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Rcs (Rcs)
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Username: Rcs

Post Number: 140
Registered: 9-2008
Posted on Monday, November 03, 2008 - 4:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If they could have done it without killing anybody, they would have. But even they had to kill people to do it, it still had to be done, or else far more lives would have been in danger.
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Post Number: 458
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Monday, November 03, 2008 - 2:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

True story?
Wartime?
Are "they" H/A/M?
Are "they" pacifists?
"They" = 2, 3, 4 or more people? Exact number relevant?
The people killed = Less than 10? Less than 100? Less than 1000? Less than 10,000? Exact number relevant?
Location relevant?
Time period relevant?
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Username: Doctapeppa

Post Number: 684
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Monday, November 03, 2008 - 3:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

World War II
Rcs (Rcs)
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Username: Rcs

Post Number: 142
Registered: 9-2008
Posted on Monday, November 03, 2008 - 7:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

True story? Yes.
Wartime? Yes.
Are "they" H/A/M? Yes.
Are "they" pacifists? No.
"They" = 2, 3, 4 or more people? More than 4. Exact number relevant? No.
The people killed = Less than 10? Less than 100? Less than 1000? Between 100 and 1000 most likely. Less than 10,000? Exact number relevant? No.
Location relevant? Yes.
Time period relevant? Yes.
World War II? YES!
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Username: Doctapeppa

Post Number: 691
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Monday, November 03, 2008 - 7:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Anything to do with liberating people from the Axis powers? Anything to do with utilizing nuclear weapons to prevent having to use troops to invade Japan, thereby saving the lives of countless Americans?
Dlcygnet (Dlcygnet)
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Username: Dlcygnet

Post Number: 1452
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Monday, November 03, 2008 - 9:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sounds like Doctapeppa got it, but just in case...

Anything to do with the Jews? The Germans? The Russians? Axis powers? Ally powers? Discovering the solution to the German codes & message transmission? Bombing plans? Submarines?
Rcs (Rcs)
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Username: Rcs

Post Number: 143
Registered: 9-2008
Posted on Monday, November 03, 2008 - 9:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Anything to do with liberating people from the Axis powers? Yope. Anything to do with utilizing nuclear weapons to prevent having to use troops to invade Japan, thereby saving the lives of countless Americans? No, that's NOT what I was looking for. That would be way too easy. And as I said, fewer than 1000 people were killed, so it couldn't have been the dropping of atom bombs on Japan. Plus, I said "If they could have done it without killing anybody, they would have." The allies COULD have dropped the bombs on uninhabited regions. I put that sentence into the problem statement PRECISELY to exclude that alternate solution. What I'm looking for is far more subtle and a LOT less well-known.

Anything to do with the Jews? No. The Germans? Yes. The Russians? No. Axis powers? Yes. Ally powers? Yes. Discovering the solution to the German codes & message transmission? Bombing plans? Submarines? No to rest.
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Username: Doctapeppa

Post Number: 698
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2008 - 12:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Some sort of attack by the Allies against the Axis Powers? Some sort of attack by the Axis Powers against the Allies?
Rcs (Rcs)
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Username: Rcs

Post Number: 148
Registered: 9-2008
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2008 - 8:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Some sort of attack by the Allies against the Axis Powers? This one. Some sort of attack by the Axis Powers against the Allies?
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Username: Doctapeppa

Post Number: 707
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2008 - 12:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the attack mainly led by the Soviet Union? A different specific nation? Was the main target Germany? A different specific nation?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Username: Jenburdoo

Post Number: 464
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2008 - 3:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Anything to do with a specific attack? On Allied nations under German occupation? Bombing Allied people to destroy Axis materiel? St. Nazaire? Peenemunde?

Was the attack by land, sea or air?
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Username: Doctapeppa

Post Number: 712
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2008 - 6:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would the answer be the same as if the puzzle read as follows:
If they could have done it without killing anybody, they would have. But even though they had to kill people to do it, it still had to be done, or else far more lives would have been in danger.

If not, did I make a FA?
Rcs (Rcs)
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Username: Rcs

Post Number: 150
Registered: 9-2008
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2008 - 9:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the attack mainly led by the Soviet Union? No. A different specific nation? I think just the Allies in general, but I'm not sure. Was the main target Germany? Yes, but indirectly. A different specific nation? Yes, but its purpose was to hurt Germany.

Anything to do with a specific attack? Yes. On Allied nations under German occupation? More like a neutral country under Axis occupation. Bombing Allied people to destroy Axis materiel? Yesish. St. Nazaire? Peenemunde? None of these.

Was the attack by land, sea or air? It was done by land-based forces, but there's a twist (and some possible FA's).

