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Nimue (Nimue)
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Post Number: 3243
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Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 10:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

All Americans as well as some others on this forum probably know that the contest for the 2008 Democratic presidential nomination is between Hillary Clinton & Barack Obama. This is considered a big cultural change because HC is a woman & BO is black. But there's another, much less obvious, cultural change that's likely to result from this campaign, especially if HC wins. What is it??
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Post Number: 1090
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Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 1:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Anything to do with Democratic Party policy V republican policy? Will this arise as a result of an election promised being fulfilled (however likely that is)? Or is it simply something to do with the candidates themselves? Anything to do with religous backgrounds? educational? their families? when they were born?

Will this cultural change be felt across the US or just in specific states?

Can i take it that sex and ethnic origin have nothing to do with this puzzle or am I FAing?
Dlcygnet (Dlcygnet)
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Post Number: 1246
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Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 4:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does it have anything to do with presidential inheritance? I.e. There have been distant cousin, Father/son presidents... now there'll be husband/wife presidents? We've only had one other case of a husband/wife governor.

Does it have to do with how people vote? I.e. no longer voting for the "tallest" candidate?
Does the change have to do with voter turnout?

Is the cultural change related primarily to...
Voting?
Party Affiliations?
Politics?
Economics?
Entertainment?
Social Issues/norms?
Healthcare?
Existing Laws?
Warfare?
Agriculture?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Post Number: 3248
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Posted on Wednesday, April 09, 2008 - 9:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 1:58 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Anything to do with Democratic Party policy V republican policy? no Will this arise as a result of an election promised being fulfilled (however likely that is)? no Or is it simply something to do with the candidates themselves? yes Anything to do with religous backgrounds? noeducational? no their families? noish when they were born? no

Will this cultural change be felt across the US or just in specific states? the former

Can i take it that sex and ethnic origin have nothing to do with this puzzle no. you can't or am I FAing? you're FAing
Dlcygnet (Dlcygnet)
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Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 4:52 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Does it have anything to do with presidential inheritance? no I.e. There have been distant cousin, Father/son presidents... now there'll be husband/wife presidents? We've only had one other case of a husband/wife governor.

Does it have to do with how people vote? no I.e. no longer voting for the "tallest" candidate? no
Does the change have to do with voter turnout? no

Is the cultural change related primarily to...
Voting? no
Party Affiliations? no
Politics? no
Economics? no
Entertainment? no
Social Issues/norms? yes
Healthcare? no
Existing Laws? no
Warfare?no
Agriculture? no
Ezhonok (Ezhonok)
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Post Number: 8
Registered: 4-2008
Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 5:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well... i guess it's the fact that for the first time a former first lady will become President...
Ezhonok (Ezhonok)
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Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 5:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ok, sorry, forget this last post. I saw you already answered to this.
Enjay (Enjay)
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Post Number: 1091
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Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 9:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Will the change only arise if the Democrats win the White House in November? Or is the competition for the nomination itself enough to create the change?

If the competition was for the Republican nomination would the change occur? Or are Democratic policies specifically relevant?

Liberalism/conservatism relevant? Maybe more conservative people who have voted Democrat before will now vote Republican? Or the whole country might shift slightly towards a more liberal outlook?

Are racism and/or sexism relevant? People who might feel that one or the other of the candidates might not make a good leader because of their sex/race? Is it relevant that people might feel they can't criticisethe candidates because they will be accused of sexism or racism?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 8:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 9:39 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Will the change only arise if the Democrats win the White House in November? Or is the competition for the nomination itself enough to create the change?

If the competition was for the Republican nomination would the change occur?It could occur in any case but is both likely & likely to be more extteme if the Democrats win Or are Democratic policies specifically relevant? no

Liberalism/conservatism relevant? no Maybe more conservative people who have voted Democrat before will now vote Republican? no Or the whole country might shift slightly towards a more liberal outlook? no

Are racism and/or sexism relevant? noPeople who might feel that one or the other of the candidates might not make a good leader because of their sex/race? no Is it relevant that people might feel they can't criticisethe candidates because they will be accused of sexism or racism? no
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 9:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are people's beliefs likely to be changed? Their thoughts on race/gender issues? Is prejudice relevant?

The reason why the change is more likely in HC wins:
Because more people are uneasy with the thought of a female president than are uneasy with the thought of a black president?
Becuase having a female president could be seen as a more radical change than having a black president?
Because her husband has already been President?

Is there anything relevant about Obama other than his race? Is his race relevant?
Is there anything relevant about Clinton other than her gender? Is her gender relevant?

