or did he offer? If the former, after you asked, did he comply immediately? Did you say something to him between the asking and the buying of it?

By the way could you give me a summary of what I've got so far and what exactly is left to find out? Thanks! :-)
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 5:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Relevant that you have seen one of the customers before? yep Do the bystanders do anything at all? yes, they buy things: or some of them do Or is their mere presence relevant? they are necessary for the scenario

The item: is it some kind of electronic good? strictly not electronic, but it's electrical Does it need batteries? yes Would we normally use it at home? possibly living room, bathroom, kitchen, bedroom? any On holiday? yes: frequently At work? poss but unlikely In school? poss but unlikely About 10 pounds? 20? 30? 40? 50? more? this one, if memory serves

When you went up to the seller the second time, did you ask for an umbrella or did he offer? hard to answer: not quite either, because there is something still to work out If the former, after you asked, did he comply immediately? I volunteered the cash and he complied at once, yes Did you say something to him between the asking and the buying of it? no

Yes, I'll do a recap!
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 5:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

**** RECAP ****

I managed to buy an umbrella for 10p from a premises in Oxford Street.

In order to get this bargain, I had to remember a previous visit, on which I was tempted to purchase another item. The other item happened to be electrical and priced at over 50 pounds. A fairly large number of people were on the premises on both occasions. I would not have thought of going to this venue to buy an umbrella but for the first visit, when umbrellas were also sold at this price.

To solve the puzzle, you'll need to find out the special nature of the transaction, and the circumstances in which I bought the umbrella. A full solution would be a step-by-step account of what happens on each occasion, and why.

There is nothing unusual about the umbrella.
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 9:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was it a camera? MP3 player? CD player?
Did you speak to the fellow whom who've seen before? Has he seen you before? How many times have you seen him? Once? Twice? Thrice? More? Did he buy the item? Do you have a good impression of him?
How long did your first visit last? How about the second?
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 9:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did you give him a 10p coin? Two 5p coins? Any pennies? Irrelevant?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 10:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was it a camera? yes, this one MP3 player? CD player? not these, though it would work equally well for any of these
Did you speak to the fellow whom who've seen before? no Has he seen you before? possibly How many times have you seen him? Once? this one: once beforeTwice? Thrice? More? Did he buy the item? the item I almost bought? no Do you have a good impression of him? no! good question
How long did your first visit last? perhaps 30-40 minutes How about the second? perhaps 5 minutes .... again highly relevant

Did you give him a 10p coin? Two 5p coins? Any pennies? Irrelevant? this one
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 5:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did this guy buy a 10p umbrella, then? Do you find him rude? cocky? aggressive? critical? annoying? pathetic? Did any of his actions affect your purchases? (the lack of them, rather) The very first time you saw him, you immediately had a negative impression of him? Was he alone? Interacting with someone?
Is your reason for not buying the camera personal, or would it also be a valid reason for the other customers to change their minds about buying it? After you decided not to buy the camera, did you leave immediately? When were you tempted to buy the camera--within the first 10 min? 20? 30? Relevant?
Umbrella buying day--did you talk to the seller for the first 4 min, and only got the umbrella around the 5th minute? At which point did you offer up your 10p--the 1st minute? 2nd? 3rd? 4th? 5th?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 7:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did this guy buy a 10p umbrella, then? no Do you find him rude? no cocky? no aggressive? no critical? no annoying? not really pathetic? not really Did any of his actions affect your purchases? (the lack of them, rather) possibly, in an indirect sort of way The very first time you saw him, you immediately had a negative impression of him? no: I formed one on realising something about him Was he alone? yope: he was among the people there, but wasn't with wife and kids or anything like that Interacting with someone? yes
Is your reason for not buying the camera personal, or would it also be a valid reason for the other customers to change their minds about buying it? a valid reason for anyone After you decided not to buy the camera, did you leave immediately? shortly afterwards: perhaps after five minutes or so When were you tempted to buy the camera--within the first 10 min? 20? 30? Relevant? yes it's relevant: I'd say that the feeling of temptation came upon me perhaps 20-30 minutes after entering the premises: it certainly wasn't immediate, let's say ... and it was brief
Umbrella buying day--did you talk to the seller for the first 4 min, and only got the umbrella around the 5th minute? I didn't really talk to the seller, except for the usual "there you are/thankyou" type courtesies on receiving the goods. At which point did you offer up your 10p--the 1st minute? 2nd? 3rd? 4th? 5th? late in the proceedings: perhaps in the fourth or fifth minute
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 7:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did you find out about something he had done? Something that was in his nature? Does he lack moral fortitude? So he bought nothing? Was he there throughout the 40 min you were there? Or did he appear somewhere at the beginning? middle? end?
During the first 4 minutes of your second visit, you had no interaction with the seller? What about with any of the bystanders? Were you the only one to buy an umbrella on this occasion? So were you just walking around before buying the umbrella? Looking at his products? Is there a minimum time period you have to be there before he lets you have an umbrella?
The first visit--were you doing the same thing during the first 20 min as the thing you were doing during the first 4 min of your second visit?
Did you want to buy the camera with the aim of getting something else? Were you planning to buy it and then trade it? Were you interested in anything else being sold on the premises? Would any electrical good be able to take the place of the camera? Would something going at the same price work as well? How about if the camera was even cheaper? Is there a minimum price below which the camera would no longer work for this puzzle?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 12:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did you find out about something he had done? yes-ish Something that was in his nature? no-ish Does he lack moral fortitude? this one is nearest: not quite how I would have put it! Let's say I thought he was morally dubious