Would the answer be the same as if the puzzle read as follows:
If they could have done it without killing anybody, they would have. But even though they had to kill people to do it, it still had to be done, or else far more lives would have been in danger. Yes, the answer would be the same. People were killed in this attack.
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Username: Doctapeppa

Post Number: 753
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2008 - 9:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Neutral? Is Switzerland involved?
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Username: Doctapeppa

Post Number: 754
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2008 - 10:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did? The? Allies? Kill? Neutral? Civilians?
Did? The? Allies? Kill? Axis? Troops?
Did? The? Allies? Kill? Allied? Civilians?
Did? The? Allies? Kill? Allied? Troops?
Did? The? Axis Powers? Kill? Neutral? Civilians?
Did? The? Axis Powers? Kill? Allied? Troops?
Did? The? Axis Powers? Kill? Allied? Civilians?

Did the "land-based forces" include...
Allied troops? Infantry? Mechanized infantry? Half-tracks? Tanks? Paratroopers? Chuck Norris?

Did the "victim" of the attack have anything to do with Germany? Axis occupation?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Username: Jenburdoo

Post Number: 466
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2008 - 10:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The raid on the heavy-water plant in Norway?
Rcs (Rcs)
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Username: Rcs

Post Number: 151
Registered: 9-2008
Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2008 - 12:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Neutral? Is Switzerland involved? No.

Did? The? Allies? Kill? Neutral? Civilians? This one.
Did? The? Allies? Kill? Axis? Troops?
Did? The? Allies? Kill? Allied? Civilians?
Did? The? Allies? Kill? Allied? Troops?
Did? The? Axis Powers? Kill? Neutral? Civilians?
Did? The? Axis Powers? Kill? Allied? Troops?
Did? The? Axis Powers? Kill? Allied? Civilians?

Did the "land-based forces" include...
Allied troops? Infantry? Mechanized infantry? Half-tracks? Tanks? Paratroopers? Chuck Norris? I don't know for sure, except that Chuck Norris wasn't involved.

Did the "victim" of the attack have anything to do with Germany? Axis occupation? Clarify.

The raid on the heavy-water plant in Norway? YES!!!! But WHICH raid, specifically (there were several, but only one killed hundreds of innocent civilians).
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Username: Doctapeppa

Post Number: 764
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2008 - 12:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Which raid, huh?
Was it:
One of the ones that Chuck Norris was involved in?
The one that didn't kill hundreds of innocent civilians?
The one that killed hundreds of innocent civilians?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Username: Jenburdoo

Post Number: 468
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2008 - 2:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hm. There was the one which succeeded, and there were the ones which failed and got a bunch of civilians shot in reprisals. Relevant?

Oh, wait, wasn't the heavy water on a ship? A passenger vessel? And they put limpet mines on it, waited until it was out on the water, then sank it with its crew and innocent passengers so that it couldn't be recovered?
Rcs (Rcs)
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Username: Rcs

Post Number: 154
Registered: 9-2008
Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2008 - 10:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hm. There was the one which succeeded, and there were the ones which failed and got a bunch of civilians shot in reprisals. Relevant?

Oh, wait, wasn't the heavy water on a ship? A passenger vessel? And they put limpet mines on it, waited until it was out on the water, then sank it with its crew and innocent passengers so that it couldn't be recovered? Yes, you've got it.

**********************SPOILER********************

During World War II, Nazi Germany imported large quantities of heavy water (i.e. water containing deuterium instead of regular hydrogen) from a plant in Norway (a neutral country occupied by Axis forces for most of the war) for use in its atom bomb project (it was a moderator used in reactors to produce fissile plutonium, as I recall).

The Allies, fearing that their own nuclear program was lagging behind Germany's (which, with hindsight, it probably wasn't), decided to go all out to sabotage Germany's program, and the heavy water was the weak link. They bombed the Norwegian factory several times, but each time the Nazis managed to get it restarted quickly. Therefore, the Allies (aided by Norwegian resistance forces) resorted to a final, desperate measure to interrupt the shipment of heavy water back to Germany.

The one place that was possible was at a spot in Norway where the heavy water had to cross a lake on a ferry (everywhere else the shipment was too well protected). So they placed bombs on the ferry and sank it, despite the fact that the ferry was also a passenger ferry, and many innocent civilians died.

Although later evidence now suggests that Germany's nuclear program was not as far along as the Allies believed (and therefore, the sinking of the ferry may not have been necessary), at the time, it was feared that without the sabotage of the heavy water shipment, Hitler's Germany might have won the nuclear race, and millions more lives might have been in danger.


Thanks for playing! I'll try to think of another puzzle, but it might be a little while.

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