[BeccaAnn] The Effects of Weightlessness Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Register | Edit Profile

Lateral Puzzles » Solved Lateral Thinking Puzzles » Solved Puzzles - September 2007 » [BeccaAnn] The Effects of Weightlessness « Previous Next »

Author Message
Beccaann (Beccaann)
New member
Username: Beccaann

Post Number: 1584
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 8:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Who'd guess it would create
a fierce, prolonged debate?
Crazypalpig (Crazypalpig)
New member
Username: Crazypalpig

Post Number: 1426
Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 9:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Another weightless puzzle!

I don't know who'd guess
but your sentence is a mess!

Is the debate on the LTPF? it: some sort of issue?
Beccaann (Beccaann)
New member
Username: Beccaann

Post Number: 1585
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 10:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Another weightless puzzle! Indeed!

I don't know who'd guess
but your sentence is a mess!

A mess? I disagree!
I'ts correct grammatically!




Is the debate on the LTPF?no it: some sort of issue?noish
Crazypalpig (Crazypalpig)
New member
Username: Crazypalpig

Post Number: 1427
Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 12:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I meant your statement is giving me no clue
So, roses are red, and violets are blue
makes more sense to me then your puzzle clue!

A real event? In USA? was it some sort of silly thing the law did, like sueing not a senator who accepted a bribe, but the bribe itself??
Sixtyeight (Sixtyeight)
New member
Username: Sixtyeight

Post Number: 477
Registered: 6-2007
Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 12:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

did a debate about poetry ensue?
a debate having little to do with poetry?
a debate about a poet? some trivia?
Beccaann (Beccaann)
New member
Username: Beccaann

Post Number: 1586
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 2:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I meant your statement is giving me no clue
So, roses are red, and violets are blue
makes more sense to me then your puzzle clue!

Ah, I see.

A real event?yes In USA?yes, but irrel was it some sort of silly thing the law did, like sueing not a senator who accepted a bribe, but the bribe itself??no, nothing like this

did a debate about poetry ensue? yesish
a debate having little to do with poetry? no
a debate about a poet?yesish some trivia?yope
Booklover (Booklover)
New member
Username: Booklover

Post Number: 625
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 3:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

any poets relevant?
male?
female?
era relevant?: before 17th cent?
17? 18th? 19th? 20th? 21st?

anything to do with a piece of poetry? type of poetry? subject of a piece?

poet laureates relevant? organizations relevant? events? awards?
Beccaann (Beccaann)
New member
Username: Beccaann

Post Number: 1587
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 3:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

any poets relevant? yes
male? yes
female? I'd love to say yes, but alas, no is the better answer.
era relevant?yesish: before 17th cent?
17? 18th? 19th?this, if I'm not mistaken 20th? 21st?

anything to do with a piece of poetry?yes type of poetry?yes subject of a piece?yope

poet laureates relevant? organizations relevant? events? awards? none of these
Booklover (Booklover)
New member
Username: Booklover

Post Number: 626
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 4:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

was the poet born in the u.s.? england?
did the poet live in the u.s.? england?
was the poet born in the 18th century? 19th century?
did the poet die in the 19th century? 20th century?


was the poet well-known?

did the subject of the poetry have to do with an event? in the u.s.? england?

did the poem have to do with nature?

any of these poets relevant?
longfellow?
edward r. sill?
emerson?
tennyson?
john mccrae?
whitman?
oliver wendell holmes?
john burroughs?
poe?
thomas macaulay?
john greenleaf whittier?
robert browning?
sir walter scott?
phillip brooks?
eugene field?
wordsworth?
james russell lowell?
shelley?
sandburg?
joyce kilmer?
r.l. stevenson?
eugene field?
sidney lanier?
alfred noyes?
josiah holland?
henry holcolb bennett?
william watson?
frank l. stanton?
george washington doane?
sir walter scott?
keats?
robert frost?
william cullen bryant?
edgar a. guest?
clement clarke moore?
Beccaann (Beccaann)
New member
Username: Beccaann