So he bought nothing? yope Was he there throughout the 40 min you were there? yes he was Or did he appear somewhere at the beginning? middle? end? though I noticed him some time in the middle

During the first 4 minutes of your second visit, you had no interaction with the seller? true
What about with any of the bystanders? no:; I had no interaction with any of them Were you the only one to buy an umbrella on this occasion? irrel

So were you just walking around before buying the umbrella? no Looking at his products? very yopish again Is there a minimum time period you have to be there before he lets you have an umbrella? yes

The first visit--were you doing the same thing during the first 20 min as the thing you were doing during the first 4 min of your second visit?
yes

Did you want to buy the camera with the aim of getting something else? no

Were you planning to buy it and then trade it? no

Were you interested in anything else being sold on the premises? yes-ish Would any electrical good be able to take the place of the camera? within reason, yes: anything of similar size and value would work

Would something going at the same price work as well? so, yes How about if the camera was even cheaper? that would change the scenario slightly Is there a minimum price below which the camera would no longer work for this puzzle? yes, I suppose there is
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 2:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is he dishonest? Does he steal? cheat? Is he selfish? The thing he did: work-related? home-related? You only found out his dark deed after you saw him, right? So what he was doing when you first saw him is irrelevant? Time period between seeing him and finding out relevant? How you found out relevant? Yope for he bought nothing?? Did he leave with any product? Did he leave with a smaller amount of money than when he entered? Did he "buy" something intangible?
Does your reason for not buying have to do with the products themselves? or does it have to do with the place where they were being sold? other people? Was the camera pirated? Are all the goods pirated?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 2:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is he dishonest? yes, in my view .... I'll let you decide when you solve the puzzle Does he steal? not really cheat? this one is closest Is he selfish? irrel

The thing he did: work-related? this one home-related? no You only found out his dark deed after you saw him, right? yes So what he was doing when you first saw him is irrelevant? no, it's relevant

Time period between seeing him and finding out relevant? sort of
How you found out relevant? sort ofYope for he bought nothing?? exactly

Did he leave with any product? no! Did he leave with a smaller amount of money than when he entered? no! Did he "buy" something intangible? no
Does your reason for not buying have to do with the products themselves? no-ish or does it have to do with the place where they were being sold? not the physical venue, no .... but other circumstances of the scenario other people? not really Was the camera pirated? no Are all the goods pirated? as in faked or stolen? no, neither
John Morahan (Wunderland)
Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 3:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was he in league with the seller?
Was he present at the moment you bought the umbrella?
Christiane Scharf (0815)
Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 3:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he know the seller but pretended to be some normal customer? Did he only pretend to buy something (and play the Ohsolucky Customer)?
Was there a limited supply of cameras? Something like: "Only two left! Your last chance!"? Did the seller proclaim a limited supply of cameras (but in fact they had enough for everybody)?
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 3:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does he work for the same company as you do? in the same building? a rival company? Does he use underhand methods to get promoted/get a client? take all the credit for others' work? flatter his boss incessantly? sabotage his colleagues? When you first saw him, was he with his workmates? Was it a formal or informal gathering? Did you find out about him through word of mouth? Did you come across physical evidence? How long before you found out after seeing him--minutes? hours? days? a week? 2 weeks? 3? a month? a few months? years?
This stall is completely legal? Are they honest sellers? Are they cheating the customers? tricking them in a "read the fine print" kind of way?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 4:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

John:

Was he in league with the seller? YES! Nice job

Was he present at the moment you bought the umbrella? yes

Christiane:

Did he know the seller but pretended to be some normal customer? YES Did he only pretend to buy something (and play the Ohsolucky Customer)? he most certainly did!