Are either of the two candidate's backgrounds relevant? Their previous political careers? Their beliefs and policies? Their reputation? Their popularity?

Is the change likely to be lasting? Would evryone consider it a change for te better? Some people? Would whether you consider it good or not depend on your politcal beliefs?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 9:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Enjay (Enjay)
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Post Number: 1099
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Posted on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 9:18 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Are people's beliefs likely to be changed? see next answer Their thoughts on race no/gender issues yes? Is prejudice relevant? noish

The reason why the change is more likely in HC wins:
Because more people are uneasy with the thought of a female president than are uneasy with the thought of a black president? no
Becuase having a female president could be seen as a more radical change than having a black president? no
Because her husband has already been President? no

Is there anything relevant about Obama other than his race? no Is his race relevant? no
Is there anything relevant about Clinton other than her gender? yes Is her gender relevant? yes

Are either of the two candidate's backgrounds relevant? no Their previous political careers? no Their beliefs and policies? no Their reputation? no Their popularity? no

Is the change likely to be lasting? yes Would evryone consider it a change for te better? noSome people? yes Would whether you consider it good or not depend on your politcal beliefs? no
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 9:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So is it only the fact that Clinton is campaigning which would bring about the change? If she was campaigning against a white man would the change still be likely? If there was no competition for the nomination and she had definitely got it?

Are people's views on women likely to change? Are women likely to succeed better in employment, or be seen as higher status, because Clinton proved that women can be successful leaders?

The relevant thing about Clinton, is it to do with politics? With who is likely to support her? Or not support her? Her family? Appearance? Is it something that most people would know about her?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 10:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 9:48 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
So is it only the fact that Clinton is campaigning which would bring about the change? yesIf she was campaigning against a white man would the change still be likely? yes If there was no competition for the nomination and she had definitely got it? yes

Are people's views on women likely to change? noish Are women likely to succeed better in employment, or be seen as higher status, because Clinton proved that women can be successful leaders? no

The relevant thing about Clinton, is it to do with politics? no With who is likely to support her? no Or not support her? no Her family? no Appearance? no Is it something that most people would know about her? yes
Travis (Travis)
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Posted on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 10:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Relevant that we'll have a former First Lady as president? That a former president will be First Man? That we'll even have a First Man?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 11:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Travis (Travis)
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Posted on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 10:29 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Relevant that we'll have a former First Lady as president? no That a former president will be First Man? no That we'll even have a First Man? no
Gourami (Gourami)
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Posted on Monday, April 14, 2008 - 2:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Anything to do with pronouns? The use of He vs. She or Madame vs. Mister?

Is the something else about her that is relevant...
A characteristic of her? (If so, physical? Mental? Personality?) A decision she has made? An action she has taken/will take? An assumption made about her? An association or cause she is associated with?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Gourami (Gourami)
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Anything to do with pronouns? no The use of He vs. She or Madame vs. Mister? no

Is the something else about her that is relevant...
A characteristic of her? yes (If so, physical? no Mental? no Personality? no) A decision she has made? noAn action she has taken/will take? no An assumption made about her? no An association or cause she is associated with? no
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2008 - 9:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I read something which theorised that Clinton's campaign could lead to a surge in the number of women becoming feminists, is that relevant?
Gourami (Gourami)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2008 - 2:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A characteristic of her speech? Her religion? Her emotions? or lack of? Her facial expressions?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2008 - 9:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2008 - 9:57 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
I read something which theorised that Clinton's campaign could lead to a surge in the number of women becoming feminists, is that relevant? no
Gourami (Gourami)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2008 - 2:24 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
A characteristic of her speech? no Her religion? no Her emotions? no or lack of? noHer facial expressions? no
Dlcygnet (Dlcygnet)
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Posted on Friday, April 18, 2008 - 12:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Characteristic of Hilary Clinton related to...
Education?
Status?
Station in life?
Marital status?
Affiliation?
Family?
Background?
Genetics?
Travel?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Friday, April 18, 2008 - 8:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dlcygnet (Dlcygnet)
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Posted on Friday, April 18, 2008 - 12:00 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Characteristic of Hilary Clinton related to...
Education?
Status?
Station in life?
Marital status?
Affiliation?
Family?
Background?
Genetics?
Travel?none of the above!!
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 3:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Anything to do with the "Clinton Health plan" which she unsuccessfully tried to get through when she was first lady?

Any other cause she supported relevant?

