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Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 294
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Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 4:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

He was wrong. It did. But when?
Noobdogg (Noobdogg)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 8:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I assume the title refers to the Mcdonald Douglas DC-10... is it's high incident rate relevant?

Was it --> an event that did actually happen? an object that 'did' something? a living creature?

He = H? A? M? Alive? Famous individual?

If a certain period of time is relevant, kindly assume LTPF list and enlighten us?

Glad to finally catch one of your puzzles early Woubit :-)
Usmcfink (Usmcfink)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 1:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the incorrect skeptic a person in the public eye? A politician? Movie star? Prominent figurehead of his industry? Did he make the device that did, or instigate the event that did? Is it even a device or an event?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 295
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Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 5:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I assume the title refers to the Mcdonald Douglas DC-10... yes is its high incident rate relevant? no

Was it an event that did actually happen? this one an object that 'did' something? a living creature?

He = H? A? M? Alive? Famous individual? human adult male, famous, and dead

If a certain period of time is relevant, kindly assume LTPF list and enlighten us? since the question in the puzzle is "when"? I am afraid that the LTPF List of Time Periods is not permitted for the duration of this puzzle

Was the incorrect skeptic FA a person in the public eye? yes A politician? this one Movie star? Prominent figurehead of his industry? Did he make the device that did, or instigate the event that did? no Is it even a device or an event? it is, or was, an event that lasted for a period of time
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 5:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did our hero claim that event X had never happened? Or did he predict that it would never happen in the future?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 296
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Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 5:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did our hero claim that event X had never happened? Or did he predict that it would never happen in the future? this one
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 8:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is aviation actually relevant? Did he make some comment like "Aviation will only be a passing fad?" or that "Man will never build a machine that flies"?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 297
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Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 8:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is aviation actually relevant? no Did he make some comment like "Aviation will only be a passing fad?" or that "Man will never build a machine that flies"? no, but good thinking
Usmcfink (Usmcfink)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 9:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

was this statement made in the 17th century? 18th? 19th? 1900-20? 1920-30? 1930-40? 1940-50? 1950-70? 1970-90? 1990+?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 298
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Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 11:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

was this statement made in the 17th century? 18th? 19th? this one 1900-20? 1920-30? 1930-40? 1940-50? 1950-70? 1970-90? 1990+?
Usmcfink (Usmcfink)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 11:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hmmm, 19th century...anything to do with AC/DC currents? Electricity at all? What else was around that time? Indoor plumbing? Was it early 19th? Mid? Late?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 299
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Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 1:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hmmm, 19th century...anything to do with AC/DC currents? no Electricity at all? no What else was around that time? see the LTPF List of Things Around in the 19th Century. It is quite a long list. Indoor plumbing? no Was it early 19th? Mid? Late? this one, for svv of "late"
Sunshine (Sunshine)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 9:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the event last for seconds? minutes? hours? days? weeks? years? decades? over a hundred years?
Was it concerned with technology? science in any form? people? travel? something in daily use? something consumed?
Was he American? British? European?
Does it no longer happen? Happen but in a different form?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 300
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Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 11:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the event last for seconds? minutes? hours? days? weeks? years? this one decades? over a hundred years?
Was it concerned with technology? no science in any form? no people? yes travel? no something in daily use? noish something consumed? no
Was he American? this one British? European?
Does it no longer happen? yope Happen but in a different form? yope
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 1:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the event a war? famine? pandemic? economic cycle? political agitation? Industrial dispute?

What else was around that time? see the LTPF List of Things Around in the 19th Century. It is quite a long list.... Can we get started on compiling these lists . I volunteer to do the 20th century any other offers :0)
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 2:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the event happen at the time the politician was still alive? did it happen in the 20th century? or just recently?
Is the puzzle statement to be understood in the way that we can only infer that it must have happened in the meanwhile, but we can't tell when?
Was he an US American? (just to get Mr Diaz from the list)
Anything of the following relevant: poetry? time or ways of measuring or determining time? US elections? public debates? donkeys? ice hockey? language(s) and language policy? statistics?
Or maybe, this is an early Christmas puzzle?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 301
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Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 3:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the event a war? famine? pandemic? economic cycle? political agitation? this is closest, but not really all that close Industrial dispute?

