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Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Post Number: 227
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 5:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Nimue's definition of a scrund (I love the concept!) is a verbal miscommunication that remains uncorrected. It occurs to me that images can be similarly misinterpreted. This is the cause of the following scrund.

As a child, I loved airplanes. I once drew a picture of an airplane and showed it to family members. They were surprised and shocked, due to a mistake I had made in the picture. This was due to the combination of something my father had told me, and something I had seen. What was my mistake, and why did I make it?
Biograd (Biograd)
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Post Number: 58
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Posted on Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 8:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was anything other than the airplane in the picture? Relevant?

Was the mistake something that would have violated the laws of physics (i.e. the plane would not have been able to fly if the picture really looked as you drew it)?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Post Number: 228
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Posted on Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 1:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was anything other than the airplane in the picture? No. Relevant? No.

Was the mistake something that would have violated the laws of physics (i.e. the plane would not have been able to fly if the picture really looked as you drew it)? No.
Mimino (Mimino)
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Post Number: 43
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Posted on Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 2:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

did you mishear something your father said?
any word or phrase with double meaning relevant?
did you see an airplane in real life before you drew the picture?
had you been inside an airplane before?
Did your picture show people on, at, or inside the plane?
Did it show the airplane from the side? from above? from below? from the front side? from the back side?
Was it a standard passenger jet liner? a propeller plane? a windglider? a military plane?
Logician (Logician)
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Post Number: 394
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Posted on Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 2:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Had you perhaps taken the concept of aeroplanes being "flying metal birds" a bit too seriously?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Post Number: 229
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Posted on Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 4:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

did you mishear something your father said? No.
any word or phrase with double meaning relevant? No.
did you see an airplane in real life before you drew the picture? Yes.
had you been inside an airplane before? Yes.
Did your picture show people on, at, or inside the plane? No.
Did it show the airplane from the side? This. from above? from below? from the front side? from the back side?
Was it a standard passenger jet liner? a propeller plane? This. a windglider? a military plane? And this.

Had you perhaps taken the concept of aeroplanes being "flying metal birds" a bit too seriously? No.
Logician (Logician)
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Post Number: 399
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Posted on Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 5:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

In relation to what one would normally expect to see in a picture of an aeroplane...had you added something? Not included something? Changed the colour of something? Put it in an unusual location?

Did you believe that the stairs, that lead from the ground to the aeroplane, were a permanent feature?
Mimino (Mimino)
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Post Number: 45
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Posted on Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 5:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So you drew a military propeller plane?
Did you see a plane like this before?
A bi-plane? with open cockpit?
or a transporter plane?
was the mistake you made related to the propeller(s)? to the wings? to the landing gear? hatches? rudder?
did you picture the airplane in the air? on the ground? taking off? landing? crashing into the ground (just in case)?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Post Number: 230
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 6:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

In relation to what one would normally expect to see in a picture of an aeroplane...had you added something? Yes. Not included something? No. So you drew a military propeller plane? Yes.
Did you see a plane like this before? In pictures, yes.
A bi-plane? No. with open cockpit? No.
or a transporter plane? No.
was the mistake you made related to the propeller(s)? No. to the wings? No. to the landing gear? No. hatches? No. rudder? No.
did you picture the airplane in the air? on the ground? taking off? landing? crashing into the ground (just in case)? Location of plane is irrelevant to the puzzle, but it was pictured on the ground. Changed the colour of something? No. Put it in an unusual location? No.

Did you believe that the stairs, that lead from the ground to the aeroplane, were a permanent feature? No.
Biograd (Biograd)
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Post Number: 61
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Posted on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 3:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the added item:
In the front of the plane?
On the tail?
Underneath the plane?
On the top?
Along one side?

Was the added item intended to serve a functional purpose (i.e. not just decoration or marking)? If so, would it be used on the runway? During takeoff? In flight? When landing?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Post Number: 232
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Posted on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 4:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the added item:
In the front of the plane?
On the tail? This.
Underneath the plane?
On the top?
Along one side?