Post Number: 1588
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 4:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

was the poet born in the u.s.?no england?yes
did the poet live in the u.s.?no england?yes
was the poet born in the 18th century?no 19th century?yes
did the poet die in the 19th century?yes 20th century? no


was the poet well-known?yes

did the subject of the poetry have to do with an event?yope in the u.s.?no england?no

did the poem have to do with nature? no

any of these poets relevant?
longfellow?
edward r. sill?
emerson?
tennyson?
john mccrae?
whitman?
oliver wendell holmes?
john burroughs?
poe?
thomas macaulay?
john greenleaf whittier?
robert browning?
sir walter scott?
phillip brooks?
eugene field?
wordsworth?
james russell lowell?
shelley?
sandburg?
joyce kilmer?
r.l. stevenson?
eugene field?
sidney lanier?
alfred noyes?
josiah holland?
henry holcolb bennett?
william watson?
frank l. stanton?
george washington doane?
sir walter scott?
keats?
robert frost?
william cullen bryant?
edgar a. guest?
clement clarke moore?
none of these, but an impressive list nonetheless.
Woubit (Woubit)
Moderator
Username: Woubit

Post Number: 86
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 1:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That is a fairly weighty list of poets. Let's try some lighter ones, starting with:

Edward Lear?
Lewis Carroll?
Beccaann (Beccaann)
New member
Username: Beccaann

Post Number: 1592
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 1:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That is a fairly weighty list of poets. Let's try some lighter ones, starting with:

Edward Lear?
Lewis Carroll?yes
Bodo (Bodo)
New member
Username: Bodo

Post Number: 2041
Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 5:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

One of Lewis Carroll's works created a fierce prolonged debate? A single pome? Or an entire book? A series of books?
Beccaann (Beccaann)
New member
Username: Beccaann

Post Number: 1593
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 7:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

One of Lewis Carroll's works created a fierce prolonged debate?yope A single pome?yes Or an entire book?no A series of books?no
Woubit (Woubit)
Moderator
Username: Woubit

Post Number: 87
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 7:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The Hunting of the Snark?
Beccaann (Beccaann)
New member
Username: Beccaann

Post Number: 1595
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 8:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The Hunting of the Snark? nope
Booklover (Booklover)
New member
Username: Booklover

Post Number: 632
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 9:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

jabberwocky?
maybe a discussion about the fact that most of the words were made up?
whether some of the made up words should be put in a dictionary?
debate on what each of the made up words meant exactly--especially since each word might mean something different (esp. visually) to different people?
Woubit (Woubit)
Moderator
Username: Woubit

Post Number: 88
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 9:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was this poem contained in one of Carroll's prose works? Or was it a stand-alone poem, so to speak?
Beccaann (Beccaann)
New member
Username: Beccaann

Post Number: 1596
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 10:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

jabberwocky? yes
maybe a discussion about the fact that most of the words were made up? yope
whether some of the made up words should be put in a dictionary? yope
debate on what each of the made up words meant exactly--especially since each word might mean something different (esp. visually) to different people? no

Was this poem contained in one of Carroll's prose works? yes, see above Or was it a stand-alone poem, so to speak? no
Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member
Username: Woodworm

Post Number: 1020
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 12:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does this concern a translation of Jaberwocky?

Is the etymology of the words relevant?

Are we looking for a specific line or stanza, or does the debate apply to the whole poem?

Is it a debate among scholars? A debate on authenticity? A debate about pronunciation? (eg. Carroll wanted 'gyre' to be pronounced with a hard 'g'). Or a squabble between children, perhaps?

Is the Palin/Gilliam film relevant at all?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member
Username: Woodworm

Post Number: 1021
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 12:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oops: I misspelled Jabberwocky! Which made me wonder: is it a debate about spelling?
Rabrab (Rabrab)
New member
Username: Rabrab

Post Number: 1608
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 5:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If it was about a translation of Jabberwocky, was the debate taking place in France? Was it over the pollution of the French language necessary to do the translation?

