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Gourami (Gourami)
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Post Number: 48
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2009 - 10:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ronald was going to commit suicide, but then he was killed. The police decided it was a homicide, then changed the charge to involuntary manslaughter, then realized it had been indirect murder, but still murder. Finally, they decided it had been suicide all along.

(It's a popular story, please don't $p0i1 if you know it.)
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Post Number: 1737
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Posted on Monday, January 26, 2009 - 11:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think I know this so i will nothing
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Post Number: 1738
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Posted on Monday, January 26, 2009 - 11:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sorry meant "say nothing".
Gourami (Gourami)
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Post Number: 52
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Posted on Monday, January 26, 2009 - 3:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You can e-mail if you like.
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Post Number: 1742
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Posted on Monday, January 26, 2009 - 7:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

your e-mail address is no longer in your profile.
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Post Number: 1745
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Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2009 - 10:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

E-mail sent.
Gourami (Gourami)
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Post Number: 56
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Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2009 - 2:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You've got half of it. And yes, unbeknownst to me, Peter has posted a puzzle with a similar solution to this one. Try not to peek if you don't know it, but even if you do, that won't give you the whole answer.
Cheers!
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Post Number: 1820
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Posted on Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 10:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Homicide is not a charge...
Kaygee (Kaygee)
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Post Number: 191
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Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 3:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You're right, Gourami. Not a single question -- until now!

Did Ronald know his killer? Was he in his home at the time of his demise?
Gourami (Gourami)
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Post Number: 63
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Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 4:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)

Homicide is not a charge... And I didn't charge anyone with it. You can replace it with "murder in the first degree" if you like.

Kaygee (Kaygee)

You're right, Gourami. Not a single question -- until now! Lol thanks.

Did Ronald know his killer? Yes, in every scenario. Was he in his home at the time of his demise? No, explore.
Kaygee (Kaygee)
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Post Number: 195
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Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 7:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was there more than one person performing the homicide, manslaughter and 2nd degree murder?
If so, were the cops unsure as to which injury was the actual cause of death?
Gourami (Gourami)
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Post Number: 66
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Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 9:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kaygee (Kaygee)

Was there more than one person performing the homicide, manslaughter and 2nd degree murder? No.
If so, were the cops unsure as to which injury was the actual cause of death? So no.
Crazypalpig (Crazypalpig)
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Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 11:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were the police correct in making the final verdict? Was Ronald at the place he was going to commit suicide? Did he leave a suicide note?
Gourami (Gourami)
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Post Number: 68
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Posted on Monday, February 02, 2009 - 12:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Crazypalpig (Crazypalpig)

Were the police correct in making the final verdict? Depends on your opinion, but technically, yes. Was Ronald at the place he was going to commit suicide? Yope, explore. Did he leave a suicide note? Yes but irr.
Arek_fu (Arek_fu)
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Post Number: 620
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Tuesday, February 03, 2009 - 11:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is Ronald's cause of death relevant? If so, did he die of...
...asphyxiation?
...bleeding?
...cardiac arrest?
...fatal wounds?
...electrocution (the most common cause of death in lateral puzzles)?
...drowning?
...poisoning?
...other?

Was the assumed cause of death the same for all the scenarios? If not, please answer the question above for each of the scenarios.

Is there only one other relevant person? Is (s)he HAM? Did (s)he know Ronald? Were they related? Friends? Colleagues? Acquaintances? Strangers?

Was Ronald found indoors? Outdoors?
Gourami (Gourami)
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Post Number: 75
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Posted on Wednesday, February 04, 2009 - 4:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Arek_fu (Arek_fu)

Is Ronald's cause of death relevant? Yes indeed. If so, did he die of...
...asphyxiation?
...bleeding?
...cardiac arrest?
...fatal wounds? This, which could lead to bleeding and cardiac arrest.
...electrocution (the most common cause of death in lateral puzzles)?
...drowning?
...poisoning?
...other? Yes, find exact cause.

Was the assumed cause of death the same for all the scenarios? Yes. If not, please answer the question above for each of the scenarios.