Was the added item intended to serve a functional purpose (i.e. not just decoration or marking)? No, it was a marking. Good question! If so, would it be used on the runway? During takeoff? In flight? When landing?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Post Number: 233
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Posted on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 4:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I should had added:

Along one side? While it is not the 'shocking' item in question, there was another relevant marking here.
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 11:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were you influenced by a war film? or book? By any chance did you draw a swastika on the plane?
Ostap (Ostap)
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Post Number: 57
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Posted on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 12:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did you draw a propeller that looked like a swastika?
Did you have a helicopter in mind when you drew the airplane? with a propeller on the tail?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Post Number: 234
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Posted on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 12:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were you influenced by a war film? or book? Both, but mostly books. By any chance did you draw a swastika on the plane? Why, yes, I did! You're halfway to the answer. Another marking is also relevant.

Did you draw a propeller that looked like a swastika? No.
Did you have a helicopter in mind when you drew the airplane? No. with a propeller on the tail? No.
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Post Number: 1288
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Posted on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 1:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the other marking contradict the swastika? A union jack? stars and stripes?

Were you aware when you drew it that the Swastika identified the plane as German? Did you think that only the germans had planes?

Oh was the plane a Fokker and you drew the word F***er instead (please let that be the answer!!)?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Post Number: 235
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Posted on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 5:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the other marking contradict the swastika? Yes! A union jack? But no. stars and stripes? And no.

Were you aware when you drew it that the Swastika identified the plane as German? Yes. Did you think that only the germans had planes? No, but I knew this particular plane was German.

Oh was the plane a Fokker and you drew the word F***er instead (please let that be the answer!!)? No. Good one, though!
Ostap (Ostap)
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Posted on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 6:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the other mark a red star?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Post Number: 236
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Posted on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 7:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the other mark a red star? No.
Biograd (Biograd)
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Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2008 - 9:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the other marking a date, that you intended to be the year of manufacture of the plane, which was well beyond the end of World War II?

Was part of your scrund that you thought the swastika was a general symbol for Germany (such as part of the German flag) as opposed to the symbol of a particular, and now non-existent, political party?
Liquizt (Liquizt)
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Post Number: 218
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Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2008 - 1:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The thing your father had told you was about WW2? Hitler? Germans? Germany? Planes? America? Americans? Britain? the British? other Allied countries/their people?

The other marking contains letters? numbers? shapes? colours relevant? religious symbology?

Did the other marking in some way imply Hitler/ his beliefs were good/just?

The Swastika is the marking on the tail? on the side? the added marking?
The other marking is the marking on the tail? on the side? the added marking?

Does the plane in question pre-date the war?
Was manufactured during the war? after?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Post Number: 237
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Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2008 - 5:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the other marking a date, that you intended to be the year of manufacture of the plane, which was well beyond the end of World War II? No, but the marking would have indicated a postwar date, and a mistake, as it was not used during the war and the swastika was.

Was part of your scrund that you thought the swastika was a general symbol for Germany (such as part of the German flag) as opposed to the symbol of a particular, and now non-existent, political party? Yes!

The thing your father had told you was about WW2? Yes. Hitler? Germans? Germany? Planes? Yes, German planes. America? Americans? Britain? the British? other Allied countries/their people? Yope.

The other marking contains letters? numbers? shapes? Yes. colours relevant? Yes. religious symbology? Yes.

Did the other marking in some way imply Hitler/ his beliefs were good/just? No.

The Swastika is the marking on the tail? Yes. on the side? the added marking? Yes.
The other marking is the marking on the tail? on the side? Yes. the added marking? Yope -- It could be called an added marking, but was not due to the scrund. The swastika was a marking I should not have added, and was due to a scrund.

Does the plane in question pre-date the war?
Was manufactured during the war? after? All three. I was under the impression, due to the scrund, that the plane had been produced during the war, but this particular variant was produced after it.

These are all good questions, you're almost there!
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2008 - 9:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A cross? Star of David?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Sunday, July 20, 2008 - 2:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A cross? Star of David? This.
Liquizt (Liquizt)
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Posted on Sunday, July 20, 2008 - 4:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the shock that you'd drawn the swastika? drawn it on a plane? drawn it on a german plane? drawn it on that particular model of plane? the combination of the Star of David (representing Jews) with the swastika (representing a political party with strong negative beliefs/relations with Jewish people)?

The thing your father told you was about Jews? Judaism?

The plane was built by Jews? non-Jewish Germans?
Intended for Jewish use? non-Jewish use?