Hilary was a memeber of the republican party in the 60's is this relevant?
Nimue (Nimue)
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eter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 3:34 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Anything to do with the "Clinton Health plan" which she unsuccessfully tried to get through when she was first lady? no

Any other cause she supported relevant? no

Hilary was a memeber of the republican party in the 60's is this relevant? no
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 11:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

eter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 3:34 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Anything to do with the "Clinton Health plan" which she unsuccessfully tried to get through when she was first lady? no

Any other cause she supported relevant? no

Hilary was a memeber of the republican party in the 60's is this relevant? no
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Tuesday, April 22, 2008 - 11:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

└nything to do with their automatic elevation to Commander and Chief of the US armed forces when elected?

Will the cultural change affect the military?

Any aspects of US foreign policy relevant?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Tuesday, April 22, 2008 - 7:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Peter365 (Peter365)
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´┐Żnything to do with their automatic elevation to Commander and Chief of the US armed forces when elected?no

Will the cultural change affect the military? no

Any aspects of US foreign policy relevant? no
Bentarm (Bentarm)
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Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 7:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If, say, Jackie Kennedy had stood for President, would you expect a similar change to have come about?
If Hillary Clinton were in the race against another woman, would you expect the same change to come about? To be more extreme? Less extreme?
Are any of Clinton's policies relevant?
Is any sort of modern technology relevant?
Is the relevant characterstic of Clinton something to do with her husband? her past actions? Some inherited trait?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 8:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bentarm (Bentarm)
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Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 7:24 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
If, say, Jackie Kennedy had stood for President, would you expect a similar change to have come about? possibly but it would be less likely & probably less pronounced
If Hillary Clinton were in the race against another woman, would you expect the same change to come about? yesTo be more extreme? noLess extreme? no
Are any of Clinton's policies relevant? no
Is any sort of modern technology relevant?
Is the relevant characterstic of Clinton something to do with her husband? no her past actions? noSome inherited trait?possiblyish--I don't actually know
Bentarm (Bentarm)
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Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 1:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just to check, if (when?) Hillary loses the democratic nomination to Obama, you would still expect the same change to come about, right? but to a lesser extent?
Because she would already have been involved in a major election campaign?
Is it something to do with a default assumption that candidates are male that can no longer exist in the future?

So it is relevant that Hillary is a woman, and something else is also relevant: That she's a mother? Her age? Something to do with her appearance?
Is this other charecteristic something that could also be true of a man? Is true of Obama?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 8:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bentarm (Bentarm)
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Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 1:48 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Just to check, if (when?) Hillary loses the democratic nomination to Obama, you would still expect the same change to come about, right?yes but to a lesser extent? yes
Because she would already have been involved in a major election campaign? no
Is it something to do with a default assumption that candidates are male that can no longer exist in the future? no

So it is relevant that Hillary is a woman, and something else is also relevant: That she's a mother? no Her age? no Something to do with her appearance? no
Is this other charecteristic something that could also be true of a man? yes or yesish Is true of Obama? no
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 2:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it a social minority thing? (I know women aren't exactly a minority, but they've been marginalized.)

The characteristic isn't true of Obama but the change would still occur if he won (and McCain didn't)?

I need to think some more about this one.
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 8:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 2:59 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Is it a social minority thing? no(I know women aren't exactly a minority, but they've been marginalized.) EEEEEEEK!! I may be (am) a (knee-jerk?) liberal, but I'd rather hear chalk squeak on a blackboard than see PC jargon like 'marginalized'. But to each his (ooops, her? own.

The characteristic isn't true of Obama but the change would still occur if he won (and McCain didn't)? yes. But the change will be stronger & more likely the more successful HC is, i.e. if she gets the nomination & even more so if she wins the election.

I need to think some more about this one. I eagerly await the results!!
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 8:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it relevant that she would be the first female president? Relevant that other countries have already had female leaders?

Is there anything relevant about America to make this puzze work (except perhaps the previous lack of female presidents, as stated above)? Would this work in another country, provided it had a similar democratic system? Would it work in Britain? Would it work in Britain if there had never yet been a female Prime Minister?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 9:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 8:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Is it relevant that she would be the first female president?noish or yope Relevant that other countries have already had female leaders? no

Is there anything relevant about America to make this puzze work (except perhaps the previous lack of female presidents, as stated above)? yes Would this work in another country, provided it had a similar democratic system? someWould it work in Britain? yes Would it work in Britain if there had never yet been a female Prime Minister? yes & even if there had been
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 9:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If it were perfectly commonplace for the President to be female, would the effect still occur? To a lesser extent? Not at all? What if there had been other female presidents but it was still not the norm?