Was there a limited supply of cameras? irrel Something like: "Only two left! Your last chance!"? no Did the seller proclaim a limited supply of cameras (but in fact they had enough for everybody)? no

Jackie:

Does he work for the same company as you do? no in the same building? no a rival company? no Does he use underhand methods to get promoted/get a client? no take all the credit for others' work? no flatter his boss incessantly? no sabotage his colleagues? no When you first saw him, was he with his workmates? yes, see above Was it a formal or informal gathering? informal Did you find out about him through word of mouth? no Did you come across physical evidence? no How long before you found out after seeing him--minutes? this one hours? days? a week? 2 weeks? 3? a month? a few months? years?
This stall is completely legal? yes Are they honest sellers? I would say noAre they cheating the customers? I would say so tricking them in a "read the fine print" kind of way? trickery is involved, certainly
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 11:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Slight blooper:

Does he use underhand methods to get promoted/get a client? correction: yes, to get custom: we've now established that he works in partnership with the seller
Sam Greene (Pandora)
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 10:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the seller some sort of demonstrator? e.g that you may find at a county fayre showing a group of people 101 uses for an egg whisk!?

Did you know the third person was in collaberation with the seller because he did the same thing the second time as when you saw him the first? e.g. pretend to buy a camera?

Did you change your mind about buying the camera the first time because you suspected the seller was dishonest?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 10:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the seller some sort of demonstrator? no e.g that you may find at a county fayre showing a group of people 101 uses for an egg whisk!? hehe, no: I know those things. But it's not unlike that, in that one person is addressing a crowd

Did you know the third person was in collaberation with the seller because he did the same thing the second time as when you saw him the first? e.g. pretend to buy a camera? yes: not a camera, but we can assume he did the same thing, though I didn't actually see it happen on the second visit

Did you change your mind about buying the camera the first time because you suspected the seller was dishonest? hmmmm ... sort of, but I had another, more obvious, reason
Sam Greene (Pandora)
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 10:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did you suspect the item to be faulty? and not work? Does the seller deal in cash only?

Does the 10p Umbrella deal apply to everyone? does he sell any other items for 10p? if no is there a specific reason why he only sells umbrellas at this price?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 10:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did you suspect the item to be faulty? no and not work? no Does the seller deal in cash only? irrel

Does the 10p Umbrella deal apply to everyone? yes does he sell any other items for 10p? no if no is there a specific reason why he only sells umbrellas at this price? no: it would work for any item of similar approximate value
Sam Greene (Pandora)
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 11:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do you only qualify to get an umbrella for 10p once you have been to see him for a certain length of time? Is there something specific that people must do in order to get an umbrella for 10p e.g. give him your email address? Does he make it public knowledge that these umbrellas are only 10p?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 11:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do you only qualify to get an umbrella for 10p once you have been to see him for a certain length of time? yes-ish: let's say I couldn't just stroll in there and buy one immediately Is there something specific that people must do in order to get an umbrella for 10p e.g. give him your email address? nothing like that, no Does he make it public knowledge that these umbrellas are only 10p? yope
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 11:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

He only informs you of the availability of 10p umbrellas after you seem to have expressed sufficient interest in a more expensive product? Then he sidles up and whispers that you can get a 10p umbrella? You got the umbrella even though you bought nothing, right? Did he hope that by selling you a 10p umbrella, you would feel obliged to make a larger purchase?
Sam Greene (Pandora)
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 11:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do you have to feign interest in his goods before he will let you buy one? do you have to listen to a speech from him before you can get one? Does he make it public knowledge that the umbrellas are cheap? Do you have to enter his premises before you realise the umbreallas are only 10p? does he give any sort of demonstration with his goods? do a sales pitch to customers? in which he reveals you can get an umbrella for 10p?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 12:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

He only informs you of the availability of 10p umbrellas after you seem to have expressed sufficient interest in a more expensive product? sort of, but this may mislead Then he sidles up and whispers that you can get a 10p umbrella? LOL! no sidling is involved You got the umbrella even though you bought nothing, right? I bought the umbrella, and only the umbrella Did he hope that by selling you a 10p umbrella, you would feel obliged to make a larger purchase? yes ... but let's say "tempted" rather than "obliged". He wasn't appealing to my sense of fair play
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 1:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do you have to feign interest in his goods before he will let you buy one? hmmmm .... sort of do you have to listen to a speech from him before you can get one? YES Does he make it public knowledge that the umbrellas are cheap? very yopish again Do you have to enter his premises before you realise the umbreallas are only 10p? YES does he give any sort of demonstration with his goods? no do a sales pitch to customers? yes, very much so in which he reveals you can get an umbrella for 10p? not really: there's still one crucial factor which needs to be figured out
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 1:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did you only get the umbrella after listening to a sales pitch for the camera?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 1:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did you only get the umbrella after listening to a sales pitch for the camera? Another yope I'm afraid. Of course the umbrella was bought on Visit 2 and the temptation to buy the camera was on Visit 1, but it's also a yope for another reason.
Sam Greene (Pandora)
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 1:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