Was colour relevant in that you felt it would help to determine that the symbol was the Star of David?
Is colour still relevant (i.e. other than for determining that the symbol was the Star of David)?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Post Number: 240
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Posted on Sunday, July 20, 2008 - 5:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the shock that you'd drawn the swastika? Yes. drawn it on a plane? No. drawn it on a german plane? No. drawn it on that particular model of plane? No. the combination of the Star of David (representing Jews) with the swastika (representing a political party with strong negative beliefs/relations with Jewish people)? Yes.

The thing your father told you was about Jews? No. Judaism? No.

The plane was built by Jews? No. non-Jewish Germans? No, but irrelevant.
Intended for Jewish use? Yope. non-Jewish use? Yope.

Was colour relevant in that you felt it would help to determine that the symbol was the Star of David? Yes.
Is colour still relevant (i.e. other than for determining that the symbol was the Star of David)? Yes.

Getting ever warmer...
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Sunday, July 20, 2008 - 5:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The thing your father told you was about Jews? Change this to Yope.
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Sunday, July 20, 2008 - 9:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

When you drew the picture, you knew that the swastika was the sign of Germany? But you didn't realise it represented the Nazis? Did you know that the Star of David represented Judaism? Did you know about the Holocaust? Had you been told that there was some connection between the swastika and the Jews, but not that it was a negative connection?

Did you know that some planes had swastikas on them, and that some had stars of David, but you didn't realise that those two symbols would never have appeared on the same plane?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Sunday, July 20, 2008 - 10:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

When you drew the picture, you knew that the swastika was the sign of Germany? Yes. [Did you know] it represented the Nazis? No. Did you know that the Star of David represented Judaism? Yes. Did you know about the Holocaust? Yes. Had you been told that there was some connection between the swastika and the Jews, but not that it was a negative connection? No.

Did you know that some planes had swastikas on them, and that some had stars of David, but you didn't realise that those two symbols would never have appeared on the same plane? Correct. Now, why did I make the mistake in the first place?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 - 10:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think I might have this so here goes:

Are the aeroplane manufacturer "Junkers" relevant? All their designs were named "Junkers Ju" and then a number e.g. Junkers Ju 88. So you confused the letters Ju with the word Jew and probably thought that the planes were owned by or used by the Jews.
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 - 1:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No, they weren't Junkers. Though it was a specific aircraft, and that is relevant, how its name is spelled or spoken aloud is irrelevant for the purposes of this puzzle.
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 - 1:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Darn I was sure I had that.

Was it a Stuka (although that's a Junkers I think)? Messerschmitt? Heinkel? Focke Wulf? That's all the German planes i can think of i'm afraid.
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 - 4:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Messerschmitt. Specifically, the BF 109 fighter.
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Friday, July 25, 2008 - 10:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is some specific knowledge of the plane's design required.? Relevant that it's a fighter not a bomber? Did you think that Schmitt was a jewish name?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Friday, July 25, 2008 - 12:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No to all.
Ostap (Ostap)
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Posted on Friday, July 25, 2008 - 12:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Relevant that aircrafts based on the BF 109 were also used by the Israeli Air Force?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Post Number: 249
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Posted on Friday, July 25, 2008 - 3:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Relevant that aircrafts based on the BF 109 were also used by the Israeli Air Force?

Yes!

*************SPOILER*****************

I should mention, btw, that my family is Jewish. And my father, an aviation engineer, worked for several years in Israel.

I was about eight or nine. We were visiting my grandparents, and I was reading an illustrated book on German planes. My dad casually mentioned that the BF 109 had also been flown by the Israelis. He told me what the markings looked like, and I started drawing. Since my drawing was based on the 109s in the book, all of which had swastikas, I added a swastika to the tail as well as a blue Star of David on the fuselage, since I assumed the planes were ex-German.

My grandparents, of course, were shocked and distressed when I showed them the picture. My dad explained the discrepancy, laughed it off, then pulled me aside and explained that a) surplus vehicles are stripped of markings and painted only with those of their new owners, and b) the Israeli 109s were not German anyway, but crappy postwar versions license-built by the Czechs.

He knew how aircraft are supposed to be marked, and it simply didn't occur to him that I wouldn't. Nor did it occur to me to ask more specifically.

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