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Nimue (Nimue)
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Post Number: 3987
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Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 9:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

People often say, "That was taken out of context" when trying to explain away outrageous remarks that are attributed to them. But when someone accused Zelia of racism, she could reasonably reply that what she said was taken out of context. How come??
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 9:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was she quoted as saying, "I hate whites" when the context was "I love Sammy White. If I told you that I hate White's auto repair shop, it would certainly be an example of verbal irony."?
Buzzard (Buzzard)
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Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 9:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Zelia's racist-sounding remark interpreted as proclaiming the superiority of one particular race? proclaiming the inferiority of one particular race? proclaiming a belief in a racial stereotype (e.g., "All East Asians are good at math and play the violin")?

Is Zelia's race relevant? Is anything else about Zelia relevant, other than what she said and the context in which she said it?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 10:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 9:13 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Was she quoted as saying, "I hate whites" when the context was "I love Sammy White. If I told you that I hate White's auto repair shop, it would certainly be an example of verbal irony."? No, she was really talking about a race
Buzzard (Buzzard)
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Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 9:53 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Was Zelia's racist-sounding remark interpreted as proclaiming the superiority of one particular race? no proclaiming the inferiority of one particular race? yesproclaiming a belief in a racial stereotype yes(e.g., "All East Asians are good at math and play the violin")?Not that one--it was a negative stereotype

Is Zelia's race relevant? No, except that she doesn't belong to whatever race she's referring to in the remark Is anything else about Zelia relevant, other than what she said and the context in which she said it see previous answer--that's all that's relevant
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Post Number: 1658
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Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 10:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would a reasonable person believe that the stereotype might be true? Might a reasonable person, knowing the context of her statement, have sufficient grounds for doubting that Zelia had racial prejudices (at least consciously)?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 11:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 10:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Would a reasonable person believe that the stereotype might be true? no Might a reasonable person, knowing the context of her statement, have sufficient grounds for doubting that Zelia had racial prejudices (at least consciously)?yes
Buzzard (Buzzard)
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Posted on Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 8:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Zelia talking about whites? blacks? Hispanics? Asians? a subgroup of any of those? some other race not mentioned?

Was Zelia talking about the race in general? about all members of the race? about a large subset of members of the race? about a few specific people of the race? about one specific person of the race?
Buzzard (Buzzard)
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Posted on Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 9:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

(To clarify the above questions, I'm asking about Zelia's remark as she actually intended it, not as it was taken out of context.)

Is Zelia a real person? Is this a true story?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 7:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Buzzard (Buzzard)
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Posted on Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 8:51 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Was Zelia talking about whites? blacks? Hispanics? Asians? a subgroup of any of those? some other race not mentioned? It could work for any race. For convenience let's say blacks, because anti-black racism is probably still the commonest kind in America.

Was Zelia talking about the race in general? yes about all members of the race? about a large subset of members of the race? about a few specific people of the race? about one specific person of the race? all or most
Buzzard (Buzzard)
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Posted on Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 9:02 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
(To clarify the above questions, I'm asking about Zelia's remark as she actually intended it, not as it was taken out of context.)

Is Zelia a real person? no Is this a true story? No, but it's something that could easily happen.
Buzzard (Buzzard)
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Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 6:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So she was talking about a stereotype (i.e., something more specific than "I hate blacks"), but the puzzle could work for any race? Would the stereotype be different for different races? Or is it a specific stereotype that's applied to different races in different contexts? Or could it be any negative stereotype?

Zelia's statement made people think that she believed in the stereotype? Did she intend to make people think that she believed in the stereotype? Did she intend to refer to her own beliefs about the stereotype? to other people's beliefs? Did she intend to quote somebody? make an allusion to something? make a joke?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 1:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Buzzard (Buzzard)
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Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 6:28 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
So she was talking about a stereotype (i.e., something more specific than "I hate blacks"), but the puzzle could work for any race?yes| Would the stereotype be different for different races? that would help but not be necassaryOr is it a specific stereotype that's applied to different races in different contexts? no Or could it be any negative stereotype? yesish