Did the event happen at the time the politician was still alive? no did it happen in the 20th century? yes or just recently?
Is the puzzle statement to be understood in the way that we can only infer that it must have happened in the meanwhile, but we can't tell when? no - we can tell when
Was he an US American? yes (just to get Mr Diaz from the list)
Anything of the following relevant: poetry? time or ways of measuring or determining time? US elections? this one, to an extent public debates? donkeys? ice hockey? language(s) and language policy? statistics?
Or maybe, this is an early Christmas puzzle? it is not, and I hope it won't last nearly that long
Haenlomal (Haenlomal)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 9:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi David...long time no read!

Lincoln?

Recent US media circus -- I mean, politics -- relevant?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 11:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Lincoln? indeed

Recent US media circus -- I mean, politics -- relevant? no, not particularly
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 12:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So Lincoln was wrong?

Any of the following relevant? Gettysburg Address? His assassination? Sic Semper Tyrannis? Our American Cousin? Slavery?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 12:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So Lincoln was wrong? he was

Any of the following relevant? Gettysburg Address? this one His assassination? Sic Semper Tyrannis? Our American Cousin? Slavery?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 1:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he miscalculate 4 score and 7 years?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 1:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he miscalculate 4 score and 7 years? not that I can see - the Gettysburg Address was delivered in 1863, which is 87 years after 1776, generally considered to be the date of the creation of the United States of America
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 4:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the relevant prediction:

that the world would not forget what happened at Gettysburg?

that the soldiers would not have died in vain?

that democracy and freedom would prevail? (the last two being more aspirational than predictive)

So I'm guessing that someone, at some time, forgot about Gettysburg altogether. Is this right?

Wild stab: is the internet relevant at all?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 4:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the relevant prediction:

that the world would not forget what happened at Gettysburg? no

that the soldiers would not have died in vain? no

that democracy and freedom would prevail? (the last two being more aspirational than predictive) this is on the right track

So I'm guessing that someone, at some time, forgot about Gettysburg altogether. Is this right? I am sure people have forgotten about Gettysburg, but they're not relevant to this puzzle, I'm afraid

Wild stab: is the internet relevant at all? no
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 8:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just a guess: did "it" happen in several occasions? and was one of them around Christmas 1991?
Usmcfink (Usmcfink)
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Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 11:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The only things that I can find of note that are predictive in the GA are: That the world would quickly forget what was said there, and that [Democracy] would not perish from the earth. Hmm...this may require some more thought.
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 12:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just a guess: did "it" happen in several occasions? not as far as I am aware, but it is not impossible and was one of them around Christmas 1991? nothing relevant to this puzzle happened in 1991 that I know of

The only things that I can find of note that are predictive in the GA are: That the world would quickly forget what was said there, and that [Democracy] would not perish from the earth. Lincoln did not use the word "democracy". If you focus on the words he did use... Hmm...this may require some more thought. ...then you may require less thought
Racoonieboy (Racoonieboy)
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Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 12:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So we have to answer when Lincoln gave the GA speech? Or when something he said couldn't happen did?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 9:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So are we talking here about "government of the people, by the people and for the people" never perishing from the earth (whatever that piece of flannel actually means)? And it's misleading to translate this as "democracy"? Is some double meaning at work here? Did the Sunday People go into liquidation, or some such?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 11:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So we have to answer when Lincoln gave the GA speech? that would hardly be a lateral puzzle - even some graduate students might know the answer, or at least work out how to look it up Or when something he said couldn't happen did? that is the style of the thing precisely

So are we talking here about "government of the people, by the people and for the people" never perishing from the earth (whatever that piece of flannel actually means)? yes, indeed, and it is important to work out what that piece of flannel means in the context of the puzzle (which is more or less what it meant in the context of the Gettysburg Address) And it's misleading to translate this as "democracy"? it is not misleading, but it fails to narrow the context sufficiently Is some double meaning at work here? no Did the Sunday People go into liquidation, or some such? it may have done, but not in order to disprove Lincoln
Biograd (Biograd)
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Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 10:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the distinction of direct vs. indirect (i.e representative) democracy relevant here? state vs. federal government jurisdiction?