Is there only one other relevant person? No.Is (s)he HAM? One HAM, one HAF. Did (s)he know Ronald? Yes and yes. Were they related? Yes and yes. Friends? Colleagues? Acquaintances? Strangers? No to rest.

Was Ronald found indoors? Outdoors? Here.
Arek_fu (Arek_fu)
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Post Number: 621
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Posted on Wednesday, February 04, 2009 - 9:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did something pierce his body? Smash into it? Did he fall from a high place? Was any of his body parts severed?

Can we call the HAM Harry and the HAF Hermione?
Was Harry Ronald's father? Son? Brother? Grandfather? Grandson?
Was Hermione Ronald's mother? Daughter? Sister? Grandmother? Granddaughter?

Did Harry murder Ronald? Did Hermione? What about the alternative scenarios?

Relevant where exactly Ronald was found?
Gourami (Gourami)
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Post Number: 76
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Posted on Wednesday, February 04, 2009 - 2:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Arek_fu (Arek_fu)

Did something pierce his body? Yes. Smash into it? No. Did he fall from a high place? Yes, but avoid FA. Was any of his body parts severed? No.

Can we call the HAM Harry and the HAF Hermione? That would be just fine.
Was Harry Ronald's father? Yes. Son? Brother? Grandfather? Grandson?
Was Hermione Ronald's mother? Yes. Daughter? Sister? Grandmother? Granddaughter?

Did Harry murder Ronald? If it had been murder, yes. Did Hermione? No. What about the alternative scenarios? Ultimately it was ruled suicide, but explore this.

Relevant where exactly Ronald was found? Yes, but not very.
Arek_fu (Arek_fu)
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Post Number: 622
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Posted on Wednesday, February 04, 2009 - 8:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is Ronald's age relevant? If so, was he [insert LTPF list of natural numbers] years old? Was any of the persons involved mentally or physically impaired? Did they have any unusual mental or physical characteristic?

Was Ronald pierced by a blade? A knife? A pair of scissors? Did he fall on something that pierced him? Was Ronald already dead when he started falling? When he hit the ground? Did he fall from a tree? A window?

Did the police change their mind about the case because they found new evidence? Because they discovered new facts? Because their interpretation of the events changed?

BTW, by "second-degree murder" you mean non-premeditated, right?
Gourami (Gourami)
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Post Number: 77
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Posted on Thursday, February 05, 2009 - 1:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Arek_fu (Arek_fu)

Is Ronald's age relevant? No. If so, was he [insert LTPF list of natural numbers] years old? Let's say twenties to forties. Was any of the persons involved mentally or physically impaired? Noish. Did they have any unusual mental or physical characteristic? Depends on your definition, but I'll say no.

Was Ronald pierced by a blade? A knife? A pair of scissors? No to all. Did he fall on something that pierced him? No. Was Ronald already dead when he started falling? No. When he hit the ground? FA, but yes. Did he fall from a tree? No. A window? This could work.

Did the police change their mind about the case because they found new evidence? Because they discovered new facts? This. Because their interpretation of the events changed? And therefore this.

BTW, by "second-degree murder" you mean non-premeditated, right? No, I mean indirect. Sorry for the mix-up.
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Posted on Monday, February 09, 2009 - 8:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So...
Ronald was going to intentionally kill himself.
Ronald was killed.
The police decided that it was an unlawful killing of a human being:

1. When perpetrated from a premeditated design to effect the death of the person killed or any human being;

2. When committed by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any:

a. Trafficking offense prohibited by FSS 893.135(1),

b. Arson,

c. Sexual battery,

d. Robbery,

e. Burglary,

f. Kidnapping,

g. Escape,

h. Aggravated child abuse,

i. Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,

j. Aircraft piracy,

k. Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,

l. Carjacking,

m. Home-invasion robbery,

n. Aggravated stalking,

o. Murder of another human being,

p. Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person,

q. Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism; or

3. Which resulted from the unlawful distribution of any substance controlled under s. 893.03(1), cocaine as described in s. 893.03(2)(a)4., or opium or any synthetic or natural salt, compound, derivative, or preparation of opium by a person 18 years of age or older, when such drug is proven to be the proximate cause of the death of the user.
Then they changed their mind and decided it was involuntary killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification and that it was the case that such killing was not excusable homicide or murder.
They then realized it was an unlawful killing of a human being when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and envincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, or that a person was killed in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any:
(a) Trafficking offense,
(b) Arson,
(c) Sexual battery,
(d) Robbery,
(e) Burglary
(f) Kidnapping
(g) Escape
(h) Aggravated child abuse,
(i) Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,
(j) Aircraft piracy
(k) Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,
(l) Carjacking
(m) Home-invasion robbery,
(n) Aggravated stalking,
(o) Murder of another human being
(p) Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person
(q) Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism
by a person other than the person engaged in the perpetration of or in the attempt to perpetrate such felony.

Finally, they decided that he had killed himself all along?
Gourami (Gourami)
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Post Number: 81
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Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2009 - 5:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)

So...
Ronald was going to intentionally kill himself. Yes.
Ronald was killed. Yes.

The police decided that it was an unlawful killing of a human being:

1. When perpetrated from a premeditated design to effect the death of the person killed or any human being; Yes. And this is the relevant definition of murder. The wording is actually slightly relevant.

Then they changed their mind and decided it was involuntary killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification and that it was the case that such killing was not excusable homicide or murder. Yes.

They then realized it was an unlawful killing of a human being when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and envincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, No. As said above, "second degree murder" doesn't refer to the legal definition, but to the fact that the murder was indirect. It was premeditated.

Finally, they decided that he had killed himself all along? Yes.
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2009 - 6:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I could think of some ways that murder of the second degree could be indirect...

For example, imagine that some guy randomly carjacks a person in the middle of a busy highway. He grabs the driver and throws them out into the street, and they subsequently are run over by an 18-wheeler and get killed. Since the carjacker committed a forcible felony, and during the course of the carjacking, the victim was killed by someone other than the carjacker, the carjacker indirectly murdered the victim, and would be guilty of second-degree murder.
Arek_fu (Arek_fu)
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Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2009 - 8:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just to make things clear (sorry I'm dumb), would poisoning a dish count as a valid example of "indirect murder"? What about hiding a trap in a garden? In the indirect-murder scenario, did the police think the murderer was Harry? Hermione?

Did Ronald never hit the ground? Did he fall on something else? Water? The ubiquitous piranha-transport lorry? Anything we should discover about the puzzle location?

Was Ronald shot? Was he pierced by a bullet?

You said the people involved are notishly physically or mentally impaired. Does the -ish refer to Ronald? Harry? Hermione? Is it of mental nature? Physical?

Is any of them very tall/short/fat/thin? Something along these lines? More generally, is there anything else we should discover about Ronald? Harry? Hermione?
Gourami (Gourami)
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Post Number: 85
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Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2009 - 5:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)

I could think of some ways that murder of the second degree could be indirect...

For example, imagine that some guy randomly carjacks a person in the middle of a busy highway. He grabs the driver and throws them out into the street, and they subsequently are run over by an 18-wheeler and get killed. Since the carjacker committed a forcible felony, and during the course of the carjacking, the victim was killed by someone other than the carjacker, the carjacker indirectly murdered the victim, and would be guilty of second-degree murder. This one is legally similar, except premeditated.

Arek_fu (Arek_fu)

Just to make things clear (sorry I'm dumb), It's my fault for mixing legal and non-. would poisoning a dish count as a valid example of "indirect murder"? Not in the sense that I use it here. What about hiding a trap in a garden? Not in this sense. In the indirect-murder scenario, did the police think the murderer was Harry? Noish. Hermione? No.

Did Ronald never hit the ground? Yes. Did he fall on something else? Yes. Water? The ubiquitous piranha-transport lorry? No to rest, and don't get too caught up on this part.Anything we should discover about the puzzle location? Yes.

Was Ronald shot? Yes.Was he pierced by a bullet? Yes indeed.

