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Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 307
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 11:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It cost so many lives...
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Post Number: 1672
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Posted on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 2:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Chernobyl?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 4:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tobacco?

Human lives?

Location or time period relevant?

Or, since it COST, rather than COSTS, is this something that is no longer used? Is it eaten? Smoked? Used in some other way? Is it wild or cultivated?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 310
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Posted on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 10:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Chernobyl? No; an interesting lateral twist, though ;-))

Tobacco? No

Human lives? Yes

Location or time period relevant? Yes to both

Or, since it COST, rather than COSTS, is this something that is no longer used? It is still used, but you are OTRT Is it eaten? Yes Smoked? No Used in some other way? Yes Is it wild or cultivated? Mostly cultivated
Gourami (Gourami)
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Post Number: 17
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 6:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The tomato, by every chance?

Were all the people killed in the same way? Poisoned? Accidental death? Murder? Suicide? Were the people who ate it the people who died?

Hm...cost...anything about money relevant?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 313
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Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 6:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The tomato, by every chance? No

Were all the people killed in the same way? Yope Poisoned? No Accidental death? No Murder? Yes Suicide? No Were the people who ate it the people who died? Not necessarily

Hm...cost...anything about money relevant? Yesish, given that money is almost always relevant
Biograd (Biograd)
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Post Number: 318
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Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 10:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it a fruit? vegetable? legume? cereal?

Did the people die as a consequence of the impact of the cultivation of this plant on the economy?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 314
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Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 11:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it a fruit? no vegetable? yesish legume? no cereal? no

Did the people die as a consequence of the impact of the cultivation of this plant on the economy? no
Biograd (Biograd)
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Post Number: 319
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Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 3:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would you be able find this vegetable(ish) in a typical grocery store?

The people murdered--did they grow the relevant plant? harvest it? sell it? purchase it?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 316
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Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 8:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would you be able find this vegetable(ish) in a typical grocery store? I would say yes

The people murdered--did they grow the relevant plant? Irrelevant harvest it? Irrelevant sell it? Irrelevant purchase it? Irrelevant
Gourami (Gourami)
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Post Number: 20
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Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 4:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Potato famine?

Is it a drug of some kind? Does this take place in Europe? US? South America? Asia?

Were the people all murdered, but in different ways? If so, were any stabbed? Shot? Starved? Force-fed?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 318
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Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 5:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Potato famine? No

Is it a drug of some kind? in a sense, it can also be used as a drug Does this take place in Europe? No US? No South America? Yes Asia? No

Were the people all murdered, but in different ways? Yes If so, were any stabbed? Yes Shot? Yes Starved? No Force-fed? No
D_gordon (D_gordon)
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Post Number: 211
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Posted on Wednesday, January 07, 2009 - 4:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is a war relevant? A war over this "deadly plant?"

Let's clarify "in a sense." Insofar as it can be used as a drug -- is this drug illegal in the United States, as of right now?

Is the coca plant relevant? Poppies? Mushrooms?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 321
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Posted on Wednesday, January 07, 2009 - 4:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is a war relevant? No A war over this "deadly plant?" No

Let's clarify "in a sense." OK Insofar as it can be used as a drug -- is this drug illegal in the United States, as of right now? No