Of the three phrases used in the quote, which are relevant (I have given my best interpretation of each in parentheses):
"Of the people" (who is eligible to run for office)
"By the people" (who is entitled to vote and/or be represented)
"For the people" (where the legitimacy of government comes from, philosophically)
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Saturday, November 01, 2008 - 7:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the distinction of direct vs. indirect (i.e representative) democracy relevant here? state vs. federal government jurisdiction? I am not quite sure what this question means, sorry. Suffice to say that the puzzle applies at federal level only.

Of the three phrases used in the quote, which are relevant (I have given my best interpretation of each in parentheses):
"Of the people" (who is eligible to run for office)
"By the people" (who is entitled to vote and/or be represented)
"For the people" (where the legitimacy of government comes from, philosophically) all of them
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Sunday, November 02, 2008 - 10:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Could this be anything to do with Gerald Fords rise to president without actually being elected?

I know others such as LBJ did as well but Ford ascended to the Vice Presidency due to Spiro Agnew's resignation and then the presidency due to Nixon's . So he never appeared on a presidential ballot and was therefore not a government by the people.

Or alternatively anything to do with the confusion over the 25th Amendment following the assassination attempt on Reagan?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Sunday, November 02, 2008 - 10:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Could this be anything to do with Gerald Fords rise to president without actually being elected? it could indeed - well done

I know others such as LBJ did as well but Ford ascended to the Vice Presidency due to Spiro Agnew's resignation and then the presidency due to Nixon's . So he never appeared on a presidential ballot and was therefore not a government by the people. precisely so, but although this is most of the solution, it is not all of it

Or alternatively anything to do with the confusion over the 25th Amendment following the assassination attempt on Reagan? no
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Sunday, November 02, 2008 - 11:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So are we looking for some other aspect of Ford's presidency that defies Lincolns speech? His pardoning of Nixon relevant? His failure to be re-elected? His living to 93?

Or should i be looking for some other president who was not "by the people"?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Monday, November 03, 2008 - 12:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is this just about Ford? (I'd like to hope that "the surface of the earth" isn't just confined to America.) Anything to do with leaders of other nations at that time? Or at any other time?

For instance, we in the UK are currently governed (after a fashion) by an unelected PM whose "elected" predecessor gained 35.3% of the popular vote. If that's democracy I'm a banana. Are UK elections relevant at all? Is Tuesday's presidential election relevant at all?

Perhaps there was a period of time, some time during GF's presidency, when not a single country in the world was run by an elected leader? Or perhaps all the nations of the G7, or the UN security council, or some such?

I know that there was a hung parliament in the UK in 1974, and that in France, Giscard D'Estaing was sworn in some time after Pompidou's death.

Would some period in the spring of 1974 answer the question?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Monday, November 03, 2008 - 11:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So are we looking for some other aspect of Ford's presidency that defies Lincolns speech? yes His pardoning of Nixon relevant? no His failure to be re-elected? no His living to 93? no

Or should i be looking for some other president who was not "by the people"? no, but...