You said the people involved are noishly physically or mentally impaired. Does the -ish refer to Ronald? Yes. Harry? Hermione? No to rest. Is it of mental nature? Yes. Physical? No.

Is any of them very tall/short/fat/thin? Irr.Something along these lines? No. More generally, is there anything else we should discover about Ronald? Harry? Hermione? Certain eccentricities are relevant to the puzzle. Otherwise, the only things to discover are their actions.
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Post Number: 1947
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Posted on Thursday, February 12, 2009 - 1:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did law enforcement have a profile of suspects whom they believed may have played a part in the Murder-1D, Manslaughter, indirect Murder-1D? Did Ronnie shoot himself? Did the criminal investigators find the firearm used in the "suicide"? Was the serial number of the firearm shaved off?
Gourami (Gourami)
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Posted on Friday, February 13, 2009 - 6:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)

Did law enforcement have a profile of suspects whom they believed may have played a part in the Murder-1D, One suspect, yes. Manslaughter, One suspect, yes. indirect Murder-1D? Yesish, explore. Did Ronnie shoot himself? Difficult question. I'll say no. Did the criminal investigators find the firearm used in the "suicide"? Yes. Was the serial number of the firearm shaved off? Irr.
Arek_fu (Arek_fu)
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Posted on Sunday, February 15, 2009 - 11:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did someone hold the gun that shot Ron? Did someone trigger it? Voluntarily? Involuntarily? Was it a special kind of gun? Maybe a shotgun? A rifle? A pistol? An underwater gun?
Gourami (Gourami)
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Posted on Monday, February 16, 2009 - 5:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Arek_fu (Arek_fu)

Did someone hold the gun that shot Ron? Yes.Did someone trigger it? Yes. Voluntarily? Yope. Involuntarily? Yope. =) Was it a special kind of gun? Maybe a shotgun? A rifle? A pistol? This works. An underwater gun?
Arek_fu (Arek_fu)
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Posted on Tuesday, February 17, 2009 - 8:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Harry hold the gun? Hermione? Did he intend to pull the trigger? Did he intend to fire a bullet? Did he think the gun was not loaded? Did he intend to fire at something/someone else? Was he aiming towards Ron? Was only one bullet fired?

Any professions relevant? Is this a case of "suicide by cop"? Did Ron try to make his suicide look like a murder? Is Ron's motive for suicide relevant?

Is the following sequence of events correct:
* Ron decides to commit suicide;
* Someone pulls the trigger of a gun;
* A bullet is fired;
* The bullet hits Ron;
* Ron dies;
* Ron falls from a window.
...or maybe the last two took place in the opposite order?

Does the action take place in a public building? In an apartment? In an office? At a working place?

And finally, is this a true story? And Ron is human, right?
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Posted on Tuesday, February 17, 2009 - 11:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Ron actually and intentionally bring about his own death?
Gourami (Gourami)
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Posted on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 5:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Arek_fu (Arek_fu)

Did Harry hold the gun? Yes. Hermione? No. Did he intend to pull the trigger? Yes.Did he intend to fire a bullet? No. Did he think the gun was not loaded? YES. Did he intend to fire at something/someone else? Yesish, given the above. Was he aiming towards Ron? No. Was only one bullet fired? Yes, irr.

Any professions relevant? No. Is this a case of "suicide by cop"? No, good thought though.Did Ron try to make his suicide look like a murder? No. Is Ron's motive for suicide relevant? YES (although not altogether rational).

Is the following sequence of events correct:
* Ron decides to commit suicide;
* Someone pulls the trigger of a gun;
* A bullet is fired;
* The bullet hits Ron;
* Ron dies;
* Ron falls from a window. No.
...or maybe the last two took place in the opposite order? They did, but not next to each other in order.

Does the action take place in a public building? In an apartment? This. In an office? At a working place?

And finally, is this a true story? No, but it is often mistaken for one. And Ron is human, right? Yes.

Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)

Did Ron actually and intentionally bring about his own death? No. He did intend to die, and he did cause his own death, but not by the mechanism he intended.
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Posted on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 6:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Ron's motive for suicide...