Zelia's statement made people think that she believed in the stereotype? yes Did she intend to make people think that she believed in the stereotype? no Did she intend to refer to her own beliefs about the stereotype? no to other people's beliefs? no Did she intend to quote somebody? no make an allusion to something? no make a joke? yope
Buzzard (Buzzard)
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Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 3:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it relevant whether the stereotype has a grain of truth to it? whether it describes an attribute that really is more common among black people than among other races? whether it describes an attribute that at least some black people really have? Is it relevant whether the stereotype is widely believed? whether it is believed at all? If it were something totally false and outrageous (e.g., "Black people eat babies for breakfast") would the puzzle still work?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Thursday, January 08, 2009 - 10:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Buzzard (Buzzard)
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Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 3:42 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Is it relevant whether the stereotype has a grain of truth to it? see later answers whether it describes an attribute that really is more common among black people than among other races? no whether it describes an attribute that at least some black people really have? yes Is it relevant whether the stereotype is widely believed? yes whether it is believed at all? yes If it were something totally false and outrageous (e.g., "Black people eat babies for breakfast") would the puzzle still work? no
Buzzard (Buzzard)
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Posted on Friday, January 09, 2009 - 2:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are names relevant?
Oisin (Oisin)
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Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2009 - 7:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is Zelia's profession relevant? Is her activity at the time of making the remark relevant (e.g rehearsing a part for amateur dramatics)? Is Zelia addressing her remark to anyone? If so, is the number relavant? Is the location in which she makes the remark relevant?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2009 - 7:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Buzzard (Buzzard)
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Posted on Friday, January 09, 2009 - 2:16 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Are names relevant? No--surprise!!
Oisin (Oisin)
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Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2009 - 7:00 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Is Zelia's profession relevant? noIs her activity at the time of making the remark relevant (e.g rehearsing a part for amateur dramatics)? no Is Zelia addressing her remark to anyone? yes If so, is the number relavant? no Is the location in which she makes the remark relevant? no
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2009 - 7:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Buzzard (Buzzard)
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Posted on Friday, January 09, 2009 - 2:16 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Are names relevant? No--surprise!!
Oisin (Oisin)
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Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2009 - 7:00 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Is Zelia's profession relevant? noIs her activity at the time of making the remark relevant (e.g rehearsing a part for amateur dramatics)? no Is Zelia addressing her remark to anyone? yes If so, is the number relavant? no Is the location in which she makes the remark relevant? no
Buzzard (Buzzard)
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Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2009 - 7:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The context that is necessary to understand that Zelia's racist-sounding remark is not really racist: Does it include something she said before? or after? the remark? Does it include anything about her tone of voice? or facial expression? Does it include details of the situation she was describing? Does it include details of the setting in which she made the remark (such as who she was addressing)?

She was yopeishly trying to make a joke: about race? about racism? about people who believe the stereotype? about black people who conform to the stereotype?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2009 - 7:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Buzzard (Buzzard)
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Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2009 - 7:08 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
The context that is necessary to understand that Zelia's racist-sounding remark is not really racist: Does it include something she said before? no or after? yesthe remark? Does it include anything about her tone of voice? no or facial expression? Does it include details of the situation she was describing? Does it include details of the setting in which she made the remark (such as who she was addressing)? no

She was yopeishly trying to make a joke: about race? no about racism? noabout people who believe the stereotype? no about black people who conform to the stereotype? no. BLOOOOOPERRRRRALERTTTTTTTTTTTTT: I probably should have answered 'noish' to the question of whetrher she was trying to make a joke
Buzzard (Buzzard)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2009 - 6:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are there any more relevant qualities of the stereotype that we need to discover? Or could it be any negative stereotype about a particular race that is widely believed and describes an attribute of at least some members of that race?

Was Zelia's racist-sounding remark merely a statemeent of the stereotype (e.g. "Black people are all criminals")? Or was it more complicated than that?

Did Zelia make her racist-sounding remark in order to lull racists into agreeing with her? And in the next sentence, she pointed out that anyone who agreed with the previous remark is, in fact, racist? (E.g., "Black people are all criminals. If you believe that, you've been listening to too much right-wing talk radio, and you should have a look at some actual crime statistics.")
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2009 - 10:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Buzzard (Buzzard)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2009 - 6:45 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Are there any more relevant qualities of the stereotype that we need to discover? yesOr could it be any negative stereotype about a particular race that is widely believed and describes an attribute of at least some members of that race? no

Was Zelia's racist-sounding remark merely a statemeent of the stereotype (e.g. "Black people are all criminals")? Or was it more complicated than that? yesish--more like "All [or most] black people are. . ."