Is the coca plant relevant? No Poppies? No Mushrooms? No
Oisin (Oisin)
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Post Number: 58
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Posted on Wednesday, January 07, 2009 - 5:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The 'drug' nature - medicinal?
Does this concern chocolate?
Is the time period Mayan? Aztec (I know that is a North American civilisation, but is non-US North America or Central America relevant?)
The deaths - ritual sacrifice?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 322
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Posted on Wednesday, January 07, 2009 - 5:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The 'drug' nature - medicinal? Yes
Does this concern chocolate? No
Is the time period Mayan? No Aztec No (I know that is a North American civilisation how do you know this?, but is non-US North America or Central America relevant?) Yes
The deaths - ritual sacrifice? No
Gourami (Gourami)
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Post Number: 24
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Posted on Thursday, January 08, 2009 - 3:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the murderers (murderer?) want to obtain the plant? If so, to use it as a drug? To use it as a food? Were the murders cause by an altered state of conciousness? Is the injury/disease/ailment that the drug treats relevant?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 326
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Posted on Thursday, January 08, 2009 - 3:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the murderers (murderer?) want to obtain the plant? No If so, to use it as a drug?No To use it as a food? No Were the murders cause by an altered state of conciousness? No Is the injury/disease/ailment that the drug treats relevant? No; the fact that it can also be used a drug is not relevant at all for the purposes of this puzzle
Gourami (Gourami)
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Post Number: 28
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Posted on Thursday, January 08, 2009 - 11:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the plant used in any way to commit the murders?

Okay, trying to get my head around these murders...did they occur at the same time? within a year? Within 10 years? 50 years? Could you call it a massacre? Did everyone murdered have something in common? Relevent where they were killed?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 327
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Posted on Friday, January 09, 2009 - 8:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the plant used in any way to commit the murders? Yes

Okay, trying to get my head around these murders...did they occur at the same time? Yes within a year? Within 10 years? 50 years? within several days Could you call it a massacre? that's what it is actually called Did everyone murdered have something in common? Yes Relevent where they were killed? Yes
D_gordon (D_gordon)
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Post Number: 218
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Posted on Friday, January 09, 2009 - 9:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is religion relevant? Any form of religious persecution?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 332
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Posted on Friday, January 09, 2009 - 10:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is religion relevant? No Any form of religious persecution? No
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Posted on Friday, January 09, 2009 - 11:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So I guess it's not a power plant?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2009 - 12:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So I guess it's not a power plant? that' s correct. It isn't.
Oisin (Oisin)
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Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2009 - 1:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The country where this massacre took place: Colombia? Peru? Bolivia? El Salvador? Honduras? Nicaragua? Panama? Guatamala? Costa Rica? Mexico?

Was it linked to organised crime? politics? Was the government of the relevant country implicated? Any other country's government?

The plant: was it a symbol of some sort? Flower for peace? Were either the victims or the perpetrators of the massacre associated with this plant? Is colour significant?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 343
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Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2009 - 9:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The country where this massacre took place: Colombia? Peru? Bolivia? El Salvador? Honduras? Nicaragua? Panama? Guatamala? Costa Rica? Mexico? Neither but keep guessing

Was it linked to organised crime? No politics? Yes Was the government of the relevant country implicated? Yes Any other country's government? Noish

The plant: was it a symbol of some sort? Yes, with SVV of "symbol" Flower for peace? No Were either the victims or the perpetrators of the massacre associated with this plant? No but explore Is colour significant? No, but OTRT-ish.
Gourami (Gourami)
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Post Number: 34
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Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2009 - 7:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were the victims tricked in some way, using the plant? Was the plant somehow used to identify who was to be killed? Does the plant have a certain cultural significance? Is it a flower? A tea, like yerba matte?

Were these people rebels? Peaceful protesters? Guerillas? Members of a fallen government? Non-political civilians?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2009 - 7:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were the victims tricked in some way, using the plant? Yesish Was the plant somehow used to identify who was to be killed? Yes Does the plant have a certain cultural significance? No, but... Is it a flower? No A tea, like yerba matte? No

Were these people rebels? No Peaceful protesters? No Guerillas? No Members of a fallen government? No Non-political civilians? Yes
Oisin (Oisin)
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Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2009 - 10:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The country: Brazil? Equador? Uruguay? Paraguay? Argentina? Chile? Venezuela? Guyana? Surinam? Guyane?