Le Jaseroque

Il brilgue: les tôves lubricilleux
Se gyrent en vrillant dans le guave,
Enmîmés sont les gougebosqueux,
Et le mômerade horsgrave.

Garde-toi du Jaseroque, mon fils!
La gueule qui mord; la griffe qui prend!
Garde-toi de l'oiseau Jube, évite
Le frumieux Band-à-prend.

Son glaive vorpal en mail il va-
T-à la recherche du fauve manscant;
Puis arriveé à l'arbre Té-Té,
Il y reste, réfléchissant.

Pendant qu'il pense, tout uffusé
Le Jaseroque, à l'oeil flambant,
Vient siblant par le bois tullegeais,
Et burbule en venant.

Un deux, un deux, par le milieu,
Le glaive vorpal fait pat-à-pan!
La bête défaite, avec sa tête,
Il rentre gallomphant.

As-tu tué le Jaseroque?
Viens à mon coeur, fils rayonnais!
O jour frabbejeais! Calleau! Callai!
Il cortule dans sa joie.

Il brilgue: les tôves lubricilleux
Se gyrent en vrillant dans le guave,
Enmîmés sont les gougebosqueux,
Et le mômerade horsgrave.


Frank L. Warrin
Beccaann (Beccaann)
New member
Username: Beccaann

Post Number: 1597
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 2:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does this concern a translation of Jaberwocky?no

Is the etymology of the words relevant? yes
Are we looking for a specific line or stanza,yesish or does the debate apply to the whole poem?noish

Is it a debate among scholars?no A debate on authenticity?no A debate about pronunciation?no (eg. Carroll wanted 'gyre' to be pronounced with a hard 'g'). Or a squabble between children, perhaps?no, but closer.

Is the Palin/Gilliam film relevant at all?no

Oops: I misspelled Jabberwocky! Which made me wonder: is it a debate about spelling?no

If it was about a translation of Jabberwocky, was the debate taking place in France?no Was it over the pollution of the French language necessary to do the translation? no

Le Jaseroque

Il brilgue: les tôves lubricilleux
Se gyrent en vrillant dans le guave,
Enmîmés sont les gougebosqueux,
Et le mômerade horsgrave.

Garde-toi du Jaseroque, mon fils!
La gueule qui mord; la griffe qui prend!
Garde-toi de l'oiseau Jube, évite
Le frumieux Band- -prend.

Son glaive vorpal en mail il va-
T- la recherche du fauve manscant;
Puis arriveé l'arbre Té-Té,
Il y reste, réfléchissant.

Pendant qu'il pense, tout uffusé
Le Jaseroque, l'oeil flambant,
Vient siblant par le bois tullegeais,
Et burbule en venant.

Un deux, un deux, par le milieu,
Le glaive vorpal fait pat- -pan!
La bête défaite, avec sa tête,
Il rentre gallomphant.

As-tu tué le Jaseroque?
Viens mon coeur, fils rayonnais!
O jour frabbejeais! Calleau! Callai!
Il cortule dans sa joie.

Il brilgue: les tôves lubricilleux
Se gyrent en vrillant dans le guave,
Enmîmés sont les gougebosqueux,
Et le mômerade horsgrave.

