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Enjay (Enjay)
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Post Number: 918
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 8:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If they had both been careful, she would have died. And if they had both been careless, she would have died. As it was, she lived.
Eli (Eli)
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Post Number: 776
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Posted on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 9:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Both they and both are the same two persons? All 3 she the same person? Is she part of 'they'?

She=h?a?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Post Number: 920
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Posted on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 9:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Both they and both are the same two persons? Both "they"s are the same
All 3 she the same person? Yes
Is she part of 'they'? Yes

She=h?a? Yes to both
Enjay (Enjay)
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Post Number: 921
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Posted on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 9:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oops, I kind of misread your first question...the "they"s are the same, and the "both"s are the same
Beccaann (Beccaann)
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Posted on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 10:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The other one of "they": H? A? M?

As it was:
"She" was careful and the other careless?
"She" was careless and the other careful?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Post Number: 922
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Posted on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 10:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The other one of "they": H? A? M? Yes/yes/yes but irrel

As it was:
"She" was careful and the other careless?
"She" was careless and the other careful? This one
Eli (Eli)
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Post Number: 778
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Posted on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 10:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would she have survived if she had been the careful one?

Is the relationship between them relevant? Do they know each other? Are they being careful/careless at the same time? If not, relevant how long it is in between?
Lporter229 (Lporter229)
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Posted on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 10:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he die?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Post Number: 923
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Posted on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 11:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would she have survived if she had been the careful one? So long as he had been careless, yes

Is the relationship between them relevant? Yes
Do they know each other? No but not really relevant
Are they being careful/careless at the same time? No
If not, relevant how long it is in between? Not really, but it would have to be under a certain period of time...let's say between 10 minutes and 30 minutes
Enjay (Enjay)
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Post Number: 924
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Posted on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 11:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he die? No
Eli (Eli)
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Posted on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 11:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I guess we should try to determine what they were doing when they were careful/careless? Are they doing the same thing? Any jobs relevant?

Had they ever met? Did they meet during? or after this?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Post Number: 926
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Posted on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 11:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I guess we should try to determine what they were doing when they were careful/careless? Yes
Are they doing the same thing? No
Any jobs relevant? Yesish

Had they ever met? Did they meet during? or after this? They met afterwards, or during depending on you definition of "this", and they might have met before, the puzzle would work either way.
Enjay (Enjay)
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Post Number: 927
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Posted on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 11:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I made a small blooper at 11:00pm:

If not, relevant how long it is in between? Not really, but it would have to be under a certain period of time...let's say between 10 minutes and 30 minutes

My answer should have been: Not really, but they happened during the same day
Dlcygnet (Dlcygnet)
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Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 12:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Car accident relevant? Another kind of accident?
Ice relevant? Careful = pumping brakes? Careless = slamming on breaks? Because each did one or the other, but not both the same - the way they collided wasn't as nasty?
Sixtyeight (Sixtyeight)
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Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 1:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

was one of them careful and the other careless?
if yes, was he careful?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 4:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Car accident relevant? No
Another kind of accident? Yes
Ice relevant? No
Careful = pumping brakes? Careless = slamming on breaks? Because each did one or the other, but not both the same - the way they collided wasn't as nasty? No, but good thought
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 4:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

was one of them careful and the other careless? Yes
if yes, was he careful? Yes
Lshooter3k (Lshooter3k)
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Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 5:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did her carelessness come first?
or did his carefulness come first?

Is this relevant?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Post Number: 930
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Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 6:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did her carelessness come first? This
or did his carefulness come first?

Is this relevant? Yes
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 6:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is she a knife-thrower's assistant? One of those women who gets sawn in half in a circus?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 8:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is she a knife-thrower's assistant? One of those women who gets sawn in half in a circus? No to both
Dlcygnet (Dlcygnet)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 6:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are any of these professions relevant? Were the two people involved any of the following:

Artistic/musical/writer?
Banking/financial/real estate?
Clerical/Administrative?
Computer related / Hardware ?
Construction / Craftsman ?
Education / Academic Research ?
Entertainment / Media ?
Executive / Management ?
Hospitality / Travel ?
Legal Services ? Law enforcement?
Manufacturing / Distributions ?
Medical / Health Services ?
Politics / Government / Military ?
Sales / Marketing ?
Technical / Science / Engineering ?
Teaching / Child care?
Transportation ?
Food Service ?
Sports?
Jailbird / Criminal?
Religion?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Post Number: 932
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Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 10:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are any of these professions relevant? Were the two people involved any of the following:

Artistic/musical/writer?
Banking/financial/real estate?
Clerical/Administrative?
Computer related / Hardware ?
Construction / Craftsman ?
Education / Academic Research ?
Entertainment / Media ?
Executive / Management ?
Hospitality / Travel ?
Legal Services ? Law enforcement?
Manufacturing / Distributions ?
Medical / Health Services ?
Politics / Government / Military ?
Sales / Marketing ?
Technical / Science / Engineering ?
Teaching / Child care?
Transportation ?
Food Service ?
Sports?
Jailbird / Criminal? This for him, her profession is not relevant
Religion?
Dlcygnet (Dlcygnet)
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Posted on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 12:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the guy going to kill her?
Dlcygnet (Dlcygnet)
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Posted on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 12:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the guy going to kill her?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Post Number: 936
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Posted on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 1:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the guy going to kill her? Yes
How did you manage to double post at the same time? If I do that it comes up with a message saying "You probably hit the button twice" ad only posts the message once.
Eli (Eli)
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Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 12:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did her carelessness mean that she wasn't at a certain spot at a certain time? Was she injured because of her carelessness?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 12:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did her carelessness mean that she wasn't at a certain spot at a certain time? Hmm, yes, but indirectly
Was she injured because of her carelessness? No
Eli (Eli)
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Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 3:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If she hadn't been careless, would she then have been at point A? And he would also have been there and then killed her? But she was careless, and indirectly because of that she was not at point A, so he couldn't kill her?

Did her carelessness trigger at set of events that caused her not to be at point A?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Post Number: 939
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Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 3:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If she hadn't been careless, would she then have been at point A? And he would also have been there and then killed her? But she was careless, and indirectly because of that she was not at point A, so he couldn't kill her? Yes, this is correct

Did her carelessness trigger at set of events that caused her not to be at point A? Yes, but other factors came into it as well
Eli (Eli)
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Posted on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 9:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Let's give these people names, lol.. Sheila and John, perhaps?

You said that they don't know each other. But John was going to kill Sheila? Was he planning to kill her specifically? or just anyone? Was someone else killed instead? If he intended to kill Sheila and noone else, is it relevant why? (seeing as they don't know each other)

Was John going to kill Sheila in her home? workplace? in someone else's home? in a public building? somewhere else indoors? outdoors? Is it relevant how he was going to kill her?

Was she careless with some sort of tool? did she slip? spill something? was someone else hurt? if so, did she take that person to hospital or doctor?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 4:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Let's give these people names, lol.. Sheila and John, perhaps? Sure, why not?

You said that they don't know each other.Correct
But John was going to kill Sheila? "Going to" may actually be a bit misleading...it would be more accurate to say "if she had died, it would have been John who killed her"
Was he planning to kill her specifically? or just anyone? Neither
Was someone else killed instead? No
If he intended to kill Sheila and noone else,This is not entirely accurate
is it relevant why? (seeing as they don't know each other)but the reason is relevant

Was John going to kill Sheila in her home? Yes
workplace? in someone else's home? in a public building? somewhere else indoors? outdoors? No to rest
Is it relevant how he was going to kill her? No

Was she careless with some sort of tool? did she slip? spill something? was someone else hurt? if so, did she take that person to hospital or doctor? No to all
Eli (Eli)
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Posted on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 10:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would the killing be more of an accident than planned murder? Was John a burglar? if so, did he break in to Sheila's house? and would have killed her if she had been at home?

Is it relevant where Sheila was?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 10:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would the killing be more of an accident than planned murder? See next answers
Was John a burglar? Yes
if so, did he break in to Sheila's house? Yes
and would have killed her if she had been at home? Correct

Is it relevant where Sheila was?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 10:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it relevant where Sheila was? Yes
Lporter229 (Lporter229)
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Posted on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 10:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Shelia not at her home when he intended to kill her as a result of his being careful? Did she have an accident as a result of her carelessness?
Eli (Eli)
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Posted on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 10:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So Sheila avoided being killed by the burglar John, because she had been careless and was not at home when he broke in to her house. Right?

Still confused about the second part though, sigh.

Because of her carelessness was Sheila right outside her house? In a car? In someone else house? in a public place? Had she forgotten something somewhere else and had to go back for it?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 - 5:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sorry Lporter229 and Eli...I could have sworn I answered these yesterday!

