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Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Post Number: 553
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Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2008 - 4:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

She killed her rescuers. Explain.
D_gordon (D_gordon)
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Post Number: 111
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Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2008 - 7:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

She = H? A? F?

Did she kill them in the sense that the rescuers ceased to live?

Did she intend to kill them?

Rescuers = H? A?

Shot in the dark: is hypothermia relevant? Paradoxical undressing?
Rubberduck (Rubberduck)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 4:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did she mistake her rescuers for something or someone else? Was she aware that she killed them? Did she do so on purpose?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 12:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

She = H? A? F? None of the above.

Did she kill them in the sense that the rescuers ceased to live? Yes.

Did she intend to kill them? No.

Rescuers = H? A? Yes.

Shot in the dark: is hypothermia relevant? No. Paradoxical undressing? No.

Did she mistake her rescuers for something or someone else? No. Was she aware that she killed them?
No. Did she do so on purpose? No.
D_gordon (D_gordon)
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Post Number: 115
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Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 3:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Emailed an attempt at a solution.
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 242
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Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 7:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Radiation relevant?
Racoonieboy (Racoonieboy)
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Post Number: 72
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Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 10:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is she a lion?
Although I only got this cause she's not HUMAN.
Racoonieboy (Racoonieboy)
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Post Number: 73
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Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 10:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Or a ship?
They are usually called she's.
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Post Number: 556
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Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 1:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

D_Gordon mailed me:

Is "she" a sunken ship Yope, and the rescuers drowned trying to raise her? No, though raising is involved.

Radiation relevant? No.

Is she a lion? No.

Or a ship? Yes.
Racoonieboy (Racoonieboy)
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Post Number: 77
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Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 4:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is she sinking?
Rcs (Rcs)
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Post Number: 286
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Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 6:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Titanic relevant? Lusitania? Some other famous shipwreck?

Are we even talking about a ship that travels on water? Or an airship? Spaceship? Space Shuttle Challenger?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Post Number: 557
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Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 1:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is she sinking? No.

Titanic relevant? No. Lusitania? No. Some other famous shipwreck? Except to specialists, no.

Are we even talking about a ship that travels on water? Yes. Or an airship? No. Spaceship? No. Space Shuttle Challenger? No.
Evt1 (Evt1)
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Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 11:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Raise as in lift or communication?

Warship? Submarine? Passenger vessel? Commercial?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Post Number: 559
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Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 11:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Raise as in lift or communication? As in lifting from a seabed. Welcome to the forum, by the way.

Warship? This. Submarine? And this. Passenger vessel? Commercial?
D_gordon (D_gordon)
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Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 4:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were the rescuers killed by an explosion?
D_gordon (D_gordon)
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Post Number: 134
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Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 5:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were the rescuers killed by an explosion?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 5:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were the rescuers killed by an explosion? Yes, indirectly.
Rubberduck (Rubberduck)
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Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 9:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were there explosives on the ship? Did something on the ship cause the explosion? Or was it something else that the rescuers were doing in trying to raise the ship that caused an explosion? In other words were the rescuers using something that caused the explosion?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Post Number: 563
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Posted on Monday, December 15, 2008 - 2:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were there explosives on the ship? Well, it's a military submarine, so yes. Did something on the ship cause the explosion? You could say that, yes. Or was it something else that the rescuers were doing in trying to raise the ship that caused an explosion? No. In other words were the rescuers using something that caused the explosion? No, and false assumption.
Kaygee (Kaygee)
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Post Number: 55
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Posted on Monday, December 15, 2008 - 3:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Could "an explosion" be better explained as "the normal firing of weapons"?
Was there a chain of events that led to the deaths?
Were there 2 ships: a warship AND a submarine? Or just one submarine?
Slameye (Slameye)
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Post Number: 58
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Posted on Monday, December 15, 2008 - 12:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is (was) the submarine
Russian?
American?
British?
German?
Japanese?
from another country?
Is this FYOI or real?
a nuclear (propulsion)submarine?
a nuclear (weapons) submarine?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Monday, December 15, 2008 - 3:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Could "an explosion" be better explained as "the normal firing of weapons"? Yes.
Was there a chain of events that led to the deaths? Yes.
Were there 2 ships: a warship AND a submarine? Or just one submarine? Multiple ships are involved, both surface and submarine, all warships.

Is (was) the submarine
Russian?
American? This.
British?
German?
Japanese?
from another country?
Is this FYOI or real? True story, with a little irrelevant fiddliness.
a nuclear (propulsion)submarine? No.
a nuclear (weapons) submarine? No.
Rcs (Rcs)
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Post Number: 294
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Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 4:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did this happen during a war? If so, insert LTPF list of American wars.
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Post Number: 568
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Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 2:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did this happen during a war? Yes, World War II. The chain of events began before the war started, however.
Kaygee (Kaygee)
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Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2008 - 10:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is "she" a submarine? Was the submarine being raised from the seabed? Or a damaged ship? or something else?
Were the Rescuers on-board a vessel that was being raised? Were they on-board a nearby vessel? Were they swimming in the water?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2008 - 1:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is "she" a submarine? Yes. Was the submarine being raised from the seabed? At one point in the chain of events, yes. Or a damaged ship? Yes, at the same point. or something else?
Were the Rescuers on-board a vessel that was being raised? No. Were they on-board a nearby vessel? Yes. Were they swimming in the water? No.
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2008 - 1:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Waitasec, I think I misread that. The submarine was damaged, and was raised from the seabed.
Kaygee (Kaygee)
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Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 1:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the sub's weapons fire? Scoring a direct hit on the rescuers vessel?
In relation to the nationality of the sub, were the rescuers members of the enemy's military? Allies military? Same country's military? or maybe Civilians?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 1:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the sub's weapons fire? Yes. Scoring a direct hit on the rescuers vessel? Yope.
In relation to the nationality of the sub, were the rescuers members of the enemy's military? Allies military? Same country's military? This. or maybe Civilians? This too, but not involved in the puzzle. The rescuers who were killed were military.
D_gordon (D_gordon)
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Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 9:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the rescuers' vessel sink as a direct result of the firing of the sub's weapons?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 10:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the rescuers' vessel sink as a direct result of the firing of the sub's weapons? Yes. But look out for a false assumption! (hence the yope.)
Kaygee (Kaygee)
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Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 11:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So the subs weapons fired - but not DIRECTLY causing the rescue vessel to sink? Is this where the chain-reaction of events come in?

Prior to this event, had the submarine been on the seabed for several days? several months? several years?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 11:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So the subs weapons fired Correct - but not DIRECTLY causing the rescue vessel to sink? Correct. Is this where the chain-reaction of events come in? The firing comes near the end of the chain of events. I would not call it a chain reaction, however.

Prior to this event, had the submarine been on the seabed for several days? several months? This. several years?
Kaygee (Kaygee)
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Posted on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 3:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the sub's weapons fire unexepectedly?
Were the weapons mechanical-as opposed to computerized?
Were there any people on/in the submarine during this event?
Was there any enemy presence near this event?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 12:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the sub's weapons fire unexepectedly? No.
Were the weapons mechanical-as opposed to computerized? A mechanical, analog computer was used to aim the weapons.
Were there any people on/in the submarine during this event? Yes.
Was there any enemy presence near this event? Yes.
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 2:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hint: There is a gap between the rescue, and the death of the rescuers. They are two different events.
Oisin (Oisin)
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Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 1:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the submarine rescued at an earlier pre-war date, perhaps by a group including non-US personnel, and members of that group were later killed by an attack from that same submarine?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 2:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the submarine rescued at an earlier pre-war date, Yes. perhaps by a group Yes. including non-US personnel No., and members of that group were later killed by an attack from that same submarine? Yes.
Oisin (Oisin)
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Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 3:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the vessel that was sunk, on which the rescuers were killed, deliberately targeted by the submarine (mistaken identity)? or was it hit by a misdirected torpedo?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 12:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the vessel that was sunk, on which the rescuers were killed, deliberately targeted by the submarine Yes. (mistaken identity) No.? or was it hit by a misdirected torpedo? No.
Oisin (Oisin)
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Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 10:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

...just checking to make sure I've understood correctly...
The submarine was a US built submarine?
The ship that it targeted in the fatal incident was a US ship?

Had the submarine changed ownership in the intervening period?
At the time of the fatal incident, was the submarine crewed by [insert LTPF list of nationalities]?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 10:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The submarine was a US built submarine? Yes.
The ship that it targeted in the fatal incident was a US ship? No.

Had the submarine changed ownership in the intervening period? No.
At the time of the fatal incident, was the submarine crewed by [insert LTPF list of nationalities]? Americans.
Oisin (Oisin)
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Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 11:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

OK.
At the time of the fatal incident, was the vessel that was attacked German? Japanese? [insert LTPF list of nationalities if neither of those]?
Were the rescuers on board that vessel voluntarily? as prisoners of war?
Had their own ship been sunk previously? They were rescued by their attackers, and subsequently killed in the submarine attack?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 12:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

OK.
At the time of the fatal incident, was the vessel that was attacked German? Japanese? This.[insert LTPF list of nationalities if neither of those]?
Were the rescuers on board that vessel voluntarily? No. as prisoners of war? Yes.
Had their own ship been sunk previously? Yes. They were rescued by their attackers, and subsequently killed in the submarine attack? Correct.

****Spoiler****

In 1939, the submarine USS Squalus sank in an accident. The survivors were located and rescued with the help of her sister sub, the USS Sculpin. The Squalus was raised and renamed the USS Sailfish.

In late 1943, the Sculpin was sunk by the Japanese. Half her survivors were put aboard the aircraft carrier Chuyo. Which was sunk shortly thereafter -- by the Sailfish.

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