Frank L. Warrin
I'd not seen this before. I know no French, and my pronunciation of it if I attempt to read it is terrible.
Woubit (Woubit)
Moderator
Username: Woubit

Post Number: 90
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 5:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is this debate conducted among academics? Among well-known people? Is it, so to speak, a public debate? Or a discussion involving you and people known to you?
Beccaann (Beccaann)
New member
Username: Beccaann

Post Number: 1598
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 7:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is this debate conducted among academics?no Among well-known people?no Is it, so to speak, a public debate?no Or a discussion involving you and people known to you?Yes. It was between me and my mother.
Woubit (Woubit)
Moderator
Username: Woubit

Post Number: 92
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 7:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Age and experience have taught me that between a woman and her mother, any mere man intervenes at great peril. In fear and trembling, I ask:

Does your mother esteem "Jabberwocky" less highly than you do? More highly?
Beccaann (Beccaann)
New member
Username: Beccaann

Post Number: 1601
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 1:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Age and experience have taught me that between a woman and her mother, any mere man intervenes at great peril.
Perhaps the reason why my step-father, brother, and step-brother said not a word during our disagreement!
In fear and trembling, I ask:

Does your mother esteem "Jabberwocky" less highly than you do?no More highly?no
Suido (Suido)
New member
Username: Suido

Post Number: 101
Registered: 8-2007
Posted on Saturday, September 01, 2007 - 4:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

was it an argument about the meaning of the poem? literal meanings? metaphors?

were your arguments based on personal opinions of a qualitative aspect of the poem? ie not about something that could be investigated and definitively answered, such as the number of words in the poem.
Bentarm (Bentarm)
New member
Username: Bentarm

Post Number: 1085
Registered: 6-2001
Posted on Monday, September 03, 2007 - 6:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did you disagree about the actual content of some line in the poem?
Would it have been possible to have this disagreement if you had the poem written down in front of you?
Beccaann (Beccaann)
New member
Username: Beccaann

Post Number: 1604
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 1:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

was it an argument about the meaning of the poem? literal meanings? metaphors? none of these

were your arguments based on personal opinions of a qualitative aspect of the poem?no ie not about something that could be investigated and definitively answered, such as the number of words in the poem.it could be definitively answered.

Did you disagree about the actual content of some line in the poem?no
Would it have been possible to have this disagreement if you had the poem written down in front of you?yes
Suido (Suido)
New member
Username: Suido

Post Number: 107
Registered: 8-2007
Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 8:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

etymology of jabberwocky? or of another word(s) in the poem?
Beccaann (Beccaann)
New member
Username: Beccaann

Post Number: 1607
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 9:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

etymology of jabberwocky?no or of another word(s) in the poem?yes
Suido (Suido)
New member
Username: Suido

Post Number: 109
Registered: 8-2007
Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 5:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

is it one of the nonsense words?
a noun?
an adjective?
a verb?
Beccaann (Beccaann)
New member
Username: Beccaann

Post Number: 1608
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 1:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

is it one of the nonsense words? yes
a noun? no
an adjective? no
a verb? yes
Suido (Suido)
New member
Username: Suido

Post Number: 112
Registered: 8-2007
Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 3:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

right then:
Gyre?
Gimble?
Mimsy?
Raths?
Outgrabe?
Whiffling? (my money's on this one)

Or one of the two I wouldn't quite consider nonsense:
Galumphing?
Burbling?

or is it a word I've missed?
Beccaann (Beccaann)
New member
Username: Beccaann

Post Number: 1611
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 3:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

right then:
Gyre?
Gimble?
Mimsy?
Raths?
Outgrabe?
Whiffling? (my money's on this one)

Or one of the two I wouldn't quite consider nonsense:
Galumphing?
Burbling?

or is it a word I've missed?this
Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member
Username: Woodworm

Post Number: 1025
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 9:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This only leaves chortle, surely?

I think Carroll coined this word and it entered the language as a result. Is this right? Is it a portmanteau word?

Did you diasgree with your mother as to:

whether chortle first appeared in Jabberwocky?
whether it was a portmanteau?
whether it was a real word?
or all of those?
Beccaann (Beccaann)
New member
Username: Beccaann

Post Number: 1615
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 11:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This only leaves chortle, surely? why, yes!