Was Shelia not at her home when he intended to kill her as a result of his being careful? Did she have an accident as a result of her carelessness? Yes, although he was never "intending" to kill her... see answers above

So Sheila avoided being killed by the burglar John, because she had been careless and was not at home when he broke in to her house. Right? Almost...she was not there when he broke in, bu that was nothing to do with her carelessness. The carelessness helped her in a slightly different way.

Still confused about the second part though, sigh. :-)

Because of her carelessness was Sheila right outside her house? In a car? In someone else house? in a public place? Could you clarify...at what point in the events of the puzzle are you talking about here?
Had she forgotten something somewhere else and had to go back for it? No
Dlcygnet (Dlcygnet)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 - 7:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Had Sheila carelessly left her door unlocked? And thus the burglar, being thorough/careful, managed to get in, get out, and be gone before she got back? Thus avoiding a rather nasty confrontation?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Thursday, December 13, 2007 - 7:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Had Sheila carelessly left her door unlocked? And thus the burglar, being thorough/careful, managed to get in, get out, and be gone before she got back? Thus avoiding a rather nasty confrontation? No...good thinking though
Eli (Eli)
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Posted on Friday, December 14, 2007 - 11:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I guess it will help to determine in what way Sheila was careless, so let me try.

Did she break something? spill something? drop something? forget something? forget someone? did she leave something where it shouldn't have been? did she misplace something?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Friday, December 14, 2007 - 4:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I guess it will help to determine in what way Sheila was careless, so let me try.

Did she break something? No
spill something? No
drop something? This one is closest but not entirely accurate
forget something? No
forget someone? No
did she leave something where it shouldn't have been? Yesish
did she misplace something? No
Eli (Eli)
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Posted on Saturday, December 15, 2007 - 12:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did she lose something? Was something broken?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Saturday, December 15, 2007 - 5:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did she lose something? Was something broken? Neither
Eli (Eli)
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Posted on Monday, December 24, 2007 - 1:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

When she was careless, was she at home? at work? at someone else's house? outdoors? Is the carelessness one single act? or an ongoing thing? Is it something she's doing? or something she forgets to do?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Monday, December 24, 2007 - 2:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

When she was careless, was she at home? This one
at work? at someone else's house? outdoors?
Is the carelessness one single act? or an ongoing thing? Two closely-related acts
Is it something she's doing? This or something she forgets to do?

Thanks for starting this one off again!
Eli (Eli)
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Posted on Tuesday, December 25, 2007 - 11:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You're welcome, just on holidays with very limited access to internet that's why I've been silent for a while

Did she do something we all do on a regular basis? If so, did she do some housework? Take a bath? or shower? wash her hair? did she dress herself? exercise? read? watch tv? watch a film? talk on the phone?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Thursday, December 27, 2007 - 3:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You're welcome, just on holidays with very limited access to internet that's why I've been silent for a while That's fine!

Did she do something we all do on a regular basis? Nothing relevant
If so, did she do some housework? Take a bath? or shower? wash her hair? did she dress herself? exercise? read? watch tv? watch a film? talk on the phone? Irrel to all
Eli (Eli)
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Posted on Friday, December 28, 2007 - 1:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So what she did is not relevant? Does that mean that her carelessness is not directly connected to her actions at the time?

is there an item? or items? involved in the careless part of the puzzle? Something she kind-off dropped?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Friday, December 28, 2007 - 6:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So what she did is not relevant? Does that mean that her carelessness is not directly connected to her actions at the time? She did something careless. The careless thing was not any of the things you listed above,and it is not relevant whether she did any of those things during the course of the puzzle.

is there an item? Yes or items? involved in the careless part of the puzzle? Something she kind-off dropped? Yes
Eli (Eli)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 02, 2008 - 10:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Back at work, ready to get this puzzle started again. I think I will print the whole thing and take with me home tonight so that I can sit back and come up with many "intelligent" questions to ask (and probably some not so intelligent, lol).

If they both had been careless, would she have died for the same reason? In this scenario, would it matter in what way they both would have been careless?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 02, 2008 - 8:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Back at work, ready to get this puzzle started again. I think I will print the whole thing and take with me home tonight so that I can sit back and come up with many "intelligent" questions to ask (and probably some not so intelligent, lol). Thanks a lot for your interest!

