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Nimue (Nimue)
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Post Number: 2284
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Posted on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 8:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A very conservative Catholic university once considered adopting a policy of expelling any unmarried student who engaged in sexual intercourse. Leaving aside the question of how the school would discover the miscreants, the administration decided against the policy for an interesting & surprising reason. What was it??
Logician (Logician)
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Posted on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 8:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the reason theological in nature?

Is it conceivable that an evangelical University considering a similar policy might reject it for the same reason?
Huntinggirl (Huntinggirl)
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Posted on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 8:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was/is the university all male? All female? Relevant?

Relevant that this policy might encourage the students to marry? And live off-campus? And not go to school anymore?

Era relevant?
Country relevant?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 8:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Logician (Logician)
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Posted on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 8:43 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Is the reason theological in nature? yope

Is it conceivable that an evangelical University considering a similar policy might reject it for the same reason? yes
Huntinggirl (Huntinggirl)
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Posted on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 8:48 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Was/is the university all male? no but irrel All female? ditto Relevant? no

Relevant that this policy might encourage the students to marry? no And live off-campus? no And not go to school anymore? no

Era relevant? yesishCountry relevant? no
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 8:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did someone point out a flaw in the argument? Like "Adam and Eve weren't married...and they populated the entire planet"?
Was it anything like they would have had to expel so many people, there would be no college left?
Anything to do with the administrators themselves (eg they were worried one of them might break the rule)?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 9:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 8:57 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Did someone point out a flaw in the argument? yope Like "Adam and Eve weren't married...and they populated the entire planet"? not that
Was it anything like they would have had to expel so many people, there would be no college left? no
Anything to do with the administrators themselves (eg they were worried one of them might break the rule)? no
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 9:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was it that, in expelling them, they (the administrators) would be committing a sin themselves? Or that exposing the "miscreants" would leave the administrators open to charges of voyeurism, or such?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 9:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 9:25 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Was it that, in expelling them, they (the administrators) would be committing a sin themselves? no Or that exposing the "miscreants" would leave the administrators open to charges of voyeurism, or such? no
Foulglory (Foulglory)
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Posted on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 5:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was it during the:
21st Century
20th
19th
18th
Before?

Maybe they could just get married?
Bentarm (Bentarm)
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Posted on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 1:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they decide on a different punishment for students caught having extra-marital intercourse? Decide that it wasn't the school's business to punish them at all? Decide that it was actually ok?
After the decision was made, would it have been possible to be a student at the school and be openly in a sexual relationship with someone to whom you weren't married?
Could an Islamic school have made the same decision for the same reason?
Emeraldink (Emeraldink)
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Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 8:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the argument against punishment that they should help the sinners, not to drive them away from church?
Huntinggirl (Huntinggirl)
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Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 11:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The yopeishly theological reason:
relates to
-The Bible
-Ideas of how Christians should behave towards one another
-General "rules" regarding morals
-Christian tradition (that is to say, other Christian writings or thinkings than the Bible)

Is there anything that should be discovered regarding the students attending this university? They were all munks or nuns so did not need the anti-sex regulation?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 7:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Foulglory (Foulglory)
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Posted on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 5:40 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Was it during the:
21st Century
20th
19th
18th
Before?

Maybe they could just get married?
Bentarm (Bentarm)
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Posted on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 1:07 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Did they decide on a different punishment for students caught having extra-marital intercourse? irrel Decide that it wasn't the school's business to punish them at all? irrel Decide that it was actually ok? no
After the decision was made, would it have been possible to be a student at the school and be openly in a sexual relationship with someone to whom you weren't married? I don't know--maybe there was some milder sort of sanction
Could an Islamic school have made the same decision for the same reason? Not exactly the same reason. A similar one? I don't know enough about Islam to answer that
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 7:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Username: Emeraldink

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Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 8:35 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Was the argument against punishment that they should help the sinners, not to drive them away from church? no
Huntinggirl (Huntinggirl)
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The yopeishly theological reason:
relates to
-The Bible
-Ideas of how Christians should behave towards one another
-General "rules" regarding morals
-Christian tradition (that is to say, other Christian writings or thinkings than the Bible) none of the above

Is there anything that should be discovered regarding the students attending this university? no They were all munks or nuns so did not need the anti-sex regulation? no
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 7:41 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Foulglory (Foulglory)
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Posted on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 5:40 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Was it during the:
21st Century
20th
19th
18th
Before? on fact, it was the 20th but any of these is possible

Maybe they could just get married? irrel
Bentarm (Bentarm)
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Kdoc (Kdoc)
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Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 9:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

did the administration decide that the rule would produce unwanted effects? for them? for the students? did they think it would somehow bring the college into disrepute? make them look ridiculous? make them look bad in some way?

did they decide it would be ineffective in producing the result they wanted? did they think the rule might be illegal for some reason? immoral? cost them money in some way? be unworkable?

