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Peter365 (Peter365)
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Post Number: 1322
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Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2008 - 10:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mimino's recent post about the war going on in his homeland reminded me of something i read once.

When i read about the victims I was struck by a irony which to me was a metaphor for the futility of violence
Tobasi (Tobasi)
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Post Number: 838
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Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2008 - 12:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is a particular war relevant? a particular manifestation of violence? a particular country? a particular place? a particular weapon?
Is it a particular group of victims? like civilians? soldiers?
Are you referring to victims: who die? get hurt? get tortured?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Post Number: 1323
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Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2008 - 2:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is a particular war relevant? yes for s.v.v. of war a particular manifestation of violence? could you rephrase a particular country? yes a particular place? well country will do a particular weapon? no
Is it a particular group of victims? yes like civilians? soldiers? soldiers
Are you referring to victims: who die? this get hurt? get tortured?
Tobasi (Tobasi)
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Post Number: 839
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Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2008 - 3:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is a particular battle relevant? a crisis? a conflict? the cold war?
Is only one country relevant? or also the adversary country?
Is the country in the Americas? Europe? Africa? Asia? Oceania?
Did this happen in this century? the 20th? 19th? ...?
Were weapons involved?
Is the type of soldiers relevant: infantry? air force? marine? Is their rank relevant? privates?
Is the way they died relevant? by arms? suicide? by accident?
Is there an exact number of people involved? 1? 2? ...?
Do the soldiers die in their own country? In the country of their enemy?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Username: Peter365

Post Number: 1324
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Posted on Wednesday, August 13, 2008 - 10:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is a particular battle relevant? well more of an incident a crisis? yesisha conflict? Yes the cold war? no
Is only one country relevant? or also the adversary country? this
Is the country in the Americas? Europe? this Africa? Asia? Oceania?
Did this happen in this century? the 20th? this19th? ...?
Were weapons involved? yes but the nature of the weapons is not relevant
Is the type of soldiers relevant:not especially infantry? this although not sure of their status air force? marine? Is their rank relevant? no privates? this is what they were though
Is the way they died relevant? no by arms? this suicide? by accident?
Is there an exact number of people involved? there were many involved in the incident but only 2 are relevant to this puzzle 1? 2? ...?
Do the soldiers die in their own country? no In the country of their enemy? yes
Tobasi (Tobasi)
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Post Number: 840
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Posted on Wednesday, August 13, 2008 - 12:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did this happen during WW1? WW2?
The two countries involved: UK? France? Germany? Poland? Russia? Italy? USA? Japan?
If not in the north? west? south? east? centre? of Europe?
Are both of the involved people soldiers? do they both die? are they from the same country?
So I guess the soldiers did something relevant before they died? something involving: courage? generosity? exasperation? dolefulness? physical abilities?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Username: Peter365

Post Number: 1325
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Posted on Wednesday, August 13, 2008 - 1:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did this happen during WW1? WW2? no to both
The two countries involved: UK? this France? Germany? Poland? Russia? Italy? USA? Japan? no to rest
If not in the north? west? this south? east? centre? of Europe?
Are both of the involved people soldiers? yes do they both die? yes are they from the same country? yes
So I guess the soldiers did something relevant before they died? no something involving: courage? generosity? exasperation? dolefulness? physical abilities? no to all
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Username: Peter365

Post Number: 1328
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Posted on Wednesday, August 13, 2008 - 1:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

BLOOOOPERRRRR

I mistakenly gave the impression that there were two countries who were involved in s.v.v. of war. This is not the case. Uk or britain were involved but their enemy was not a country per se. Sorry about that
Tobasi (Tobasi)
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Post Number: 842
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Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 12:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is religion an issue in this puzzle? the Northern Ireland conflict?
Did this happen before 1910? 1920? ...1990? 2000?
Did something relevant happen to the soldiers? before they died? afterwards?
How did the violence express: in the actions of the soldiers? of other people? of something else?
Were they soldiers of the British Army?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Username: Peter365

Post Number: 1329
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Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 1:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is religion an issue in this puzzle? nothe Northern Ireland conflict? yes
Did this happen before 1910? 1920? ...1990? this 2000?
Did something relevant happen to the soldiers? apart from their deaths no before they died? afterwards? no to both
How did the violence express: in the actions of the soldiers? of other people? yes of something else?
Were they soldiers of the British Army? yes
Tobasi (Tobasi)
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Post Number: 845
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Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 2:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the "Bloody Sunday" relevant?
Who acted violently: other soldiers? the police? demonstrators? civilians? catholics? protestants?
How many: 1? 2?...
So this happened in Northern Ireland? is the exact place relevant?
So the two soldiers were fighting on the side of the protestants?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Username: Peter365