If they both had been careless, would she have died for the same reason? Yes
In this scenario, would it matter in what way they both would have been careless? Yes
Eli (Eli)
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Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 9:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If they both had been carelass, would she then have died in the same place, her house?

In your reply on 3rd December you said that the relationship between them is relevant. Is there anything else we need to know about this relationship, beyond the fact they are burglar/victim?

Regarding my posting on the 10th and your reply on the 12th (Because of her carelessness was Sheila right outside her house? In a car? In someone else house? in a public place? Could you clarify...at what point in the events of the puzzle are you talking about here?). I initially meant where she was when John arrived. Were she any of those places? But in hindsight, I can't find any questions about where Sheila was when she was careless. So where was she; inside her house? right outside her house? in someone else's house? in a shop? public place? at work? outdoors?

Also just realized that one basic question hasn't been asked (at least I can't find it), are there any other relevant persons in this puzzle?

Did Sheila have to do something as a result of her carelessness? Is the careless action related to her private life? work? someone else?

Did her carelessness cause her? or someone else? great annoyance?

The relevant item, is it;
small enough to hold in the palm of your hand? up to the size of a book? chair? table? car? bigger than any of these? is it made of wood? stone? fabrics? metal? glass? plastic? gas? liquid? is it manmade? natural? any kind of technology relevant?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Friday, January 04, 2008 - 4:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If they both had been carelass, would she then have died in the same place, her house? Yes

In your reply on 3rd December you said that the relationship between them is relevant. Is there anything else we need to know about this relationship, beyond the fact they are burglar/victim? No, this is all you need

Regarding my posting on the 10th and your reply on the 12th (Because of her carelessness was Sheila right outside her house? In a car? In someone else house? in a public place? Could you clarify...at what point in the events of the puzzle are you talking about here?). I initially meant where she was when John arrived. Were she any of those places? She was not home when John arrived at her house, it doesn't really matter where she was. This however was not to do with her carelessness...she would have been in the same place even if she had been careful
But in hindsight, I can't find any questions about where Sheila was when she was careless. So where was she; inside her house? This one right outside her house? in someone else's house? in a shop? public place? at work? outdoors?

Also just realized that one basic question hasn't been asked (at least I can't find it), are there any other relevant persons in this puzzle? No

Did Sheila have to do something as a result of her carelessness? No Is the careless action related to her private life? work? someone else? Private life I suppose

Did her carelessness cause her? or someone else? great annoyance? Not at the time, indirectly it would have caused John great annoyance (by saving Sheila)

The relevant item, is it;
small enough to hold in the palm of your hand? Possibly
up to the size of a book? No bigger than a chair and probably a bit smaller chair? table? car? bigger than any of these? is it made of wood? stone? fabrics? metal? glass? plastic? gas? liquid? is it manmade? natural? It is solid, and could be any material but not one that is very breakable any kind of technology relevant? No

It is probably worth mentioning that there are several items that could work as "the item" an I didn't have a specific one in mind when I made up this puzzle. The exact nature of the item is not important.
Eli (Eli)
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Posted on Friday, January 04, 2008 - 7:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Now I'm totally confused. I thought she would have been home if she hadn't been careless, that her carelessness indirectly caused her to be somewhere else?? Back to the drawing board, sigh..

If she hadn't been careless would John still have arrived at her house at the same time? Was the item somehow involved in her careless action? Is it relevant where in the house she was when she was careless?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Saturday, January 05, 2008 - 4:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Now I'm totally confused. I thought she would have been home if she hadn't been careless, that her carelessness indirectly caused her to be somewhere else?? Back to the drawing board, sigh.. Well, there are different points in this puzzle when Sheila was in relevant places. I think I might write a recap below, to help myself as much as you, because I don't want to be giving unintentionally misleading answers.

If she hadn't been careless would John still have arrived at her house at the same time? Yes
Was the item somehow involved in her careless action? Yes
Is it relevant where in the house she was when she was careless? Yes
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Saturday, January 05, 2008 - 4:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Recap

If Sheila and John had both been careful, Sheila would have died. And if they had both been careless, she would have died. As it was, she lived.

We have established that Sheila was careless, then some time later John was careful.
John is a burglar, who broke into Sheila's house. If Sheila had found him in her house, he would have killed her to avoid being caught. If they had both been careful or both been careless, this would have happened.