Is it relevant how the president of America is elected? Are any other presidents? Or politicians? Or just other people? relevant other than Hillary Clinton?

Is the relevant thing about America to do with its political system? Typical attitudes and beliefs? Language?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 9:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 9:12 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
If it were perfectly commonplace for the President to be female, would the effect still occur? yes To a lesser extent? possibly Not at all? no What if there had been other female presidents but it was still not the norm? yes

Is it relevant how the president of America is elected? noAre any other presidents? yope Or politicians? yope Or just other people? yesrelevant other than Hillary Clinton? yes

Is the relevant thing about America to do with its political system? no Typical attitudes and beliefs? yope Language?yesish or yope
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 9:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I realised that I left my previous question a little vague...if it were normal to have a female president, would the effect have already happened? Or would it still only occur with Clinton's campaign?

Could this occur in all English-speaking countries? Only those countries? Are male vs female words relevant (him vs her, he vs she etc)?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 9:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 9:28 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
I realised that I left my previous question a little vague...if it were normal to have a female president, would the effect have already happened? possible but very unlikely Or would it still only occur with Clinton's campaign? much more likely

Could this occur in all English-speaking countries? yes Only those countries? yes Are male vs female words relevant yes (him vs her, he vs she etc)? not the ones you list
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 10:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would a traditional term applied to the President, or to a political candidate, not apply to Clinton because of her gender? Something similar to Bill Clinton being First Man when there hasn't been one before (I know you said that wasn't relevant, but anything along those lines)?

The relevant words, are they nouns? Pronouns? Adjectives?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 11:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Enjay (Enjay)
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Would a traditional term applied to the President, or to a political candidate, not apply to Clinton because of her gender? no Something similar to Bill Clinton being First Man when there hasn't been one before (I know you said that wasn't relevant, but anything along those lines)? no

The relevant words, are they nouns? yes Pronouns? no Adjectives? no
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2008 - 1:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are any trappings of being president relevant? e.g. Will Camp David be renamed camp Daphne? (THAT'S A JOKE) But seriously will some common terminology change as a result of Clinton's or Obama's victory?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Peter365 (Peter365)
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Are any trappings of being president relevant? no e.g. Will Camp David be renamed camp Daphne? no (THAT'S A JOKE) But seriously will some common terminology change as a result of Clinton's or Obama's victory? noish
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 11:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Anything to do with the make-up or potential make-up of their cabinet?

If Hilary wins is another women slated to be appointed to a position that no women has held before? Likewise for Obama is a black person favourite to be appointed to a position that no black man has held (apart from Obama becoming president of course)

Are names of cabinet posts relevant?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 30, 2008 - 8:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Peter365 (Peter365)
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Anything to do with the make-up or potential make-up of their cabinet? no

If Hilary wins is another women slated to be appointed to a position that no women has held before?no Likewise for Obama is a black person favourite to be appointed to a position that no black man has held (apart from Obama becoming president of course) no

Are names of cabinet posts relevant? no
Dlcygnet (Dlcygnet)
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Back to the nouns comments...

Does this have to do with the language that is used for documents and oaths and how people speak? I.e. "All men are created equal..." Are are *ahem* people using the term people more often rather than men to refer to humankind in general. Does this have to do with the emasculating of society?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Dlcygnet (Dlcygnet)
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Back to the nouns comments...

Does this have to do with the language that is used for documents and oaths and how people speak? no I.e. "All men are created equal..." Are are *ahem* people using the term people more often rather than men to refer to humankind in general. irrel Does this have to do with the emasculating of society? no--whatever "emasculating of society" is supposed to mean
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2008 - 11:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would you personally welcome this cultural change if it occurred?

Or would you regard it as a piece of PC meddling?

Would the change be written into legislation? Or just occur as a result of common usage?

Does it concern marriage?
Voting rights?
Election shortlists?
Employment rights?

Are the relevant nouns some kind of appellation? Mr? Mrs? Dr? Ms? Miss? Man? Woman? Chairman? Chairperson? Spokeswoman? Is there a finite number of nouns we need to discover? Or is it a more generally applicable concept?

Did a similar cultural change occur in 1979 in the UK when Mrs Thatcher was elected?