Fame and fortune?
Kalira (Kalira)
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Posted on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 7:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So Harry shot Ron? But didn't mean to? Did he mean to aim the gun at Ron? Did Ron want Harry to aim the gun at him? Did he do something to make Harry aim at him?

Did Ron actually fall from a window?

To work from Arek_fu's sequence, did Ron fall, then get shot by Harry, then die? Or did he get shot, then fall, then die?

Wanted to make sure I understood this: Was Ron dead before his fall ended? Did the bullet kill him?

Was it ruled a suicide specifically because Ron intended to commit suicide, even though these other circumstances intervened while he was trying to kill himself?
Arek_fu (Arek_fu)
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Posted on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 7:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A bell is ringing very far, somewhere inside my head... I'm sure I've heard this story before, but I can't place it. Probably it was Peter's puzzle. Anyway...

Was Ron planning to commit suicide by jumping off the window? And he ended up shot instead?
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 1:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Pickles relevant?
Gourami (Gourami)
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Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 12:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)

Was Ron's motive for suicide...

Fame and fortune? No.

Kalira (Kalira) Welcome!

So Harry shot Ron? Yes. But didn't mean to? Yes. Did he mean to aim the gun at Ron? No. Did Ron want Harry to aim the gun at him? No. Did he do something to make Harry aim at him? No...ish.

Did Ron actually fall from a window? Yes.

To work from Arek_fu's sequence, did Ron fall, then get shot by Harry, then die? YES! Or did he get shot, then fall, then die? No.

Wanted to make sure I understood this: Was Ron dead before his fall ended? Yes. Did the bullet kill him? Yes. Good questions!

Was it ruled a suicide specifically because Ron intended to commit suicide, even though these other circumstances intervened while he was trying to kill himself? No, there's a better reason than that. By the way, yes, if someone is unquestionably going to die when they are killed, it might not be ruled murder. But that is not the case here.

Arek_fu (Arek_fu)

A bell is ringing very far, somewhere inside my head... I'm sure I've heard this story before, but I can't place it. Probably it was Peter's puzzle. Anyway... Yeah, the bits that this puzzle has in commoon with that have been solved.

Was Ron planning to commit suicide by jumping off the window? Yes.And he ended up shot instead? Yope. He did jump, and he was shot.

Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)

Pickles relevant? No, though that joke could make an interesting puzzle...
Howardwoman (Howardwoman)
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Did Harry mistake Ron for something/someone else?
Gourami (Gourami)
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Howardwoman (Howardwoman)

Did Harry mistake Ron for something/someone else? No.
Arek_fu (Arek_fu)
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Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 9:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Ron jump off the window and get shot on the way down? Did Harry and Hermione live downstairs from him? Maybe Harry was trying a gun, thinking it was not loaded (but it was) and he fired a bullet exactly at the moment Ron was passing by the window. Downwards.
Gourami (Gourami)
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Arek_fu (Arek_fu)

Did Ron jump off the window and get shot on the way down? Yes! Did Harry and Hermione live downstairs from him? Yes. Maybe Harry was trying a gun, thinking it was not loaded (but it was) Not exactly... and he fired a bullet exactly at the moment Ron was passing by the window. Downwards. But yes.
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 3:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the gun misfire?
Was Harry cleaning his gun and accidentally fired it?
And the bullet went out the window, passing through Ron as he was falling towards the ground during his suicide attempt, and the bullet managed to hit a vital organ/vain/artery or something that caused him to die before he hit the ground, but he didn't hit the ground because there happened to be a dump truck filled with pillows that pulled up right below him at the very instant he fell?
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Did the police think it was indirect Murder 1 because they thought that someone shot the gun in an attempt to kill someone else and wound up shooting Ron?
Gourami (Gourami)
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Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)

Did the gun misfire? As in, not fire when it was supposed to? No.
Was Harry cleaning his gun and accidentally fired it? No.
And the bullet went out the window, passing through Ron as he was falling towards the ground during his suicide attempt, Yes. and the bullet managed to hit a vital organ/vain/artery or something that caused him to die before he hit the ground, Yes. but he didn't hit the ground because there happened to be a dump truck filled with pillows that pulled up right below him at the very instant he fell? Yes. Well, a safety net for window-washers would be more likely, but anything soft.

Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)

Did the police think it was indirect Murder 1 because they thought that someone shot the gun in an attempt to kill someone else and wound up shooting Ron? If you're talking about the first charge, yes.

Note: I'm going to change the puzzle statement slightly to avoid the confusion that has cropped up.
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 6:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

OK, so...
1. Ronald was going to intentionally kill himself (commit suicide).

Then...
2. Ronald was killed.

Then...
3. The police decided it was a killing of a human being by another human (homicide).

Then...
4. The police changed the charge to involuntary homicide by act, procurement, or culpable negligence, other than lawful homicide or murder (manslaughter).

Then...
5. The police realized it had been indirect murder of the first degree.

Finally...
6. The police decided it had been an intentional killing of oneself all along (suicide).
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 7:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

For the purposes of standardization of legal terms, I will provide a listing of such terms and their definitions. This will probably be moved to my Wikipedia subpage when I get around to it.

Homicide: The killing of human being by another human being.

Suicide: The actual and intentional killing of oneself.

Cause of death: The cause of death is any injury or disease that produces a physiological derangement in the body that results in the death of the individual, thus, although differing widely, the following are causes of death: a gunshot wound to the head, a stab wound to the chest, adenocarcinoma of the lung, and coronary atherosclerosis.

Mechanism of death: The mechanism of death is the physiological derangement produced by the cause of death that results in death. Examples of mechanism of death would be hemorrhage, septicemia, and cardiac arrhythmia. One must realize that a particular mechanism of death can be produced by multiple causes of death and vice versa. Thus, if an individual dies of massive hemorrhage, it can be produced by a gunshot wound, a stab wound, a malignant tumor of the lung eroding into a blood vessel and so forth. The reverse of this is that a cause of death, for example, a gunshot wound of the abdomen, can result in many possible mechanisms of death, e.g. hemorrhage or peritonitis. Medical examiners often have to review death certificates produced by clinicians. Not infrequently, the cause of death is listed as "cardiac arrest" or "cardiopulmonary arrest." Simply stated, this means that the heart stopped or the heart and lungs stopped. Experience tells us, however, that when any individual dies, the heart and lungs stop. These are not causes of death and, to a degree, are not even mechanisms of death. Yet, clinicians continue to list these diagnoses on the death certificate, and some government organizations accept them as causes of death.

Manner of death: The manner of death explains how the cause came about. Manners of death can generally be categorized as natural, homicide, suicide, accident, or undetermined. Another category that may be used is "unclassified." Just as a mechanism of death can have many causes and a cause many mechanisms, a cause of death can have multiple manners. An individual can die of massive hemorrhage (the mechanism of death) due to a gunshot wound to the heart (the cause of death), with the manner of death being homicide (somebody shot the individual), suicide (they shot themselves), accident (the weapon fell and discharged), or undetermined (one is not sure what occurred).


More to come when I have time...
Gourami (Gourami)
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Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)

OK, so...
1. Ronald was going to intentionally kill himself (commit suicide). Yes.

Then...
2. Ronald was killed. Yes.

Then...
3. The police decided it was a killing of a human being by another human (homicide). Yes.

Then...
4. The police changed the charge to involuntary homicide by act, procurement, or culpable negligence, other than lawful homicide or murder (manslaughter). Yes.

Then...
5. The police realized it had been indirect murder of the first degree. Yes.

Finally...
6. The police decided it had been an intentional killing of oneself all along (suicide). Yes.

But re-listing these will only get you so far. =)
Kalira (Kalira)
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Posted on Thursday, March 19, 2009 - 4:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So was Harry trying to shoot Hermione? and missed? Or was he just aiming at her? and threatening her with the gun? and it accidentally went off? Were they having an argument? about Ronald, perhaps?