When John broke in, Sheila was not home, but this was for a reason utterly unconnected to either her carelessness or John's carefulness.

If Sheila had not been careless, John would have arrived at the same time as he did.

An item is involved in Sheila's carelessness, it is not relevant exactly what but it is smaller than a chair and not made of breakable material. It is relevant where in the house Sheila was careless.

I hope that makes things clearer...if not, just say!
Eli (Eli)
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Posted on Saturday, January 05, 2008 - 11:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Let me start on where in the house she was

kitchen?
living room?
dining room?
hall?
bathroom?
toilet?
bedroom?
laundry room?
pantry?
garage?
storage room?
Does it matter how big the house was?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Sunday, January 06, 2008 - 9:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Let me start on where in the house she was

kitchen?
living room? This one
dining room?
hall?
bathroom?
toilet?
bedroom?
laundry room?
pantry?
garage?
storage room?
Does it matter how big the house was? No
Eli (Eli)
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Posted on Sunday, January 06, 2008 - 8:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You said that nothing was broken, but was the item damaged somehow? Like still fully operational, but maybe chipped or similar? Is it relevant what Sheila was doing when the carelessness happened? Did she leave something on the floor and kicked into it?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Sunday, January 06, 2008 - 8:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You said that nothing was broken, but was the item damaged somehow? No
Like still fully operational, but maybe chipped or similar? No
Is it relevant what Sheila was doing when the carelessness happened? No
Did she leave something on the floor and kicked into it? No
Eli (Eli)
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Posted on Sunday, January 06, 2008 - 11:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did something fall on her? Did she bump in to something?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Monday, January 07, 2008 - 4:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did something fall on her? No
Did she bump in to something? Yes, and...?
Eli (Eli)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2008 - 1:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the item we're looking for the thing she bumped into? You said in the beginning that she wasn't injured because of her carelessness. Correct? But was she maybe bruised or similar? Maybe causing her to be slower? So she didn't get home as early as she would if she hadn't bumped into 'something'?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Thursday, January 10, 2008 - 5:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the item we're looking for the thing she bumped into? Yes
You said in the beginning that she wasn't injured because of her carelessness. Correct? Correct
But was she maybe bruised or similar? No
Maybe causing her to be slower? So she didn't get home as early as she would if she hadn't bumped into 'something'? No
Eli (Eli)
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Posted on Thursday, January 10, 2008 - 10:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

And all we need to know is that the item is of a certain size and non-breakable. Right? So there was no damage to neither the object nor Sheila herself.

Did she realize something she had forgotten when she bumped into the object? Did she see something on it? near it? or did she not see something that should have been there?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Friday, January 11, 2008 - 8:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

And all we need to know is that the item is of a certain size and non-breakable. Right? So there was no damage to neither the object nor Sheila herself. Correct

Did she realize something she had forgotten when she bumped into the object? {No}
Did she see something on it? near it? or did she not see something that should have been there? No to all
Eli (Eli)
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Posted on Friday, January 11, 2008 - 9:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hmmm, when Sheila bumped in to this item, did it hurt? If so, did she do something while she was out that caused her to get home later, something that would prevent her from bump in to the item again? or something that would protect agains pain if it should happen again?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Friday, January 11, 2008 - 10:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hmmm, when Sheila bumped in to this item, did it hurt? No
If so, did she do something while she was out that caused her to get home later, something that would prevent her from bump in to the item again? or something that would protect agains pain if it should happen again? No to all
Eli (Eli)
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Posted on Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 1:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did something else relevant happen before? or after she bumped into the object?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 7:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did something else relevant happen before? or after she bumped into the object? Something relevant happened to the object after she bumped into it. A number of other relevant things happened after she bumped the object, including John's carefulness.
~damia~ (~damia~)
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Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 11:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

did she move the object after bumping into it? take it somewhere? did she think it was damaged?

did John just break in at a random time? was he watching the house? is the same object involved in his carefulness?
Eli (Eli)
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Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 1:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the object move when she bumped into it? Did she spill something on it? did something non-damaging happen to the object?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 5:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

did she move the object after bumping into it? Not exactly...see answer to Eli's question below
take it somewhere? did she think it was damaged? No to both

did John just break in at a random time? was he watching the house? irrel, other than that he broke in while Sheila was out
is the same object involved in his carefulness? Yes