Is this just about Ford? not entirely (I'd like to hope that "the surface of the earth" isn't just confined to America.) when Lincoln expressed the hope that government of the people, by the people, for the people should not perish from the earth, it is safe to assume that he was not in the least concerned about whether or not it perished from, say, Ethiopia, and he would not have been all that bothered about whether or not it perished from, say, Portugal Anything to do with leaders of other nations at that time? no Or at any other time? no

Are UK elections relevant at all? no Is Tuesday's presidential election relevant at all? no, except that it seems to have engendered a spate of puzzles about US Presidents, so I thought I would add mine

Perhaps there was a period of time, some time during GF's presidency, when not a single country in the world was run by an elected leader? perhaps, but if so, I am unable to discover it Or perhaps all the nations of the G7, or the UN security council, or some such? no, just the not particularly good and not especially old US of A

Would some period in the spring of 1974 answer the question? in part
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Monday, November 03, 2008 - 3:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

-Scratching head furiously whilst peeking at Wikipedia article on Ford

Any of these relevant (apologies for sledgehammer approach)
Nelson Rockefeller's appointment as VP? Ford's domestic policies? foreign policies? Vietnam? Cold War? Pro Choice? Betty Ford? other republican politician? Democrat?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Monday, November 03, 2008 - 5:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Any of these relevant (apologies for sledgehammer approach)
Nelson Rockefeller's appointment as VP? this one Ford's domestic policies? foreign policies? Vietnam? Cold War? Pro Choice? Betty Ford? other republican politician? Democrat?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Monday, November 03, 2008 - 6:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So perhaps 1974-77 was the only time in which both president and vice-president were appointed through the 25th Amendment rather than the ballot box?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Monday, November 03, 2008 - 7:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That could be right but wouldn't it always be the case that when a president is elected under the 25th he would have to appoint his replacement as VP and this person would not have appeared on a ballot either.

Could it be that Rockefeller had several campaigns to be the republican presidential nominee and that he had failed. So in 1974 the US had a president who had never been on a presidential ballot and a VP who had been but had not been chosen by the public (on 2 or 3 occasions)
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Monday, November 03, 2008 - 11:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So perhaps 1974-77 was the only time in which both president and vice-president were appointed through the 25th Amendment rather than the ballot box?

That could be right but wouldn't it always be the case that when a president is elected under the 25th he would have to appoint his replacement as VP and this person would not have appeared on a ballot either.

Could it be that Rockefeller had several campaigns to be the republican presidential nominee and that he had failed. So in 1974 the US had a president who had never been on a presidential ballot and a VP who had been but had not been chosen by the public (on 2 or 3 occasions)

All of that is close enough for a

***** SPOILER *****

After Vice President Spiro T. Agnew resigned in 1973, President Nixon appointed Gerald Ford as Vice President. Nixon resigned the following year, which left Ford as President and Ford's appointed Vice President, Nelson Rockefeller, as second in line.

Ford was the fifth U.S. President never to have been elected to that position, and the only one never to have won any national election. For a period of a little over two years, then, the United States was governed by a President and a Vice President neither of whom had been elected by the people.

Of course, this did not mean that democracy had in fact perished from the earth. But this is the LTPF, and a certain amount of licence is (I hope) still permitted to puzzle setters.
Biograd (Biograd)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2008 - 7:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, was it in response to this that the presidency now goes to the speaker of the House of Representatives if both the president and vice president are unable to hold office? Or was that already in effect before this, but doesn't apply in the case of resignation?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2008 - 9:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Nice puzzle woubit.

In response to Biograd and please forgive me if i'm wrong the presidency only passes to the speaker of the house due to the Presidents incapacitation and the V's unavailibilty. It is only a temporary stopgap though and is not a permanent appointment. I suppose he get's the button should the russians try and catch them on the hop.

Anyone interested in this sort of thing should check out reports on the confusion following the assassination attempt on reagan in 1981. The cabinet displayed remarkable ignorance of the constitution. There was a made for TV film starring Richard Dreyfus made about this. I think it was called "The day Reagan was shot" .

I find the history of the US Presidency facinating and am enjoying the spate of puzzles on the topic. In fact my own "Take Two" puzzle is similarly themed.

BTW Woubit are you working on any special puzzle for the upcoming season of goodwill.

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