The people killed: homeless? shanty-town dwellers? inhabitants of a particular town or region? male? female? adults? children?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2009 - 10:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The country: Brazil? Equador? Uruguay? Paraguay? Argentina? Chile? Venezuela? Guyana? Surinam? Guyane? No

The people killed: homeless? shanty-town dwellers? inhabitants of a particular town or region? male? female? adults? children? All of these could be involved; there was one thing they had in common
Oisin (Oisin)
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Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2009 - 11:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were there relevant differences between the victims and the perpetrators? Tribal? Language? Caste? Place of origin? Is some form of colonialism involved? empire? conquest?

The plant - a type of tree? nut? seaweed? grass?

Century: 20th? 19th? 18th? [LTPF list of centuries allowed?]

And on checking back, Belize seems to be the only country I have missed out in Central or South America (although I may of course have forgotten others!). Is it Belize, or are modern country boundaries not relevant?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 364
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Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2009 - 11:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were there relevant differences between the victims and the perpetrators? Yes Tribal? Language? Yes Caste? Place of origin? Yes Is some form of colonialism involved? empire? conquest? Sort of a conquest-ish

The plant - a type of tree? No nut? No seaweed? No grass? No -we have already established that it can be used as vegetable and as a medicinal drug

Century: 20th? This 19th? 18th? [LTPF list of centuries allowed?]

And on checking back, Belize seems to be the only country I have missed out in Central or South America (although I may of course have forgotten others!). Is it Belize, or are modern country boundaries not relevant? It is not Belize, and modern boundaries are still relevant. Moreover, most of the boundaries of the relevant country cannot be changed whatsoever.
Oisin (Oisin)
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Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2009 - 11:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ah yes. FA! The country is, presumably, one of the islands off the coast of America. kicks himself .

Language spoken by the perpetrators: English? Spanish? French? Portuguese? Creole? Carib? Arawak?
Language spoken by the victims: English? Spanish? French? Portuguese? Creole? Carib? Arawak?
Were the perpetrators of (mainly) European descent? African descent? American Indian descent? Other American descent?
The victims of (mainly) European descent? African descent? American Indian descent? Other American descent?
The plant in question - chosen by the perpetrators to signal who to kill? or a plant used by the victims? Was this plant, in the main, eaten by the victims? worn by the victims? grown by the victims? used by the victims for some other purpose?
D_gordon (D_gordon)
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Posted on Monday, January 12, 2009 - 4:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Falkland Islands relevant?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Monday, January 12, 2009 - 11:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ah yes. FA! The country is, presumably, one of the islands off the coast of America. Exactly

Language spoken by the perpetrators: English? Spanish? This French? Portuguese? Creole? Carib? Arawak?
Language spoken by the victims: English? Spanish? French? possibly this Portuguese? Creole? This Carib? Arawak?
Were the perpetrators of (mainly) European descent? African descent? American Indian descent? Other American descent? could be a mixture of all
The victims of (mainly) European descent? African descent? American Indian descent? Other American descent? again could be a mixture of all, with the African descent prevailing
The plant in question - chosen by the perpetrators to signal who to kill? Yes - explore or a plant used by the victims? Was this plant, in the main, eaten by the victims? Irr worn by the victims? Irr grown by the victims? Irr used by the victims for some other purpose? Irr

Falkland Islands relevant? No
Oisin (Oisin)
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Posted on Monday, January 12, 2009 - 7:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the slave trade relevant? The plant linked to the slave plantations? Coffee? Sugar cane?
Is the plant signal linked to an event in the plant's life cycle?
Gourami (Gourami)
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Posted on Monday, January 12, 2009 - 7:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Trinidad and Tobago? Antigua? Haiti? Dominican Republic (or that entire island?)? Jamaica? Grenada? Caymans?

Was the plant given to/placed with the victims earlier, to signal to the killers who to kill? Was it given to the victims at any point? Planted in their yards? Planted anywhere relevant? Did the killers use some aspect of the plant to decide who was to die? Or to justify themselves?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Monday, January 12, 2009 - 7:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the slave trade relevant? No The plant linked to the slave plantations? No Coffee? No Sugar cane? No
Is the plant signal linked to an event in the plant's life cycle? No

Trinidad and Tobago? Antigua? Haiti? This-ish Dominican Republic This (or that entire island?)? Jamaica? Grenada? Caymans?