Did Zelia make her racist-sounding remark in order to lull racists into agreeing with her? no And in the next sentence, she pointed out that anyone who agreed with the previous remark is, in fact, racist? no(E.g., "Black people are all criminals. If you believe that, you've been listening to too much right-wing talk radio, and you should have a look at some actual crime statistics.")
Bolapara (Bolapara)
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Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2009 - 2:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

All black people are black? Forgetting that some are albinos and that few people actually have skin color the color of their race (white, yellow, red, black)?

Is her comment in regards to behavior? body type? hair style?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Monday, January 19, 2009 - 8:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bolapara (Bolapara)
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Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2009 - 2:59 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
All black people are black?no Forgetting that some are albinos and that few people actually have skin color the color of their race (white, yellow, red, black)? no

Is her comment in regards to behavior? yope body type? no hair style? no
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Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 8:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Black people are arrested for the most crimes in this city?

Makeing her comment based on the statistics that show she is right?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 8:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bolapara (Bolapara)
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Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 8:32 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Black people are arrested for the most crimes in this city?

Makeing her comment based on the statistics that show she is right? no
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2009 - 3:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

HINT: Some racial stereotypes would not work for this puzzle. Find out which ones & why.
Buzzard (Buzzard)
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Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2009 - 9:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Which of the following stereotypes would work:

"Black people are stupid"?
"Black people are lazy"?
"Black people are inclined to commit violence"?
"Black people are inclined to steal"?
"Black people are inclined to use drugs"?
"Black people are inclined to deal drugs"?
"Black people are racist against white people"?
"Black people are inclined to have children out of wedlock"?
"Black people don't raise their children properly"?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Friday, January 23, 2009 - 8:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Buzzard (Buzzard)
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Post Number: 1048
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Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2009 - 9:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Which of the following stereotypes would work:

"Black people are stupid"?Yes. In fact, that was the remark I had in mind.
"Black people are lazy"? yes
"Black people are inclined to commit violence"? yes
"Black people are inclined to steal"? yes
"Black people are inclined to use drugs"? no
"Black people are inclined to deal drugs"? no
"Black people are racist against white people"? no
"Black people are inclined to have children out of wedlock"?noish
"Black people don't raise their children properly"? yes. In fact, this would work even better than "Black people are atupid."
Buzzard (Buzzard)
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Posted on Friday, January 23, 2009 - 9:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Supposing that she said "Black people are stupid," does the context-giving remark deal with: black people? non-black people? a more specific group of people? intelligence? stupidity? a specific instance or type of intelligence/stupidity?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Friday, January 23, 2009 - 9:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Buzzard (Buzzard)
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Post Number: 1049
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Posted on Friday, January 23, 2009 - 9:38 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Supposing that she said "Black people are stupid," does the context-giving remark deal with: black people? no non-black people? yes a more specific group of people? yope intelligence? see next answer stupidity? yes a specific instance or type of intelligence/stupidity? no
Buzzard (Buzzard)
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Post Number: 1050
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Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2009 - 12:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was it a statement to the effect that other people are stupid too?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 3:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Buzzard (Buzzard)
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Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2009 - 12:59 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Was it a statement to the effect that other
people are stupid too? yes

************* SPOILER **************
When Zelia complains about 2 of her co-workers, first saying, "Frank is stupid" & then "Georgette is stupid," Tom, knowing that F & G are both black, asks, "Do you think black people are stupid?" "Yes," says Zelia, " I think most black people are stupid." Lyndell, walking by just in time to overhear that sentence, immediately writes Zelia off as a racist because she doesn't stick around to hear Zelia add, "I think most white people are stupid. I think most people are stupid."Believe it or not, this sort of oversight actually occurs in social science questionnaires designed to measure prejudice, e.g., When respondants are asked to agree or disagree with such statements as "Blacks would rather be on welfare than work" & are not asked whether they think this is more true of blacks that of other races. Thanks for solving it, Buzzard. Guess where my new puzzle is.
Buzzard (Buzzard)
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Post Number: 1052
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Posted on Monday, January 26, 2009 - 2:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It seems so obvious in retrospect, probably because I've known people like Zelia. Thanks for the puzzle.

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