Post Number: 1332
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Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 3:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the "Bloody Sunday" relevant? no
Who acted violently: other soldiers? the police? demonstrators? civilians? catholics? protestants?
How many: 1? 2?... to save you the trouble it was the republican paramilitary group the IRA
So this happened in Northern Ireland? yes is the exact place relevant? no but it's a very well known incident that happened during the troubles
So the two soldiers were fighting on the side of the protestants? without launching into a history lesson the british soldiers presence was to maintain order and prevent an all out civil war between catholic and protestant extremists. They weren't officially fighting anyone nor were they supposed to favour any side however to the catholic or republican paramilitaries the bristish soldiers were the enemy and around 500 were killed during the 30 years of conflict. Remember that there is something specific about these two soldiers that solves this puzzle
Tsoram1970 (Tsoram1970)
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Post Number: 1115
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Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 4:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

As Peter might expect I have worked this one out quite easily.(This is the first I have had a chance to look at it). I refrain from posting a cryptic in case it might lead others in the right direction!
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Username: Peter365

Post Number: 1333
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Posted on Friday, August 15, 2008 - 10:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

As Peter might expect I have worked this one out quite easily.(This is the first I have had a chance to look at it). I refrain from posting a cryptic in case it might lead others in the right direction! Yes I had you down as favourite to solve this
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Username: Peter365

Post Number: 1335
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Posted on Friday, August 15, 2008 - 1:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tom

Do you want to e-mail me your solution to peter.j.mcmahon@aib.ie just to be sure you're right. Thought you'd get it but not that quickly.
Tsoram1970 (Tsoram1970)
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Post Number: 1118
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Posted on Friday, August 15, 2008 - 4:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok...apparently I have the wrong incident so back to square one... to save others barking up that wrong tree... it is not the two soldiers killed after blundering into a funeral cortege of one of Michael Stone's victims.

So... are we in Belfast? Co Antrim? Co Down? Co Derry? Derry itself? CO Armagh? Co Fermanagh? Co Tyrone? Are the names of the soldiers relevant? their religion? their ancestry? their families?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Username: Peter365

Post Number: 1336
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Posted on Saturday, August 16, 2008 - 3:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok...apparently I have the wrong incident so back to square one... to save others barking up that wrong tree... it is not the two soldiers killed after blundering into a funeral cortege of one of Michael Stone's victims.

So... are we in Belfast? Co Antrim? Co Down? this Co Derry? Derry itself? CO Armagh? Co Fermanagh? Co Tyrone? Are the names of the soldiers relevant? yes their religion? no their ancestry? yope their families? yope
Tsoram1970 (Tsoram1970)
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Post Number: 1125
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Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 2:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Newry? Lisburn? Mayobridge? Warrenpoint? Rostrevor?

We are talking "British Army" here ...ie Soldiers from Great Britain as opposed to soldiers of the UDR or TA?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Username: Peter365

Post Number: 1344
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Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 11:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Newry? Lisburn? Mayobridge? Warrenpoint? thisRostrevor?

We are talking "British Army" here ...ie Soldiers from Great Britain as opposed to soldiers of the UDR or TA? correct
Tsoram1970 (Tsoram1970)
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Post Number: 1134
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Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 10:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok gotcha now! Have to admit that I had to look up the names, but I see the irony you mean!

Oh BTW the answer you gave of before 1990 is a slight misleader.... should be before 1980! I was thinking of the wrong period most of the puzzle.
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Username: Peter365

Post Number: 1346
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Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 11:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok gotcha now! Have to admit that I had to look up the names, but I see the irony you mean!

Oh BTW the answer you gave of before 1990 is a slight misleader.... should be before 1980! I was thinking of the wrong period most of the puzzle. I realise that now. I didn't notice the dots meaning that he was listing each decade so I answered yes to 1990 which while technically correct is misleading. Also I've just realised one of the soldiers is a lance corporal although rank is not an issue. As you have it Tom I'll just go ahead and spoil

**************Spoiler*************

On the 27th August 1979 18 british soldiers were killed in an IRA ambush at Narrow Water Castle near Warrenpoint in County Down . The IRA detonated a roadside bomb which killed 7 soldiers who were passing by in a Military convoy. The surviving soldiers took shelter at the gatehouse to the castle but the IRA having predicted that they would do that had concealed another bomb there which killed another 11 soldiers. In a subsequent exchange of fire an English citizen (who was bird watching in the area) was shot dead. This was the army's biggest loss during the Northern Irish troubles and given that 16 of the dead came from the parachute regiment it represented that regiment's worst loss since WWII.

The tragic iriony concerned two of the dead soldiers. Their names were Private Robert England & Lance Corporal Christopher Ireland. I was struck by the notion that both Ireland & England died that day and that given the long history of conflict between the two countries on which the northern irish troubles had their foundation I felt that this summed up nicely the futility of war.

Once final point, on the same day as the Warrenpoint incident the IRA also killed Lord Louis Mountbatten great uncle of Prince Charles while on a fishing trip of the coast of Western Ireland. 3 others died with him. The 27th August 1979 therefore is a landmark day in the northern irish conflict.

There endeth the lesson...

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