Was the plant given to/placed with the victims earlier, to signal to the killers who to kill? Yesish - explore Was it given to the victims at any point? Yesish Planted in their yards? No Planted anywhere relevant? No Did the killers use some aspect of the plant to decide who was to die? Yes - explore Or to justify themselves? No

Excellent questions!
Oisin (Oisin)
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Posted on Monday, January 12, 2009 - 8:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The timescale involved - was the plant given to the victims within the previous day? 48 hours? week? The aspect of the plant: some part of it? petals? leaves? buds? seeds? its scent?
The method of murder relevant?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Monday, January 12, 2009 - 8:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The timescale involved - was the plant given FA to the victims within the previous day? 48 hours? week? Immediately before they were murdered The aspect of the plant: some part of it? petals? leaves? buds? seeds? I think in this case the leaves were used, but the entire plant would also work its scent? No
The method of murder relevant? Not really, besides the fact it was violent; we have already established that some of the victims were stabbed, others shot, there must have been other violent methods as well
Oisin (Oisin)
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Posted on Monday, January 12, 2009 - 8:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So not given- is the plant rubbed on the victims? fed to them? attached to them without their knowledge?
Does the plant affect the victims in some way?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Monday, January 12, 2009 - 9:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So not given- is the plant rubbed on the victims? fed to them? attached to them without their knowledge? None of these
Does the plant affect the victims in some way? No - it does not even touch them
Oisin (Oisin)
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Posted on Monday, January 12, 2009 - 9:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The plant is used immediately before the killings? But does not touch the victims?

Is it taboo to the victims? Or sacred? Do they react to it in some way that betrays them?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Monday, January 12, 2009 - 9:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The plant is used immediately before the killings? Yes But does not touch the victims? Exactly.

Is it taboo to the victims? No Or sacred? No Do they react to it in some way that betrays them? Yes
Oisin (Oisin)
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Posted on Monday, January 12, 2009 - 9:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A glimmer of light here...
Are the intended victims difficult to distinguish physically from other members of the population? Do the perpetrators need some way to detect their victims? Is the plant used at a checkpoint? Are the victims asked to identify the plant? Does the name differ in the two languages?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Monday, January 12, 2009 - 10:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A glimmer of light here... ...the one at the end of the tunnel :-))
Are the intended victims difficult to distinguish physically from other members of the population? Yes Do the perpetrators need some way to detect their victims? Yes Is the plant used at a checkpoint? Yesish Are the victims asked to identify the plant? Yes Does the name differ in the two languages? Yes

You got it! The only thing left is the name of the plant; I am already preparing a $poiler
Oisin (Oisin)
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Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2009 - 5:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do you want us to try and identify the plant?
Is it a cultivated plant? if so, is it grown as a human food crop? animal fodder? as a source of oil? Or is it a wild plant?

Do the victims realise they are being targeted? Do they know the name of the plant in the perpetrators' language?
Oisin (Oisin)
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Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2009 - 5:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just realised that this bears a remarkable similarity to the story of the Gileads and Ephraimites. So is the test a shibboleth? Do they pronounce the names differently, even though they are similar words? Spanish relevant, so some confusion over /s/, /sh/, /th/ phonemes? or the /l/ and /r/ phonemes?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2009 - 6:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do you want us to try and identify the plant? Yes; the English version of its name will do
Is it a cultivated plant? Yesif so, is it grown as a human food crop? This animal fodder? as a source of oil? Or is it a wild plant?