If Hillary wins the next election but loses horribly to a reactionary Republican in the following one, will the cultural change be reversed? If so, will it be reversed utterly? Partly?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Would you personally welcome this cultural change if it occurred? no

Or would you regard it as a piece of PC meddling? no

Would the change be written into legislation? no Or just occur as a result of common usage? yes

Does it concern marriage? no
Voting rights? no
Election shortlists? no
Employment rights? no

Are the relevant nouns some kind of appellation? yes Mr? no Mrs? no Dr? no Ms? no Miss? no Man? no Woman? no Chairman? no Chairperson? noSpokeswoman? noIs there a finite number of nouns we need to discover? yesOr is it a more generally applicable concept? no

Did a similar cultural change occur in 1979 in the UK when Mrs Thatcher was elected? no

If Hillary wins the next election but loses horribly to a reactionary Republican in the following one, will the cultural change be reversed? no If so, will it be reversed utterly? no Partly? no
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Saturday, May 03, 2008 - 9:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are we looking for one appelation? Two? More?
Would the applelation(s) refer to Hillary herself? If so, now? When/if she becomes the Democratic nominee? When/if she becomes President?
Does it refer to another politician?
Does it refer to one person? A few people? Many people? Is it currently only a male word(s)? A female word? A word with different gender forms (eg waiter/waitress)?
As a result of the cultural change, would the word(s) be changed? Dropped out of usage? A new form of them be used? Apply to someone/something they had never previously applied to?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Enjay (Enjay)
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Are we looking for one appelation? yes Two? noMore? no
Would the applelation(s) refer to Hillary herself? yes If so, now? yes When/if she becomes the Democratic nominee? yes When/if she becomes President? yes
Does it refer to another politician? Possibly, but none that I know of
Does it refer to one person? noA few people? no Many people?fairly many Is it currently only a male word(s)? no A female word? no A word with different gender forms (eg waiter/waitress)? yope
As a result of the cultural change, would the word(s) be changed? no Dropped out of usage? noish A new form of them be used? no Apply to someone/something they had never previously applied to? no
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Saturday, May 03, 2008 - 9:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the word we are looking for a title? Would it make sense to say "______ Hillary Clinton"? "Hillary Clinton is ________"? "Hillary Clinton is a _______"?
Are there both men and women who are referred to by the appellation? Could it refer to people of any job? Any race?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Enjay (Enjay)
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Is the word we are looking for a title? Would it make sense to say "______ Hillary Clinton"? no "Hillary Clinton is ________"? yes "Hillary Clinton is a _______"? yes
Are there both men and women who are referred to by the appellation? yes Could it refer to people of any job? yes Any race? yes
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Saturday, May 03, 2008 - 10:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm having trouble imagining what the word could be, so...
Did it apply to Hillary from the moment she was born? From the moment she became a politician? From the moment she married? From when she first got elected to an office? From when she became First Lady? From when she announced she was running for President? From when she became a serious contendor?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Saturday, May 03, 2008 - 10:25 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
I'm having trouble imagining what the word could be, so...
Did it apply to Hillary from the moment she was born?yes From the moment she became a politician? see previous answer From the moment she married? ditto From when she first got elected to an office? ditto From when she became First Lady? ditto From when she announced she was running for President? ditto From when she became a serious contendor? ditto
Bentarm (Bentarm)
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Posted on Sunday, May 04, 2008 - 8:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does this word also apply to Bill Clinton? To Obama? To Chelsea Clinton? George Bush? Margaret Thatcher? Britney Spears? Thomas Mallory?
Is the phrase "Mister President" relevant?
Would this change result in different language being used to describe the president? to describe something related to the presidency?
Would the new language be more accurate? More "PC"?

You say you wouldn't welcome this change if it occurred - but would it actually be unwelcome to you? Or are you fairly neutral about it?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2008 - 1:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bentarm (Bentarm)
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Posted on Sunday, May 04, 2008 - 8:33 pm:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does this word also apply to Bill Clinton? To Obama? To Chelsea Clinton? George Bush? Margaret Thatcher? Britney Spears? Thomas Mallory? it doesn't apply to any of them
Is the phrase "Mister President" relevant no?
Would this change result in different language being used to describe the president?no to describe something related to the presidency? no
Would the new language be more accurate? no More "PC"? no

You say you wouldn't welcome this change if it occurred - but would it actually be unwelcome to you? no Or are you fairly neutral about it?yes
Dlcygnet (Dlcygnet)
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Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2008 - 10:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Nouns... Names? First name? Last name?

Does this have anything to do with refering to candidates by first name?

Which reminds me... will we be calling her "President Hillary" if she wins, since she's trying to separate herself from her husband's name as much as possible?