Is it relevant what kind of mental impairment Ronald had?
Was it a condition like depression? or another one that might come and go or eventually be gotten over?
Or was it something not congenital, but not (or not easily) curable (something along the lines of a head injury that caused brain damage)?
Or was it a developmental disability like autism or epilepsy that was with him since birth?
Gourami (Gourami)
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Kalira (Kalira)

So was Harry trying to shoot Hermione? Noish. and missed? Yesish. Or was he just aiming at her? Yes. and threatening her with the gun? Exactly. and it accidentally went off? Yesish, explore. Were they having an argument? Yes. about Ronald, perhaps? Irr.

Is it relevant what kind of mental impairment Ronald had? Not really, just keep it in mind.
Was it a condition like depression? He was suicidal, so yes, that's likely. or another one that might come and go or eventually be gotten over?
Or was it something not congenital, but not (or not easily) curable (something along the lines of a head injury that caused brain damage)?
Or was it a developmental disability like autism or epilepsy that was with him since birth? Irr. to rest.
Arek_fu (Arek_fu)
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Posted on Thursday, March 19, 2009 - 9:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he hear his parents quarrelling and that pushed him over the edge (literally)?
Gourami (Gourami)
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Arek_fu (Arek_fu)

Did he hear his parents quarrelling and that pushed him over the edge (literally)? No.

The motive of his suicide, as well as certain other actions of his, are given in the story, but I wouldn't dwell on them.
Ontologicalcommitment (Ontologicalcommitment)
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Was Ronald the one who loaded the gun?
Gourami (Gourami)
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Ontologicalcommitment (Ontologicalcommitment)

Was Ronald the one who loaded the gun? Yes indeed!

Thank you, new user, for bringing my old puzzle back to life!
Ontologicalcommitment (Ontologicalcommitment)
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Posted on Thursday, April 02, 2009 - 10:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My pleasure, moderator.

And would that be why, in the very end, the case was dismissed as suicide?

Did the police consider that if he weren't shot, he probably wouldn't die, given that he ended up falling on something soft?
Gourami (Gourami)
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Ontologicalcommitment (Ontologicalcommitment)

My pleasure, moderator.

And would that be why, in the very end, the case was dismissed as suicide? Yes.

Did the police consider that if he weren't shot, he probably wouldn't die, given that he ended up falling on something soft? Yes.

I think you've got all the facts...care to put it together?
Ontologicalcommitment (Ontologicalcommitment)
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Posted on Friday, April 03, 2009 - 9:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ronald, in an attempt to commit suicide, jumped from an upper storey of the building in which his parents Harry and Hermione were having an argument. Simultaneously with Ronald's fall, Harry, who was threatening his wife with a gun which he thought was empty, accidentally fired a shot that hit Ronald as he was passing by the window of that storey. The police, having examined the body with the bullet wound, decided that it was a homicide, but since Ronald had already set out to die, Harry was only charged with involuntary manslaughter. Then came the realization that the safety net (or another soft surface) on which Ronald ended up landing would have saved his life, had he not been shot. In the light of this fact, the police changed the charge to indirect murder of the first degree. However, by some obscure means the relevance of which is yet unclear, it turned out that the gun was loaded by Ronald himself for an unknown reason the relevance of which is also unclear (to get his mother shot perhaps? if it is habitual for Harry to threaten her with the unloaded gun). As a result, the police decided that it was a suicide after all.
Gourami (Gourami)
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Posted on Friday, April 03, 2009 - 1:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Entirely close enough for a

*********************SPOILER
Awesome work, Ontological. I'm just gonna retell it so that future puzzlers can just read the statement and spoiler.

Ronald jumps off the roof of an apartment building, attempting to commit suicide. Ironically, there is a window-washer's safety net set up on the side of the building that he lands in. Even more ironically, before he does, he is shot by a stray bullet coming through a window of the 8th floor.

The police arrive ready to arrest someone for murder, since it is still murder even if you end up shooting the wrong person. And although he was suicidal, Ronald would have lived if he had not been shot. So, murder.