Do the victims realise they are being targeted? Probably not Do they know the name of the plant in the perpetrators' language? Yes

Just realised that this bears a remarkable similarity to the story of the Gileads and Ephraimites. Exactly so. So is the test a shibboleth? Yes Do they pronounce the names differently, even though they are similar words? Yesish Spanish relevant, so some confusion over /s/, /sh/, /th/ phonemes? or the /l/ and /r/ This phonemes?
Oisin (Oisin)
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Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2009 - 8:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok - my Spanish is almost non-existent, and although I speak some French, I'm not sure that's going to help, so I'm afraid I'll have to resort to a list approach.
Vegetable yesish, and leaves relevant - spice? herb? Dill? Coriander? Basil? Bay? Oregano? Marjoram? Mint? Tarragon? Fennel? Parsley? Sage? Rosemary? and Thyme? And were they going to Scarborough Fair...
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2009 - 10:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok - my Spanish is almost non-existent, and although I speak some French, I'm not sure that's going to help, so I'm afraid I'll have to resort to a list approach.
Vegetable yesish, and leaves relevant - spice? herb? Dill? Coriander? Basil? Bay? Oregano? Marjoram? Mint? Tarragon? Fennel? Parsley? This Sage? Rosemary? and Thyme? And were they going to Scarborough Fair... Given the topic of the puzzle, it may seem inappropriate, but I have been humming this for two days

and I can now post a **************SPOILER********


In October 1937, Dominican dictator Rafael Leónidas Trujillo Molina ordered the execution of the Haitian population living close to the borders with Haiti. 17,000 to 35,000 Haitian civilians were massacred with machetes, clubs and knives by Dominican soldiers, civilians and local political authorities over a span of approximately five days, from October 2 to October 8, 1937. This infamous act would later become known as the Parsley Massacre due to the shibboleth which Trujillo had his soldiers apply to determine whether or not those living on the border were native Dominicans who spoke Spanish fluently. The soldiers would hold up a sprig of parsley, ask "What is this?", and those who could not pronounce the Spanish word for parsley, "perejil", were assumed to be Haitian and killed. Haitian Creole is a French-based language with the "r" sounding similarly as in French, which makes it difficult if not impossible for the Haitians to pronounce the rolled Spanish "r".

The alleged reason was that Haitians stole cattle and crops from Dominican residents of the borderlands, the actual one was trying to avoid Haitians settling on the Dominican land (and Haiti subsequently claiming part of this land), and ethnical cleansing making the population more homogeneous and less resistant to Trujillo’s dictatorship.

No international protest was ever raised against this atrocity.

If you are interested, you will find more information in Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsley_Massacre which I used as a source of this information.


Thanks to everyone who has participated and especially to Oisin for the clever questions leading to the final solution. You have been simply excellent.

I am looking forward to meeting you at another puzzle, hopefully with a less gloomy topic.
Oisin (Oisin)
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Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2009 - 11:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Excellent puzzle, Alhucema. And a fascinating link. Thank you!
D_gordon (D_gordon)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2009 - 11:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Nice puzzle. I had a feeling I should have asked if a shibboleth was relevant -- the fact that the word means "ear of grain" was putting it in my mind.

The same concept was used in the Bible, which originated the word "shibboleth" as meaning "a test or password to distinguish one group from another.

"Gilead then cut Ephraim off from the fords of the Jordan, and whenever Ephraimite fugitives said, 'Let me cross,' the men of Gilead would ask, 'Are you an Ephraimite?' If he said, 'No,' they then said, 'Very well, say Shibboleth.' If anyone said, 'Sibboleth', because he could not pronounce it, then they would seize him and kill him by the fords of the Jordan. Forty-two thousand Ephraimites fell on this occasion." --Judges 12:5-6
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 10:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thank you for the reference, D_gordon and Oisin. I must confess that when Oisin mentioned it several posts ago, I had to bring my Bible and look for this section, as I knew just the word "shibboleth" as "password", and did not realize that it has Biblical connotations. Shame on me ;-))

But it is one of the things I like on the LTPF - that you guys make me look for information which is outside the area of thinking I am usually moving in. But this is lateral thinking in its pure sense, isn't it?

Thank you again, and if you like, it would be nice to meet you at my new puzzle

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