P.s. Emasculation of society encapsules how politically correct we've become, "sesitivity training," and how laws overwhelmingly favor females to the point where a guy can be arrested for abuse for punching the wall if a woman is in the room, while a woman can rape/beat her boyfriend/husband and nothing will happen to her (guy just gets laughed at).
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Friday, May 09, 2008 - 2:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

gistered: 6-2005
Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2008 - 10:11 pm:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nouns... Names? yes First name? yesDoes this have anything to do with refering to candidates by first name? yope

Which reminds me... will we be calling her "President Hillary" if she wins, since she's trying to separate herself from her husband's name as much as possible? Who knows? But if we do, that will intensify the change

P.s. Emasculation of society encapsules how politically correct we've become, "sesitivity training," and how laws overwhelmingly favor females to the point where a guy can be arrested for abuse for punching the wall if a woman is in the room,How often has this acxtually occurred, if at all?? while a woman can rape/beat her boyfriend/husband and nothing will happen to her (guy just gets laughed at) ditt. This sounds like the flip side of feminism: the other sex gets all the breaks while "mine" is oppressed}
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Friday, May 09, 2008 - 4:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the name "Hillary" relevant? Relevant that she spells it with 2 "l"s instead of the more usual Hilary? Relevant that she claimed to be named after Edmund Hillary?
Will more people call their children Hillary? Hillary will become more popular than Hilary? Hillary will be considered more a first name than a surname? Will it be considered more a female name than a male name (though as far as I know it's not a male name)?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Friday, May 09, 2008 - 11:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hilary is a name that (in my country at least) may be given to boys and girls in equal measure. It means simply "cheerful", from the Latin (cf. "hilarious"). As I remarked on this very forum a few years ago, well it was said by the bard:

G stands for Gnu, whose weapons of Defence
Are long, sharp, curling Horns, and Common Sense.
To these he adds a Name so short and strong
That even Hardy Boers pronounce it wrong.
How often, on a bright autumnal day,
The Pious People of Pretoria say
"Come, let us hunt the... " Then no more is heard
But Sounds of Strong Men struggling with a word.
Meanwhile the distant Gnu, with grateful eyes,
Observes his opportunity - and flies.

MORAL

Child, if you have a rummy kind of Name,
Remember to be thankful for the same.


Hilaire [Hilary] Belloc
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2008 - 4:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hillary or Barack will become popular names? Unpopular?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 8:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Friday, May 09, 2008 - 4:39 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Is the name "Hillary" relevant? yes Relevant that she spells it with 2 "l"s instead of the more usual Hilary? see below Relevant that she claimed to be named after Edmund Hillary? no
Will more people call their children Hillary?see below Hillary will become more popular than Hilary? ditto Hillary will be considered more a first name than a surname? no Will it be considered more a female name than a male name yes (though as far as I know it's not a male name)? In the US, with 2 l's it's a female name, with one, it's a male name. The male name has been on the way out, & Hillary Clinton as President or even as Democratic nominee will probably finish it off
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Friday, May 09, 2008 - 11:17 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Hilary is a name that (in my country at least) may be given to boys and girls in equal measure. It means simply "cheerful", from the Latin (cf. "hilarious"). see above As I remarked on this very forum a few years ago, well it was said by the bard:

G stands for Gnu, whose weapons of Defence
Are long, sharp, curling Horns, and Common Sense.
To these he adds a Name so short and strong
That even Hardy Boers pronounce it wrong.
How often, on a bright autumnal day,
The Pious People of Pretoria say
"Come, let us hunt the... " Then no more is heard
But Sounds of Strong Men struggling with a word.
Meanwhile the distant Gnu, with grateful eyes,
Observes his opportunity - and flies.

MORAL

Child, if you have a rummy kind of Name,
Remember to be thankful for the same.

Hilaire [Hilary] Belloc
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2008 - 4:22 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Hillary or Barack will become popular names? no Unpopular? see above

**** SPOILER ************
As I said above, In the US, 'Hillary'with 2 l's is a female name, with one, it's a male name. The male name has been on the way out, & Hillary Clinton as President or even as Democratic nominee will probably finish it off. Thanks for sticking with it, everyone, & for solving it, Enjay, & please check out my new puzzle at the bottom of the page
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 8:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Good puzzle...really lateral! I always thought that Hilary was the more usual spelling of the girl's name, and Hillary was more unusual but still a female name, but there we go.
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 8:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks, Enjay!! Pleasae apply your clever lateral mind to my other puzzles (including the brand-new one I've just posted!!)

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