I think Carroll coined this word and it entered the language as a result. Is this right?this is correct Is it a portmanteau word?yes

Did you diasgree with your mother as to:

whether chortle first appeared in Jabberwocky?yes
whether it was a portmanteau?yes
whether it was a real word? yes
or all of those?yes

I think this is enough for a SPOILER......

A couple of weeks ago I was visiting my mother for the weekend and happened to be spending a considerable amount of time online trying to solve Woubit's puzzle "That a cherry was as red." At dinner one night that weekend my mom asked what it was that I was doing on the computer all day and we ended up having a discussion about weightless poetry. When I was growing up my parents always loved Jabberwocky and had it memorized. At the dinner table my mom recited the poem and I commented that I thought that "chortle" and "frabjous" were possibly my two favorite of Carroll's nonsense words. My mom argued that chortle wasn't a nonsense word, it was a real word. Seeing as we were at dinner, we had no reference material on hand, but we are both quite stubborn and each refused to let it drop.
After dinner my mom grabbed the closest dictionary. "Chortle" was indeed an entry, and my mom used this as evidence that she was correct. Unfortunately for me, the dictionary was no ordinary dictionary but our Official Scrabble Dictionary, which lists acceptable words and definitions, but, alas, no etymologies. I continued to argue that chortle might be a real word now, but that Carroll had made it up...a portmanteau. Chuckle + snort. My mom thought that I was grasping at straws and just wouldn't admit that I was wrong. So we headed downstairs to get the real dictionary, which, I'm pleased to say, defined "chortle" as "To chuckle gleefully.[Origin: b. chuckle and snort; coined by Lewis Carroll in Through the Looking-Glass (1871)] "

My mom conceded the debate, of course.

Who would have thought, though, that weightless poetry, or a lateral puzzle about weightless poetry at that, would cause us to have such a heated debate!!
Woubit (Woubit)
Moderator
Username: Woubit

Post Number: 93
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 2:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Good puzzle, Beccaann. Here, for amusement only, is a list of the words in Jabberwocky that are candidates for having been coined by Carroll. Place your bets on which ones are "real" words, in the sense of having existed before Carroll used them in the poem.

brillig
slithy
toves
gyre
gimble
wabe
mimsy
borogoves
mome
raths
outgrabe

frumious
vorpal
manxome
uffish
whiffling
tulgey
burbled

galumphing
beamish
frabjous
chortled (included to make sure you were all paying attention)
Suido (Suido)
New member
Username: Suido

Post Number: 114
Registered: 8-2007
Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 3:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

haha, I would have been on your Mothers side of the argument, having had no idea that Carroll invented it! Great puzzle.

Burbled is now commonly used to describe the sound a creek or small river would make is it not?

I'm also thinking that perhaps the song 'Galumph went the little green frog' probably took the word from this poem.

Is gyre possibly derived from gyrate?

And slithy made into an adjective from the verb slither?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member
Username: Woodworm

Post Number: 1026
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 4:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hmmm ... with the possible exception of Gyre, I'd bet that all the above were coined by Carroll, at least in the sense (for svv of 'sense') that he uses them. I have a feeling that 'mome' (as a noun meaning a jester or professional twerp) is older, and Beamish stout is surely older than Carroll, but those don't really count. 'Raths' is a much older word, which I only know from playing Scrabble. 'Toves' is not good for Scrabble. I learnt this the hard way, by trying it. :-)
Beccaann (Beccaann)
New member
Username: Beccaann

Post Number: 1618
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 7:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok, lets see.

I would say that gyre existed pre-Jabberwocky to mean to spin around like a gyroscope, which was Humpty Dumpty's definition in Carroll's writing, but Carroll also offered the definition for gyre as to scratch like a dog, so this one's on the fence.

Beamish I would say pre-dates Jabberwocky.

Mome I think means fool, and did so before Jabberwocky, although I'm not sure if this is how Carroll intended to use to word.