would they still have decided against the policy if the sanction had been suspension rather than expulsion? if the misdemeanour had been something else, say drinking alcohol underage?

was there decision based on the Constitution in some way?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 11:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kdoc (Kdoc)
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Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 9:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
did the administration decide that the rule would produce unwanted effects? yope for them? yopefor the students? yope did they think it would somehow bring the college into disrepute? yope make them look ridiculous? yope make them look bad in some way? yope

did they decide it would be ineffective in producing the result they wanted? yope did they think the rule might be illegal for some reason? no immoral? noish cost them money in some way? no be unworkable? no

would they still have decided against the policy if the sanction had been suspension rather than expulsion? possibly if the misdemeanour had been something else, say drinking alcohol underage? yes

was there decision based on the Constitution in some way? no
Huntinggirl (Huntinggirl)
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Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 7:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So is it the punishment the College authorities decided to change, rather than the rule itself?

If so, is it relevant that if expelled, the students would be part of the outside world and out-of-reach for the good influence of a Catholic surrounding?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 8:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Huntinggirl (Huntinggirl)
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Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 7:05 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
So is it the punishment the College authorities decided to change, rather than the rule itself? I think so

If so, is it relevant that if expelled, the students would be part of the outside world and out-of-reach for the good influence of a Catholic surrounding? no
Huntinggirl (Huntinggirl)
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Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 8:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You say above that the era is yesishly relevant, but (also above but lower) that "it could be any of these" - that is 18th to the 21st century. Should we explore this seemingly contradiction?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 9:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Huntinggirl (Huntinggirl)
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Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 8:57 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
You say above that the era is yesishly relevant, but (also above but lower) that "it could be any of these" - that is 18th to the 21st century. Should we explore this seemingly contradiction? Where's the contradiction? The point is that there are some earlier eras that may be precluded (although I'm not sure)
Dlcygnet (Dlcygnet)
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Posted on Sunday, May 06, 2007 - 8:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Unmarried women are more likely to use birth control/condoms if they engage in such activity & it's viewed as "illegal"? So they decided not to have the rule in place to keep their students from using birth control (also a no no in the Catholic community)? After all, the only real way to catch somebody is either in the act or after they get pregnant.... anything else is heresay.
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Sunday, May 06, 2007 - 8:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dlcygnet (Dlcygnet)
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Unmarried women are more likely to use birth control/condoms if they engage in such activity & it's viewed as "illegal"?irrel So they decided not to have the rule in place to keep their students from using birth control (also a no no in the Catholic community)?\no} After all, the only real way to catch somebody is either in the act or after they get pregnant.... anything else is heresay. That's not foolproof either--what if the woman was raped??
~damia~ (~damia~)
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Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 2:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

is birth control relevant? or abortion?
Alex319 (Alex319)
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Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 7:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the fact that it's Catholic relevant? Would this work if it was a different denomination of Christianity (e.g. Protestant)? Would it work if it was a non-Christian religion?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 7:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

~damia~ (~damia~)
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is birth control relevant? no or abortion? no
Alex319 (Alex319)
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Is the fact that it's Catholic relevant? yesWould this work if it was a different denomination of Christianity (e.g. Protestant)? Less well if at all Would it work if it was a non-Christian religion? no
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 8:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were they worried that the rule would encourage the students to do something worse? That the rule would make students want to rebel?
Was it a gesture of trust towards the students, that they didn't believe any of them would do such a thing?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 8:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Enjay (Enjay)
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Were they worried that the rule would encourage the students to do something worse? No. I think sex outside of marriage is a mortal sin in Catholicism. So what could be worse by that standard??} That the rule would make students want to rebel? no
Was it a gesture of trust towards the students, that they didn't believe any of them would do such a thing?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 8:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was it a gesture of trust towards the students, that they didn't believe any of them would do such a thing? no
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 11:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they simply hope that God would punish the sinners, and then they could bask in their own (self-)righteousness? Or was there some obscure doctrinal reason why a seminary should not punish sinners, because in so doing they would be playing God?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Did they simply hope that God would punish the sinners, and then they could bask in their own (self-)righteousness? no Or was there some obscure doctrinal reason why a seminary should not punish sinners, because in so doing they would be playing God? no. Anyway, it'sd a university, not a senminary
Alex319 (Alex319)
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Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 2:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You said that it would work with Catholicism but not (as well) with other denominations of Christianity. Is this because...

- Another denomination would be less likely to be considering an "expel anyone who is caught having sex before marriage" rule in the first place?
- Another denomination would be less likely to be subject to the particular reason for rejecting such a rule that we are talking about?

Is the reason for the above because:

- the denomination's different beliefs regarding...
... the nature of God?
... some aspects of history?
... acceptable rules of behavior?
... acceptable punishments for bad behavior?
- the denomination's history?
- the popularity of the denomination?
- the status of the denomination within society?

Could this have happened before the Reformation?

Is the Reformation relevant in any way?

Are indulgences relevant in any way?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Alex319 (Alex319)
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Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 2:15 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
You said that it would work with Catholicism but not (as well) with other denominations of Christianity. Is this because...

- Another denomination would be less likely to be considering an "expel anyone who is caught having sex before marriage" rule in the first place? no
- Another denomination would be less likely to be subject to the particular reason for rejecting such a rule that we are talking about? yes

Is the reason for the above because:

- the denomination's different beliefs regarding...
... the nature of God? no
... some aspects of history? yesish
... acceptable rules of behavior?
... acceptable punishments for bad behavior? no
- the denomination's history? yesish
- the popularity of the denomination? no
- the status of the denomination within society? no

Could this have happened before the Reformation? yes

Is the Reformation relevant in any way? no

Are indulgences relevant in any way? no
Alex319 (Alex319)
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Posted on Saturday, May 19, 2007 - 7:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was there a particular historical event relevant?
If so, did it happen before the year (insert LTPFLPI)?

Would the reason for rejecting the rule still have been valid if the punishment was...
...a fine?
...community service?
...being restricted from going off-campus?

Is the relevant fact that by expelling students, they would be preventing the students from learning?

If they implemented this rule, would they have to also implement another rule?
Eli (Eli)
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Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 9:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does this have anything to do with the seven mortal sins (it's seven, i think???)?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 6:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Alex319 (Alex319)
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Posted on Saturday, May 19, 2007 - 7:06 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Was there a particular historical event relevant? yes
If so, did it happen before the year (insert LTPFLPI)?The school cited one such event (or series of events) that occurred in the late fourth or early fifth centuries & suggested that there were others occurring in differnt times as well. But all relevant events would be A.D., not B.C.

Would the reason for rejecting the rule still have been valid if the punishment was...
...a fine? no
...community service? no
...being restricted from going off-campus? no

Is the relevant fact that by expelling students, they would be preventing the students from learning? no

If they implemented this rule, would they have to also implement another rule? no
Eli (Eli)
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Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 9:43 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Does this have anything to do with the seven mortal sins (it's seven, i think???)? yes it is, but the puzzle isn't specifically related to this.
Alex319 (Alex319)
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Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 1:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the relevant historical event(s):

... generally considered a bad thing?
... generally considered a good thing?
... an event described in the Old Testament?
... an event described in the New Testament?
... a Papal election (or something that occurred during it)?
... a Papal decree (or other official decree)
... something somebody (who was not necessarily in an official position) said?
... someone who Catholics generally consider to be good (e.g. a saint) doing something generally considered to be bad?
... someone who Catholics generally consider to be bad doing something generally considered to be good?
... involve someone getting expelled from a university?
... involved someone getting expelled from an institution that is not a university?

If a student was expelled from the university, would that make an event similar to the event we are talking about more likely to happen? Less likely?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Username: Nimue

Post Number: 2358
Registered: 8-2001
Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 6:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Alex319 (Alex319)
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Username: Alex319

Post Number: 44
Registered: 5-2007

Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 1:58 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Was the relevant historical event(s):

... generally considered a bad thing? yope
... generally considered a good thing? yope
... an event described in the Old Testament? no
... an event described in the New Testament? no
... a Papal election (or something that occurred during it)? no
... a Papal decree (or other official decree) yope
... something somebody (who was not necessarily in an official position) said? yope
... someone who Catholics generally consider to be good (e.g. a saint) doing something generally considered to be bad? YES!!!!!! NOW IT SHOULD BE EASY TO SOLVE!!!!
... someone who Catholics generally consider to be bad doing something generally considered to be good? no
... involve someone getting expelled from a university? no
... involved someone getting expelled from an institution that is not a university? no

If a student was expelled from the university, would that make an event similar to the event we are talking about more likely to happen? N/A Less likely? N/A
Enjay (Enjay)
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Username: Enjay

Post Number: 528
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 10:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So...did someone good have unmarried sex? A saint? Or something else considered "bad"?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Username: Nimue

Post Number: 2361
Registered: 8-2001
Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 10:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Enjay (Enjay)
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Username: Enjay

Post Number: 528
Registered: 4-2007

Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 10:10 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
So...did someone good have unmarried sex?\b {yes} A saint yes Or something else considered "bad"? yes!!\
{****SPOILER*************}

When The University of Dallas, a conservative Catholic university, considered having a rule expelling students found "guilty" of having poremarital sex, someone pointed out that some of the Catholic Chruch's great saints, such as St. Augustine, originally led pretty racy lives & would have been expelled under that rule.So the university never institited the rule. Sorry it was so easy--my new one at the bottom of the page won't be (I hope).

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