On the first occasion, did you need a camera? were tempted to buy one just becasue it was so cheap?
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 1:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

And then were put off by the sneaky sellers? But put aside your unhappiness the second time because you really needed the umbrella, yes? Did sneaky seller #2 pose as a customer who had "won" something else besides a 10p umbrella? Was the 10p umbrella a taster of bigger prizes to come?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 1:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

On the first occasion, did you need a camera? NO were tempted to buy one just becasue it was so cheap? no but with a slight -ish
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 1:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

And then were put off by the sneaky sellers? no: let's just say that I was tempted briefly, but sanity prevailed

But put aside your unhappiness the second time because you really needed the umbrella, yes? no real unhappiness: I certainly needed the umbrella though!

Did sneaky seller #2 pose as a customer who had "won" something else besides a 10p umbrella? YES: but not "win" exactly: he pretended to purchase items. He was a "plant". Was the 10p umbrella a taster of bigger prizes to come? YES: bigger, more expensive goods to come, but not prizes
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 1:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do we need to know what exactly those big expensive goods are?
So you thought that if you bought the camera, you would be able to purchase those goods at very low prices? Then it occured to you that you would be wasting even more money by buying the camera that you didn't need?
Was the accomplice a complete fake or would it be possible for an ordinary customer to be in the same situation as him?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 2:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do we need to know what exactly those big expensive goods are? not really: they are electrical items like TVs, video players, microwaves, camcorders, that sort of thing

So you thought that if you bought the camera, you would be able to purchase those goods at very low prices? yes, perhaps, but beware FA Then it occured to you that you would be wasting even more money by buying the camera that you didn't need? yes! not "even more", as I didn't buy anything ... but I did realise that I might be wasting my money, and I certainly didn't need a camera.

Was the accomplice a complete fake or would it be possible for an ordinary customer to be in the same situation as him? He was a complete and utter fake, I am afraid
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 3:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The FA: that they would be at low prices? that this was a consequence of you buying the camera?

Do we have almost everything? Which bits are left?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 3:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The FA: that they would be at low prices? that this was a consequence of you buying the camera? neither, really

Do we have almost everything? you're SO close but you need two more details, including a sideways step .... then everything needs shuffling into a logical order. Hopefully it will then all make sense.

Which bits are left? You still need to work out:

1. What was peculiar about the way the goods were sold? HINT: I was tempted to buy a camera, but didn't need one and didn't envisage a use for one

2. Something that was said or implied in the sales pitch
Sam Greene (Pandora)
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 12:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was a specific or special claim made about the camera? for example had a feature which other cameras didn't have? Were customers told they would benefit in some way if they purchased this camera? did the seler claim to donate some of his takings to a charity? or did he claim he did something with his takings?
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 7:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he imply something about himself? hint at a sad past? Did he say he used to be a convict and was now turning over a new leaf by making a good, honest living?
Did he imply something about his products?
Did he imply something about the customers? (eg "Any intelligent person would see that this is a fantastic deal bla bla bla.."?)

The more you buy, the less you pay? (relatively)
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 12:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was a specific or special claim made about the camera? for example had a feature which other cameras didn't have? Were customers told they would benefit in some way if they purchased this camera? did the seler claim to donate some of his takings to a charity? or did he claim he did something with his takings? no to all, I'm afraid: it's actually much simpler than any of these
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 12:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he imply something about himself? hint at a sad past? Did he say he used to be a convict and was now turning over a new leaf by making a good, honest living? none of these

Did he imply something about his products? YES



Did he imply something about the customers? (eg "Any intelligent person would see that this is a fantastic deal bla bla bla.."?) he may have done, but that isn't really the key thing

The more you buy, the less you pay? (relatively)
no
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 12:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

He implied that his products were rare? that they were being sold at the lowest prices in London? that they were the very latest models? but actually they weren't? Was the implication a lie?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 2:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

He implied that his products were rare? that they were being sold at the lowest prices in London? that they were the very latest models? but actually they weren't? none of these Was the implication a lie? yes: in his patter, he led customers to believe that there was something about the goods that simply wasn't true
Sam Greene (Pandora)
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 9:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

was it anything to do with a physical feature of the camera? e.g batterys? or an intangible feature? e.g they had 'X' amount of memory? Were they digital cameras?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 9:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

was it anything to do with a physical feature of the camera? e.g batterys? or an intangible feature? e.g they had 'X' amount of memory? Were they digital cameras? none of these
Sam Greene (Pandora)
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 10:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

was it something he mentioned about the camera specifically? or the goods in general?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 10:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

was it something he mentioned about the camera specifically? or the goods in general? this one
Sam Greene (Pandora)
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 10:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he say they came with some sort of warranty? Did he claim they came with a free gift? a money back garantee? anything along these lines?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 10:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he say they came with some sort of warranty? Did he claim they came with a free gift? a money back garantee? anything along these lines? Nope! Some of them came with a warranty but it's not relevant I'm afraid.
Sam Greene (Pandora)
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 10:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he claim that customers would benefit in some way if they purchased something?
Was it anything to do with the way the goods worked? looked? their origin? how they were made? was there a difference between the item he was sales pitching and the actual item customers got?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 10:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he claim that customers would benefit in some way if they purchased something?
Was it anything to do with the way the goods worked? looked? their origin? this one how they were made? was there a difference between the item he was sales pitching and the actual item customers got?