Frumious, vorpal, burbled, galumphing, and frabjous can all be found in today's dictionaries but I believe all were coined by Carroll, with the possible exception of burbled. I think manxome would fit this too.

brillig, slithy, toves, gimble, wabe, mimsy, borogoves, raths, outgrabe, uffish, and tulgey are all pure Lewis Carroll.
Rabrab (Rabrab)
New member
Username: Rabrab

Post Number: 1610
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 10:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think that vorpal was real before Carroll. As for the others, gyre is a variant of gyrate, but I don't believe that it was a real word, although gyrate certainly was. Raths, mome and beamish may have been words before Jabberwocky, but not in any sense similar to the way he used them, as far as I know.

Mome was a noun; Carroll used it as an adjective without changing the form and the attribute the adjective expresses is unrelated to the noun form.

Rath was a noun, but Carroll changed it from a building to an animal, so I'll call that a real word that he turned into nonsense.

Beamish I'm up in the air about.
Woubit (Woubit)
Moderator
Username: Woubit

Post Number: 99
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 4:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Rien ne va plus...

brillig is a Carrollism, defined as "four o'clock in the afternoon - the time when you begin broiling things for dinner"

slithy is a real word - a variant spelling of "sleathy", which meant slovenly or careless. As with other real words in Jabberwocky, Carroll did not use it in its original sense - he intended it as a "portmanteau word", a combination of "slimy" and "lithe".

toves is a Carrollism - "a combination of a badger, a lizard, and a corkscrew. They are very curious looking creatures which make their nests under sundials. They live on cheese."

gyre is a real word - as a verb it means to rotate, as a noun it means a rotation. It appears in another famous English poem:

Turning and turning in the widening gyre,
The falcon cannot hear the falconer.

W B Yeats, The Second Coming


As Beccaann says, Carroll wrote that it meant "to scratch like a dog", which it does not - or at any rate did not until Jabberwocky.

gimble is a real word - a variant spelling of "gimbal", which is a contrivance by means of which articles for use at sea (especially the compass and the chronometer) are suspended so as to keep a horizontal position. It is not a real verb, and it does not mean "to make holes like a gimlet", which is what Carroll said that it meant.

wabe is a Carrollism that he defined in two different ways:

The grass plot around a sundial. It is called a "wabe" because it goes a long way before it, and a long way behind it, and a long way beyond it on each side. Through the Looking Glass

Wabe, (derived from the verb to swab or soak): the side of a hill (from its being soaked by the rain). Rectory Umbrella & Mischmasch

mimsy is a real word - prim; careful; affected; feeble, weak, lightweight. Carroll defined it as a combination of "miserable" and "flimsy", which is close enough for an Oxford don.

borogoves is a Carrollism - "a thin shabby-looking bird with its feathers sticking out all round, something like a live mop. The initial syllable of borogove is pronounced as in borrow, rather than as in worry."

mome is a real word - it meant variously an aunt, a fool, a critic. It is not a real adjective, and it does not mean grave or solemn, nor "from home, having lost their way" as Carroll variously asserted that it did.

raths is a real word - an enclosure (usually of a circular form) made by a strong earthen wall, and serving as a fort and place of residence for the chief of a tribe; a hill-fort. It would have been a lot more fun had it been:

"A species of land turtle. Head erect: mouth like a shark: the fore legs curved out so that the animal walked on its knees: smooth green body: lived on swallows and oysters."

which is what Carroll said it was.

outgrabe is a Carrollism:

Past tense of the verb "to outgribe". (It is connected with the old verb "to grike" or "shrike", from which are derived "shriek" and "creak".) "Squeaked." Rectory Umbrella & Mischmasch

There is no such verb, old or young, as "grike", which is a noun that means a fissure in a rock. To "shrike" meant to pipe like a bird, not to shriek, but it was a real verb, just as a shrike is a real bird.

frumious is a Carrollism - a portmanteau word that combines "furious" and "fuming".

vorpal is a Carrollism - he gave no definition of the term, but he possibly associated it with such real words as "voracious". It was used by another great English poet seventy years after Through the Looking Glass appeared:

Wave at the mechanized barbarian
The vorpal sword of an agrarian.