Did the object move when she bumped into it? Yes
Did she spill something on it? No
did something non-damaging happen to the object? Yes
Eli (Eli)
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Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 8:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The non-damaging thing that happened to the object, was it something else than that it moved? If it was, did the object change somehow?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 9:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The non-damaging thing that happened to the object, was it something else than that it moved? No, the non-damaging thing was the movement (though there's a slightly more accurate term than "moved"
If it was, did the object change somehow?
Eli (Eli)
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Posted on Tuesday, January 15, 2008 - 9:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

But the object changed position, right?
~damia~ (~damia~)
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Posted on Tuesday, January 15, 2008 - 11:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

was there something else on the object? something that spilled? or did the object just get knocked over? onto the floor? if so did she pick it up?did she need to leave the house to get something to clear it up?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Tuesday, January 15, 2008 - 5:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

But the object changed position, right? Yes, see answers to Damia below...

was there something else on the object? No
something that spilled? No
or did the object just get knocked over? see next answer
onto the floor? Yes
if so did she pick it up?No
did she need to leave the house to get something to clear it up? No, remember she would have been out when John broke in even if she hadn't been careless.

You've established now that Sheila's carelessness consisted o knocing the object onto the floor, and not picking it up. Now can you solve the rest of the puzzle?
Arek_fu (Arek_fu)
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Posted on Tuesday, January 15, 2008 - 8:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did John's carefulness consist in avoiding to pick up the object?

If he had picked it up, would he have noticed anything peculiar about the object? About its surroundings? Did the object hide something from John's view?

If he had picked it up, would he have stayed longer in Sheila's apartment?
Eli (Eli)
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Posted on Tuesday, January 15, 2008 - 9:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was John careful in the sense that he never disrupted a house he broke into?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 4:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did John's carefulness consist in avoiding to pick up the object? No

If he had picked it up, would he have noticed anything peculiar about the object? About its surroundings? Did the object hide something from John's view?

If he had picked it up, would he have stayed longer in Sheila's apartment? These are all N/A

Was John careful in the sense that he never disrupted a house he broke into? This is certainly connectd to his carefulness
~damia~ (~damia~)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 5:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

did he step on the object? fall over it? damage it in any way? pick it up? did he think he had knocked it over?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 5:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

did he step on the object? fall over it? damage it in any way? pick it up? This
did he think he had knocked it over? Yes
Arek_fu (Arek_fu)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 6:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By picking it up, did he notice anything peculiar about the object? About its surroundings? Did the object hide something from John's view, before or after being picked up?

If he had not picked it up, would he have stayed longer in Sheila's apartment?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 7:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By picking it up, did he notice anything peculiar about the object? About its surroundings? Did the object hide something from John's view, before or after being picked up? None of these

If he had not picked it up, would he have stayed longer in Sheila's apartment? No
~damia~ (~damia~)
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Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 9:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

when Sheila got home was John still there? did she notice the object had been picked up?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 4:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

when Sheila got home was John still there? Yes
did she notice the object had been picked up? Yes
Arek_fu (Arek_fu)
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Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 7:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So did she realise someone had broken into the house? Did she leave to call for help?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Friday, January 18, 2008 - 5:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So did she realise someone had broken into the house? Yes
Did she leave to call for help? And yes...it's basically solved now, for the final piece of the puzzle, where was the item in the room?
Eli (Eli)
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Posted on Saturday, January 19, 2008 - 6:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the object visible through the window, so she knew before she actually walked in the door?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Saturday, January 19, 2008 - 6:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the object visible through the window, so she knew before she actually walked in the door? Yes. That's all I think...spoiler to follow
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Saturday, January 19, 2008 - 6:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

***** SPOILER *****

Sheila was preparing to go out, and carelessly knocked an item (let's say a vase) off the windowsill. Being in a hurry, she didn't pick it up and left the house.Meanwhile, John (a burglar) came by with a view to robbing the house. He came in through the window, saw the vase on the floor, and assumed that he had knocked it off so being a careful chap he replaced it on the sill. While John was in the house, Sheila returned and was about to enter but saw the vase mysteriously returned to the sill, which raised her suspicions so she went and got help. Had she not seen the vase and entered the house, John would have killed her to prevent himself being caught...as it was she lived.
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Saturday, January 19, 2008 - 6:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks to everybody who played...especially Eli for sticking with it all the way through, and Damia and Arek fu for helping out and getting pieces of the solution!

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