no to rest
Sam Greene (Pandora)
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 10:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he claim they were made in a specific country? by ceratin people? did he claim they were purchased legitimately? when perhaps they were not? Did he claim they came from a well known store?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 11:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he claim they were made in a specific country? no by ceratin people? no did he claim they were purchased legitimately? no! when perhaps they were not? no ... in fact they almost certainly were, but explore Did he claim they came from a well known store? no
Sam Greene (Pandora)
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 11:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the make/model relevant?
Kitral Solane (Solane)
Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 4:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he claim they were stolen? Purchased illegitimately?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 10:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the make/model relevant? no
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 10:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he claim they were stolen? YES! This is certainly the implication of his sales-pitch Purchased illegitimately?

Only one step to go and it should all slot into place
Sam Greene (Pandora)
Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 10:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he claim they were stolen by him? for him? by someone else? stolen from somewhere in particluar?stoel as it out-and-out robbed without being paid for? or stoel in a sense that they were 'rescued' i.e. from being dumped?

Did he claim that customers would be helping him out to get rid of them if they bought from him? Did he try and make customers feel pity towards him?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 10:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he claim they were stolen by him? for him? by someone else? stolen from somewhere in particluar?stoel as it out-and-out robbed without being paid for? or stoel in a sense that they were 'rescued' i.e. from being dumped? None of these: it's simply that he led customers to believe that they were stolen goods: in fact he is a legal trader, preying on the greed and stupidity of the customers ... the question is how exactly he manages to scam them

Did he claim that customers would be helping him out to get rid of them if they bought from him? Did he try and make customers feel pity towards him? neither of these
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 1:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he say they were stolen from a famous person/place? Did he say that because they were stolen, he could afford to sell them at prices that were much lower than what the cost price would have been if they'd been bought legitimately?
Christiane Scharf (0815)
Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 1:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he claim that the police (or other organisation) had confiscated these goods? because they were stolen? smuggled?, but the original owners could not be found? so that they're now doing a (charity?) sale? Anything along those lines?
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 12:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ah. Does he imply that because his goods "fell off the truck" he's selling them for much much less than they're worth? but in fact they're cheap goods to begin with, and he's selling them for more than they're really worth?
Kitral Solane (Solane)
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 2:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does he imply thet there is a chance of the cudtomers getting lucky if they buy the cameras? Like they might have important picures on them?
Thinking of this Dilbert comic strip where a used car salesman says a famous dimond theif previously ovned a car, his stolen diamonds were never recovered, and that the car handles slowly/poorly like there were were weights in the doors.
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 10:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jackie:

Did he say they were stolen from a famous person/place? no Did he say that because they were stolen, he could afford to sell them at prices that were much lower than what the cost price would have been if they'd been bought legitimately? yes, this is what he leads people to believe

Christiane:

Did he claim that the police (or other organisation) had confiscated these goods? because they were stolen? smuggled?, but the original owners could not be found? so that they're now doing a (charity?) sale? Anything along those lines? none of those

Rabrab:

Ah. Does he imply that because his goods "fell off the truck" he's selling them for much much less than they're worth? but in fact they're cheap goods to begin with, and he's selling them for more than they're really worth? YES! Exactly! There is still one crucial element to find out. After all, if I said "How about this stolen TV at five hundred pounds" you'd still know roughly what it was worth and refuse to buy it

Solane:

Does he imply thet there is a chance of the cudtomers getting lucky if they buy the cameras? Like they might have important picures on them?
Thinking of this Dilbert comic strip where a used car salesman says a famous dimond theif previously ovned a car, his stolen diamonds were never recovered, and that the car handles slowly/poorly like there were were weights in the doors.

no, but that would make a great lateral puzzle
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 10:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is this where the umbrella comes in? The umbrella is the example? So people think, if he can afford to sell an umbrella at 10p, these other goods too must be worth a lot more than what he's selling them at?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 10:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is this where the umbrella comes in? The umbrella is the example? So people think, if he can afford to sell an umbrella at 10p, these other goods too must be worth a lot more than what he's selling them at? YES! And so .....
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 10:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So he makes a huge profit on his other goods, which compensates for the loss made on the umbrellas, yes? And you brilliantly figured out the situation, decided not to the buy the camera, but saved the umbrella for a rainy day! :-) Is that all?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 10:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So he makes a huge profit on his other goods, which compensates for the loss made on the umbrellas, yes?
yes! And you brilliantly figured out the situation, decided not to the buy the camera, but saved the umbrella for a rainy day! :-) Is that all? No, but SO close: I didn't buy an umbrella on the first occasion even though I had a chance to buy one for 10p. I only knew the game on my second visit, when I bought the umbrella for 10p. There is a very good reason why I didn't buy the umbrella the first time, and a very good reason why I almost bought the camera that I did not want or need. Solve this and you've cracked it :-)
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 10:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the reasons for your wanting the camera but not the umbrella the same? When you decided not to buy the camera, you'd already figured out the game, right?
Did you think at first that a 10p umbrella must be rubbish?
Since he claimed that the products were worth a lot more than what he was selling them for, did you aim to make a profit on the camera somehow? By selling on ebay etc?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 10:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the reasons for your wanting the camera but not the umbrella the same? related: also, I didn't really want a camera When you decided not to buy the camera, you'd already figured out the game, right? yope: I was certainly a bit suspicious
Did you think at first that a 10p umbrella must be rubbish? no: slight FA here
Since he claimed that the products were worth a lot more than what he was selling them for, did you aim to make a profit on the camera somehow? By selling on ebay etc? no
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 10:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The FA: was the umbrella not, to your knowledge, being sold for 10p at first?
Was this why you weren't tempted to buy it?
If you had given in to the temptation to buy the camera, would you still have achieved what you set out to achieve if you chucked the camera into the bin immediately after buying it? Was the purpose of your buying the camera just to spend the money?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 11:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The FA: was the umbrella not, to your knowledge, being sold for 10p at first? Correct-ish but hard to answer: could you rephrase it?

Was this why you weren't tempted to buy it? again ...

If you had given in to the temptation to buy the camera, would you still have achieved what you set out to achieve if you chucked the camera into the bin immediately after buying it? no, I would simply have made an even bigger doofus of myself

Was the purpose of your buying the camera just to spend the money? no
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 11:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were you not informed by the seller that the umbrellas were going at 10p? Did the seller say/imply that they cost more?
Was your desire to buy the camera a rational plan? Did the camera cost a lot more at first, and when he suddenly pushed the price down, did you just lose your head for a moment?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 11:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were you not informed by the seller that the umbrellas were going at 10p? yope: explore this Did the seller say/imply that they cost more? no
Was your desire to buy the camera a rational plan? no Did the camera cost a lot more at first, and when he suddenly pushed the price down, did you just lose your head for a moment? Not this: I certainly had a brief temptation to buy, but there was no change in the asking price. The answer is MUCH simpler than any of these.
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 11:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

He said that the umbrella could cost 10p, but hinted you should buy something else before he would be willing to sell it to you?
Did you just want to buy it for the pleasure of having got a good bargain?
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 11:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh "it" refers to the camera by the way, not the umbrella
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 11:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

the "it" in the second line, that is
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 1:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

He said that the umbrella could cost 10p, but hinted you should buy something else before he would be willing to sell it to you? no: no conditions attached, just an unusual circumstance

Did you just want to buy it for the pleasure of having got a good bargain? yes, for the brief moment of temptation, I suppose that I just wanted the pleasure of the bargain: I certainly didn't want a camera, as I am a very bad photographer :-)
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 1:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was this unusual circumstance also present the second time round, when you did buy the umbrella?
Did you not want the umbrella the first time just for the simple reason that you didn't particularly need one at that moment, and that you already had one at home?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 1:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was this unusual circumstance also present the second time round, when you did buy the umbrella? yes
Did you not want the umbrella the first time just for the simple reason that you didn't particularly need one at that moment, and that you already had one at home? no: it wasn't raining, but that was not the main reason for not buying one

The crux of the puzzle is this: umbrellas were being sold at 10p. They were worth about fifty times this amount. I wanted and needed one. Cameras were being sold at over fifty pounds, and were worth about half this amount. I didn't want or need one. Yet I didn't buy an umbrella (on the first visit), but ALMOST bought the camera in a moment of temptation. :-)
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 1:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did you have 10p in loose change on the first visit? Did the seller only accept 10p exactly for the umbrella? Did you then want to buy the camera not only for what was thought to be a good bargain, but also to get a 10p coin which could be used to pay for the umbrella?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 2:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did you have 10p in loose change on the first visit? Did the seller only accept 10p exactly for the umbrella? Did you then want to buy the camera not only for what was thought to be a good bargain, but also to get a 10p coin which could be used to pay for the umbrella? none of these :-)
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 3:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Haha I thought I was being clever by latching on to the "loose change" in the puzzle statement. Oh well. :-)
Did the seller announce the price of the umbrellas? Did you not buy an umbrella because you didn't want to, or because you couldn't? Is the plant relevant here?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 4:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Haha I thought I was being clever by latching on to the "loose change" in the puzzle statement. Oh well. :-) sorry, that was a red herring I'm afraid
Did the seller announce the price of the umbrellas? yope! Did you not buy an umbrella because you didn't want to more this one, or because you couldn't? Is the plant relevant here? the plant does not have any relation to the umbrella and camera transactions, but he pretends to buy other goods in between the umbrella and camera transactions, and this is relevant to the sneaky game that is being played out
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Friday, July 21, 2006 - 7:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the seller announce that the umbrellas were "cheap"? Did he only say 10p privately to a group of customers who seemed to be expressing interest?
Plant--did the seller want to show that the plant was buying goods at very low prices? Or was the seller pretending to sell the plant goods at high prices so that customers would think that their own case was an exception, and that they were getting a better deal than everyone else?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Friday, July 21, 2006 - 11:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the seller announce that the umbrellas were "cheap"? no: he named the price but .... if it helps, you might want to work out what the seller actually said

Did he only say 10p privately to a group of customers who seemed to be expressing interest? no

Plant--did the seller want to show that the plant was buying goods at very low prices? yes

Or was the seller pretending to sell the plant goods at high prices so that customers would think that their own case was an exception, and that they were getting a better deal than everyone else? nothing as clever as this: the plant got a very good deal indeed, and so the other customers wanted a slice of the action
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Friday, July 21, 2006 - 12:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do we need to find out what deal the plant got exactly? Did he buy a few "last pieces" at extremely low prices, so other customers couldn't buy what he had "bought", but led them to believe that all the other goods were also being sold for a fraction of what they were worth?

During your first visit, if I went up to any other customer and asked him if the umbrellas were 10p, would he say "yope" too? If I asked him again just as he was leaving, would his answer still be yope or would it be a yes?
What if I asked the seller himself if his umbrellas cost 10p--would he say "yes"?
Was his speech vague? Did he at any point explicitly say, "You can get these umbrellas at only 10p!"? Did he say it in a joking manner? Did the customers just laugh it off? Did you believe him when he said they were 10p?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Friday, July 21, 2006 - 1:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do we need to find out what deal the plant got exactly? not exactly, no: he got a lovely selection of electrical goods at silly prices Did he buy a few "last pieces" at extremely low prices, so other customers couldn't buy what he had "bought", but led them to believe that all the other goods were also being sold for a fraction of what they were worth? yes, this is close-ish

During your first visit, if I went up to any other customer and asked him if the umbrellas were 10p, would he say "yope" too? it depends when you asked him: at the start of the proceedings he would probably be bemused If I asked him again just as he was leaving, would his answer still be yope or would it be a yes? it would be a yes, assuming he stayed to the end of the sale

What if I asked the seller himself if his umbrellas cost 10p--would he say "yes"? again, depends when you asked him: at the start of the sale he might say "no" but he's more likely to say something else

Was his speech vague? hmmmm, you could say that his sales pitch omitted a fairly relevant detail Did he at any point explicitly say, "You can get these umbrellas at only 10p!"? NO Did he say it in a joking manner? he didn't say it as you have phrased it Did the customers just laugh it off? ditto Did you believe him when he said they were 10p? yopish again

Only one detail to find before the spoyler, but it happens to be the one VERY crucial detail that makes sense of everything. I keep expecting you to crack it. :-)
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Friday, July 21, 2006 - 2:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he say, "I only make a profit of 10p on each umbrella I sell!"? And this was before he implied that these goods were supposedly stolen, so the customers didn't actually think that the cost price was 0, and the selling price reallly 10p?
By the way, just to be sure-- is the crucial detail you mentioned the speech and implications regarding the umbrellas, or is there something else?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Friday, July 21, 2006 - 2:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he say, "I only make a profit of 10p on each umbrella I sell!"? And this was before he implied that these goods were supposedly stolen, so the customers didn't actually think that the cost price was 0, and the selling price reallly 10p?
no: something MUCH simpler than this