W H Auden, New Year Letter


manxome is a Carrollism - he gave no definition of the term, and it is a matter of pure conjecture what he intended by it.

uffish is a real word - a variant spelling of "huffish", which meant angry or petulant. Carroll wrote that it meant "a state of mind when the voice is gruffish, the manner roughish, and the temper huffish."

whiffling is a real word - to blow in puffs or slight gusts; hence, to veer or shift about (of the wind; hence, of a ship); to vacillate, to be variable or evasive.

tulgey is a Carrollism - he gave no definition of the term, and again it is a matter of conjecture what he intended by it.

burble is a real word - it meant variously "to form bubbles in water, etc., to gurgle" and "to jumble, confound, huddle, perplex, bewilder". It is possible that Carroll was familiar with the latter use of the word, which is Scots dialect; it is likely that he was familiar with the former use.

galumphing is a Carrollism - possibly a mixture of "gallop" and "triumph".

beamish is a real word, and meant "shining brightly, radiant", pretty much as Carroll intended.

frabjous is a Carrollism - possibly a portmanteau comprising "fabulous" and "joyous", though it must be remembered that the use of "fabulous" (or "fab") to mean "not entirely objectionable" (cf. "brilliant") is very much a twentieth-century phenomenon and would have been unknown in Carroll's time.

chortled is where we came in.

This information brought to you by woubits inc, pedants to the gentry since 1903 and possibly earlier still, in the hope that Beccaann and her mother may continue to enjoy weightless poetry without the need to terrify the males of the household. The definitions I have given of real words are from the Oxford English Dictionary, and if they don't know a real word, no one does.
Beccaann (Beccaann)
New member
Username: Beccaann

Post Number: 1619
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 5:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think my brother was actually quite amused by my mother and I, seeing as he's a sarcastic, nitpicking smartass (in the best possible way) and for once he was on the outside of the silly debate.

Also, this may be the first time I ever heard my step-dad NOT have an opinion to give.
Suido (Suido)
New member
Username: Suido

Post Number: 130
Registered: 8-2007
Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 6:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Clever man. As long as he didn't chortle in front of his wife about the way in which she had been burbled, he would been have in no danger of her becoming uffish, let alone frumious. In the face of a frumious woman, only a mome would not act mimsily. I personally would construct a veritable raths in the backyard, and tulgey in a whiffling way, until the world was beamish once more.

I find the word vorpal puts me in mind of a portmanteau of vortex and portal: some sort of irresistable and otherworldly power, capable of banishing monsters and the like.
Blazingphoenix (Blazingphoenix)
New member
Username: Blazingphoenix

Post Number: 151
Registered: 2-2007
Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 6:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

...I think that Vorpal Slash was an attack that one of the swords in Golden Sun let out when you used it in battle... just thought I'd mention that for any of you gamers out there, but I never knew that it was a Carollism! The things you learn! Awesome puzzle, give us another!
Bodo (Bodo)
New member
Username: Bodo

Post Number: 2054
Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 8:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My paladin had a vorpal sword way back in the ancient times when we gamed on paper with dice (AD&D). That was kinda fun...although we did have an argument about if it would work on critters/beings whose necks had a greater diameter than the length of the sword (I was in favor of it being magic that would work on any size neck, seeing as it was one of my characters what had the thing).
Crazypalpig (Crazypalpig)
New member
Username: Crazypalpig

Post Number: 1450
Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 3:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

AD&D or are you just ADD? :o)
Great puzzle though!(And I never understood those games where mages can't fight AND back up at the same time!)

Add Your Message Here
Post:
Username: Posting Information:
This is a private posting area. Only registered users and moderators may post messages here.
Password:
Options: Enable HTML code in message
Automatically activate URLs in message
Action: