| Author | Message | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 3987 Registered: 8-2001 |
People often say, "That was taken out of context" when trying to explain away outrageous remarks that are attributed to them. But when someone accused Zelia of racism, she could reasonably reply that what she said was taken out of context. How come?? | ||
| Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
New member Username: Doctapeppa Post Number: 1657 Registered: 12-2004 |
Was she quoted as saying, "I hate whites" when the context was "I love Sammy White. If I told you that I hate White's auto repair shop, it would certainly be an example of verbal irony."? | ||
| Buzzard (Buzzard)
New member Username: Buzzard Post Number: 1022 Registered: 6-2003 |
Was Zelia's racist-sounding remark interpreted as proclaiming the superiority of one particular race? proclaiming the inferiority of one particular race? proclaiming a belief in a racial stereotype (e.g., "All East Asians are good at math and play the violin")? Is Zelia's race relevant? Is anything else about Zelia relevant, other than what she said and the context in which she said it? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 3992 Registered: 8-2001 |
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa) New member Username: Doctapeppa Post Number: 1657 Registered: 12-2004 Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 9:13 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Was she quoted as saying, "I hate whites" when the context was "I love Sammy White. If I told you that I hate White's auto repair shop, it would certainly be an example of verbal irony."? No, she was really talking about a race Buzzard (Buzzard) New member Username: Buzzard Post Number: 1022 Registered: 6-2003 Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 9:53 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Was Zelia's racist-sounding remark interpreted as proclaiming the superiority of one particular race? no proclaiming the inferiority of one particular race? yesproclaiming a belief in a racial stereotype yes(e.g., "All East Asians are good at math and play the violin")?Not that one--it was a negative stereotype Is Zelia's race relevant? No, except that she doesn't belong to whatever race she's referring to in the remark Is anything else about Zelia relevant, other than what she said and the context in which she said it see previous answer--that's all that's relevant | ||
| Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
New member Username: Doctapeppa Post Number: 1658 Registered: 12-2004 |
Would a reasonable person believe that the stereotype might be true? Might a reasonable person, knowing the context of her statement, have sufficient grounds for doubting that Zelia had racial prejudices (at least consciously)? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 3994 Registered: 8-2001 |
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa) New member Username: Doctapeppa Post Number: 1658 Registered: 12-2004 Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 10:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Would a reasonable person believe that the stereotype might be true? no Might a reasonable person, knowing the context of her statement, have sufficient grounds for doubting that Zelia had racial prejudices (at least consciously)?yes | ||
| Buzzard (Buzzard)
New member Username: Buzzard Post Number: 1025 Registered: 6-2003 |
Was Zelia talking about whites? blacks? Hispanics? Asians? a subgroup of any of those? some other race not mentioned? Was Zelia talking about the race in general? about all members of the race? about a large subset of members of the race? about a few specific people of the race? about one specific person of the race? | ||
| Buzzard (Buzzard)
New member Username: Buzzard Post Number: 1026 Registered: 6-2003 |
(To clarify the above questions, I'm asking about Zelia's remark as she actually intended it, not as it was taken out of context.) Is Zelia a real person? Is this a true story? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 3998 Registered: 8-2001 |
Buzzard (Buzzard) New member Username: Buzzard Post Number: 1025 Registered: 6-2003 Posted on Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 8:51 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Was Zelia talking about whites? blacks? Hispanics? Asians? a subgroup of any of those? some other race not mentioned? It could work for any race. For convenience let's say blacks, because anti-black racism is probably still the commonest kind in America. Was Zelia talking about the race in general? yes about all members of the race? about a large subset of members of the race? about a few specific people of the race? about one specific person of the race? all or most Buzzard (Buzzard) New member Username: Buzzard Post Number: 1026 Registered: 6-2003 Posted on Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 9:02 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) (To clarify the above questions, I'm asking about Zelia's remark as she actually intended it, not as it was taken out of context.) Is Zelia a real person? no Is this a true story? No, but it's something that could easily happen. | ||
| Buzzard (Buzzard)
New member Username: Buzzard Post Number: 1027 Registered: 6-2003 |
So she was talking about a stereotype (i.e., something more specific than "I hate blacks"), but the puzzle could work for any race? Would the stereotype be different for different races? Or is it a specific stereotype that's applied to different races in different contexts? Or could it be any negative stereotype? Zelia's statement made people think that she believed in the stereotype? Did she intend to make people think that she believed in the stereotype? Did she intend to refer to her own beliefs about the stereotype? to other people's beliefs? Did she intend to quote somebody? make an allusion to something? make a joke? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 4009 Registered: 8-2001 |
Buzzard (Buzzard) New member Username: Buzzard Post Number: 1027 Registered: 6-2003 Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 6:28 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) So she was talking about a stereotype (i.e., something more specific than "I hate blacks"), but the puzzle could work for any race?yes| Would the stereotype be different for different races? that would help but not be necassaryOr is it a specific stereotype that's applied to different races in different contexts? no Or could it be any negative stereotype? yesish Zelia's statement made people think that she believed in the stereotype? yes Did she intend to make people think that she believed in the stereotype? no Did she intend to refer to her own beliefs about the stereotype? no to other people's beliefs? no Did she intend to quote somebody? no make an allusion to something? no make a joke? yope | ||
| Buzzard (Buzzard)
New member Username: Buzzard Post Number: 1032 Registered: 6-2003 |
Is it relevant whether the stereotype has a grain of truth to it? whether it describes an attribute that really is more common among black people than among other races? whether it describes an attribute that at least some black people really have? Is it relevant whether the stereotype is widely believed? whether it is believed at all? If it were something totally false and outrageous (e.g., "Black people eat babies for breakfast") would the puzzle still work? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 4011 Registered: 8-2001 |
Buzzard (Buzzard) New member Username: Buzzard Post Number: 1032 Registered: 6-2003 Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 3:42 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Is it relevant whether the stereotype has a grain of truth to it? see later answers whether it describes an attribute that really is more common among black people than among other races? no whether it describes an attribute that at least some black people really have? yes Is it relevant whether the stereotype is widely believed? yes whether it is believed at all? yes If it were something totally false and outrageous (e.g., "Black people eat babies for breakfast") would the puzzle still work? no | ||
| Buzzard (Buzzard)
New member Username: Buzzard Post Number: 1034 Registered: 6-2003 |
Are names relevant? | ||
| Oisin (Oisin)
New member Username: Oisin Post Number: 79 Registered: 12-2008 |
Is Zelia's profession relevant? Is her activity at the time of making the remark relevant (e.g rehearsing a part for amateur dramatics)? Is Zelia addressing her remark to anyone? If so, is the number relavant? Is the location in which she makes the remark relevant? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 4014 Registered: 8-2001 |
Buzzard (Buzzard) New member Username: Buzzard Post Number: 1034 Registered: 6-2003 Posted on Friday, January 09, 2009 - 2:16 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Are names relevant? No--surprise!! Oisin (Oisin) New member Username: Oisin Post Number: 79 Registered: 12-2008 Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2009 - 7:00 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Is Zelia's profession relevant? noIs her activity at the time of making the remark relevant (e.g rehearsing a part for amateur dramatics)? no Is Zelia addressing her remark to anyone? yes If so, is the number relavant? no Is the location in which she makes the remark relevant? no | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 4015 Registered: 8-2001 |
Buzzard (Buzzard) New member Username: Buzzard Post Number: 1034 Registered: 6-2003 Posted on Friday, January 09, 2009 - 2:16 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Are names relevant? No--surprise!! Oisin (Oisin) New member Username: Oisin Post Number: 79 Registered: 12-2008 Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2009 - 7:00 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Is Zelia's profession relevant? noIs her activity at the time of making the remark relevant (e.g rehearsing a part for amateur dramatics)? no Is Zelia addressing her remark to anyone? yes If so, is the number relavant? no Is the location in which she makes the remark relevant? no | ||
| Buzzard (Buzzard)
New member Username: Buzzard Post Number: 1037 Registered: 6-2003 |
The context that is necessary to understand that Zelia's racist-sounding remark is not really racist: Does it include something she said before? or after? the remark? Does it include anything about her tone of voice? or facial expression? Does it include details of the situation she was describing? Does it include details of the setting in which she made the remark (such as who she was addressing)? She was yopeishly trying to make a joke: about race? about racism? about people who believe the stereotype? about black people who conform to the stereotype? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 4029 Registered: 8-2001 |
Buzzard (Buzzard) New member Username: Buzzard Post Number: 1037 Registered: 6-2003 Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2009 - 7:08 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) The context that is necessary to understand that Zelia's racist-sounding remark is not really racist: Does it include something she said before? no or after? yesthe remark? Does it include anything about her tone of voice? no or facial expression? Does it include details of the situation she was describing? Does it include details of the setting in which she made the remark (such as who she was addressing)? no She was yopeishly trying to make a joke: about race? no about racism? noabout people who believe the stereotype? no about black people who conform to the stereotype? no. BLOOOOOPERRRRRALERTTTTTTTTTTTTT: I probably should have answered 'noish' to the question of whetrher she was trying to make a joke | ||
| Buzzard (Buzzard)
New member Username: Buzzard Post Number: 1042 Registered: 6-2003 |
Are there any more relevant qualities of the stereotype that we need to discover? Or could it be any negative stereotype about a particular race that is widely believed and describes an attribute of at least some members of that race? Was Zelia's racist-sounding remark merely a statemeent of the stereotype (e.g. "Black people are all criminals")? Or was it more complicated than that? Did Zelia make her racist-sounding remark in order to lull racists into agreeing with her? And in the next sentence, she pointed out that anyone who agreed with the previous remark is, in fact, racist? (E.g., "Black people are all criminals. If you believe that, you've been listening to too much right-wing talk radio, and you should have a look at some actual crime statistics.") | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 4048 Registered: 8-2001 |
Buzzard (Buzzard) New member Username: Buzzard Post Number: 1042 Registered: 6-2003 Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2009 - 6:45 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Are there any more relevant qualities of the stereotype that we need to discover? yesOr could it be any negative stereotype about a particular race that is widely believed and describes an attribute of at least some members of that race? no Was Zelia's racist-sounding remark merely a statemeent of the stereotype (e.g. "Black people are all criminals")? Or was it more complicated than that? yesish--more like "All [or most] black people are. . ." Did Zelia make her racist-sounding remark in order to lull racists into agreeing with her? no And in the next sentence, she pointed out that anyone who agreed with the previous remark is, in fact, racist? no(E.g., "Black people are all criminals. If you believe that, you've been listening to too much right-wing talk radio, and you should have a look at some actual crime statistics.") | ||
| Bolapara (Bolapara)
New member Username: Bolapara Post Number: 55 Registered: 12-2008 |
All black people are black? Forgetting that some are albinos and that few people actually have skin color the color of their race (white, yellow, red, black)? Is her comment in regards to behavior? body type? hair style? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 4062 Registered: 8-2001 |
Bolapara (Bolapara) New member Username: Bolapara Post Number: 55 Registered: 12-2008 Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2009 - 2:59 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) All black people are black?no Forgetting that some are albinos and that few people actually have skin color the color of their race (white, yellow, red, black)? no Is her comment in regards to behavior? yope body type? no hair style? no | ||
| Bolapara (Bolapara)
New member Username: Bolapara Post Number: 74 Registered: 12-2008 |
Black people are arrested for the most crimes in this city? Makeing her comment based on the statistics that show she is right? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 4063 Registered: 8-2001 |
Bolapara (Bolapara) New member Username: Bolapara Post Number: 74 Registered: 12-2008 Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 8:32 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Black people are arrested for the most crimes in this city? Makeing her comment based on the statistics that show she is right? no | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 4065 Registered: 8-2001 |
HINT: Some racial stereotypes would not work for this puzzle. Find out which ones & why. | ||
| Buzzard (Buzzard)
New member Username: Buzzard Post Number: 1048 Registered: 6-2003 |
Which of the following stereotypes would work: "Black people are stupid"? "Black people are lazy"? "Black people are inclined to commit violence"? "Black people are inclined to steal"? "Black people are inclined to use drugs"? "Black people are inclined to deal drugs"? "Black people are racist against white people"? "Black people are inclined to have children out of wedlock"? "Black people don't raise their children properly"? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 4068 Registered: 8-2001 |
Buzzard (Buzzard) New member Username: Buzzard Post Number: 1048 Registered: 6-2003 Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2009 - 9:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Which of the following stereotypes would work: "Black people are stupid"?Yes. In fact, that was the remark I had in mind. "Black people are lazy"? yes "Black people are inclined to commit violence"? yes "Black people are inclined to steal"? yes "Black people are inclined to use drugs"? no "Black people are inclined to deal drugs"? no "Black people are racist against white people"? no "Black people are inclined to have children out of wedlock"?noish "Black people don't raise their children properly"? yes. In fact, this would work even better than "Black people are atupid." | ||
| Buzzard (Buzzard)
New member Username: Buzzard Post Number: 1049 Registered: 6-2003 |
Supposing that she said "Black people are stupid," does the context-giving remark deal with: black people? non-black people? a more specific group of people? intelligence? stupidity? a specific instance or type of intelligence/stupidity? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 4070 Registered: 8-2001 |
Buzzard (Buzzard) New member Username: Buzzard Post Number: 1049 Registered: 6-2003 Posted on Friday, January 23, 2009 - 9:38 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Supposing that she said "Black people are stupid," does the context-giving remark deal with: black people? no non-black people? yes a more specific group of people? yope intelligence? see next answer stupidity? yes a specific instance or type of intelligence/stupidity? no | ||
| Buzzard (Buzzard)
New member Username: Buzzard Post Number: 1050 Registered: 6-2003 |
Was it a statement to the effect that other people are stupid too? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 4071 Registered: 8-2001 |
Buzzard (Buzzard) New member Username: Buzzard Post Number: 1050 Registered: 6-2003 Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2009 - 12:59 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Was it a statement to the effect that other people are stupid too? yes ************* SPOILER ************** When Zelia complains about 2 of her co-workers, first saying, "Frank is stupid" & then "Georgette is stupid," Tom, knowing that F & G are both black, asks, "Do you think black people are stupid?" "Yes," says Zelia, " I think most black people are stupid." Lyndell, walking by just in time to overhear that sentence, immediately writes Zelia off as a racist because she doesn't stick around to hear Zelia add, "I think most white people are stupid. I think most people are stupid."Believe it or not, this sort of oversight actually occurs in social science questionnaires designed to measure prejudice, e.g., When respondants are asked to agree or disagree with such statements as "Blacks would rather be on welfare than work" & are not asked whether they think this is more true of blacks that of other races. Thanks for solving it, Buzzard. Guess where my new puzzle is. | ||
| Buzzard (Buzzard)
New member Username: Buzzard Post Number: 1052 Registered: 6-2003 |
It seems so obvious in retrospect, probably because I've known people like Zelia. Thanks for the puzzle. |