By the way, just to be sure-- is the crucial detail you mentioned the speech and implications regarding the umbrellas, or is there something else? yes, but it applies to all the goods he sells: he sells them under certain unusual terms of sale, for want of a better phrase
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Friday, July 21, 2006 - 3:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A guarantee that they won't grass to the police? Haha. He didn't threaten the customers in any way, did he?
Did he imply right from the beginning that the goods had been stolen? or did he pretend to keep up an appearance of legality?
Was it just a vague "prices as low as 10p" kind of thing? Did he talk about the umbrella specifically?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Friday, July 21, 2006 - 4:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A guarantee that they won't grass to the police? Haha. He didn't threaten the customers in any way, did he? no
Did he imply right from the beginning that the goods had been stolen? yes or did he pretend to keep up an appearance of legality? no
Was it just a vague "prices as low as 10p" kind of thing? no, it was a sale at this exact price Did he talk about the umbrella specifically? NO!!!
SmarterBrother (Mycroft)
Posted on Friday, July 21, 2006 - 4:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is his accent or manner of speech as important as what he said?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Friday, July 21, 2006 - 4:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is his accent or manner of speech as important as what he said? no
Christiane Scharf (0815)
Posted on Friday, July 21, 2006 - 4:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is there some kind of lottery? Let's say the seller shows you cards wih the prices of each product, but they are upside down so that you cannot see the price until you decided to buy the item. The plant then picks a few products with exceptionally good bargains. Does this make sense? Is it sth along those lines?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Friday, July 21, 2006 - 4:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is there some kind of lottery? not really, except perhaps in a metaphorical sense

Let's say the seller shows you cards wih the prices of each product, but they are upside down so that you cannot see the price until you decided to buy the item. The plant then picks a few products with exceptionally good bargains. Does this make sense? Is it sth along those lines? Yes it makes sense, and it's in the right forest, but the real thing is MUCH simpler than that, and the buyers are all aware of the price they are paying
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Saturday, July 22, 2006 - 6:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he say that he was selling something at 10p? Did the customers have to guess? So only those who stayed till the end of the sale would know it was the umbrellas?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Saturday, July 22, 2006 - 11:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he say that he was selling something at 10p? Did the customers have to guess? So only those who stayed till the end of the sale would know it was the umbrellas? YES! In fact, everything is sold "blind": it's a mystery sale. It must be time for the


*****SPOILER*****

It's a progressive "blind" sale of household goods. These sales were quite common in London in the late 80s/early 90s, though I haven't seen one for ages. This is exactly how I observed it.

A salesman pitches a stall outside a disused shop premises, with some quality goods at really low prices: a games console for 5 pounds, a camcorder for 50, and so on. It's the busiest shopping street in London, so he has no difficulty attracting a crowd of curious shoppers with his Cockney banter. He doesn't sell them these goods yet, though: he waits till he has 30-40 people assembled and then invites them into the saleroom on the pretext of hiding from the police.

Then the sale starts. He brings out a big cardboard box. "Who'll give me 10p for the mystery item I have in this box"? Strangely enough, people are sceptical at this stage. Two or three hands go up, and those people get an umbrella, worth 5 pounds or so. Then he raises the stakes: "Who'll give me a pound for what's in this box?". Sure enough, two or three lucky punters get a clock radio (or whatever). And so on up to 20 pounds, at which point he sells the camcorder, games console, video recorder and other goodies to a VERY lucky man at the back: he is a plant, of course.

By this time, most of the punters are convinced that the goods are stolen. They've seen other customers get sensational deals; they have their minds set on the attractive goods they saw outside; after three or four rounds of selling they now trust the salesman. Now the sting: "Who'll give me sixty pounds for what's in the box"? Crazy though it seems, at least half a dozen suckers go for it, and I must admit I was VERY tempted and almost bought what turned out to be a camera. (I later saw one for 30 pounds in a normal shop.)

This continues with even more overpriced goods that compensate the seller for the small losses in the earlier rounds: a hundred-pound TV for two hundred, and so on, till the end of the sale. Amazingly, they manage to sell on rubbishy goods at double their value, to people who didn't even want them in the first place.

What about the quality goods from the stall outside? Well, they are never sold at all: they're just a bait. They are returned by the plant and the cycle begins again. If it sounds too good to be true, it usually is.

Of course, on my second visit, I knew the drill: I saw the sale about to start. I ducked inside the saleroom, hoping that the 10p mystery item would be a brolly, as before. Indeed it was: I bought it and left.

Thanks to Jackie and everyone for sticking with this one: I never knew it would turn out to be such a shaggy-dog epic.

:-)
Jackie Raymond (Jumpingjack)
Posted on Saturday, July 22, 2006 - 2:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Nice one!
Now why don't you go back there and buy everything the plant buys! :-)
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Saturday, July 22, 2006 - 2:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Aaaah .... because there is only one batch of those, you see. Other people raise their hands, think they've missed out, and jump in at the next chance.

Yes, you'd think that customers would spot this discrepancy, but they're too greed-crazed and daft to pause and work out the catch. By the way, I recall telling everybody on the second visit that it was a scam. So I might not have been very welcome :-)
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 6:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ah, yes. Auction-house fever; very contagious, only rarely fatal.

Nice puzzle, Woodworm. Very nice.

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