However, the people living on the 8th floor are an old married couple who insist that there was no attempt at murder. The old man is eccentric, and when they argue he often points his old WWII gun at his wife. He had no idea it was loaded until it accidentally went off, and is very regretful. They arrest him on involuntary manslaughter, because it does seem to be accidental.

But later, a neighbor comes forward and admits that she saw someone loading the gun. The police release the man, because they have decided that this was murder, after all. Whoever loaded the gun knew that it was used in arguments, and intended to indirectly kill the old woman. The fact that the bullet killed Ronald instead is incidental. Therefore, whoever loaded the gun is Ronald's murderer.

Of course, they try to get an identification from the neighbor. The gun-loader turns out to be the man who lives on the top floor of the building. His name is Ronald, he's been acting very odd lately, and his parents live on the 8th floor...
Kalira (Kalira)
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Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 1:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Nice puzzle, Gourami, and congrats on making the final lateral leap, Ontologicalcommitment. I'll admit I hadn't thought of that possibility, though it is quite an ironically elegant solution.
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 3:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yeah, well, you're not supposed to use a gun in an argument whether or not it is loaded. Surely someone who legally owns a gun would know the safety guidelines for firearms, e.g. never let the muzzle cover anything you do not wish to destroy. The father should probably still be charged with manslaughter because it apparently occurred during an argument involving his pointing of the firearm at his wife, which would be a felony: aggravated assault.
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 3:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Actually, the father should be charged with the aggravated assault and third-degree murder. Or, possibly even first-degree murder, if his use of his firearm could be reasonably expected to cause psychological harm to his wife, and if his wife is elderly or disabled.
Gourami (Gourami)
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Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 4:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Elegent but very tough to make, as I now realize. Ontological is quite good at these.

Docta, I can only say that this story was invented by a bunch of lawyers, and I trust their judgement as to who would have been charged with what.
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 8:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yes, the murder would be a suicide, but that doesn't change the fact that it would be murder under FS 782.04. Although I'm sure a lawyer could find a way to do so, it would be hard to argue that pointing a gun at someone would not be "an intentional, unlawful threat by word or act to do violence to the person of another, coupled with an apparent ability to do so, and doing some act which creates a well-founded fear in such other person that such violence is imminent." (FS 784.011(1)) This particular incident would probably be difficult to prosecute, but if I were a juror in this case, I would have a lot of qualms about finding the man not guilty of the aggravated assault. Perhaps in other states it is perfectly legal to threaten someone with a firearm, but i know that it is not permitted in the Sunshine State.
Kalira (Kalira)
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Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 8:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am admittedly less than knowledgeable on the law (it makes my brain cry :-( ...), but wouldn't the wife have to press charges against the husband for him to be charged with assault or threatening her with the gun? Or at least be a witness against him, without which there is no case on that charge? Or were you saying he could be charged on aggravated assault to Ronald?

I don't know... as I was reading through the puzzle, I was just imagining the wife in the mindset of rolling eyes since she knows the gun is never loaded (except in this case). Something along the lines of a bored "Oh here he goes again with the gun waving." So I didn't think it was something where the husband was a tyrant scaring his wife who lived in constant fear that he was going to shoot her when they got in an argument. Though maybe I was wrong.
Gourami (Gourami)
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Posted on Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 12:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That's what I had in mind as well, actually. The wife was the only witness, and in the story she insists it was an accident. If it ever came up in court, she would probably just say the husband was cleaning the gun and it discharged.
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 08, 2009 - 4:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

In the state of Florida, the state can press charges in a case of domestic violence. Domestic violence is any assault, aggravated assault, battery, aggravated battery, sexual assault, sexual battery, stalking, aggravated stalking, kidnapping, false imprisonment, or any other criminal offense resulting in injury or death of one family or household member by another family or household member. It would most likely be nolle prossed if the wife was uncooperative. However, if there was another reliable witness who witnessed the event, that evidence could be admissible and the wife could be charged with misdemeanor providing false information to a law enforcement officer during a felony investigation and, if she made a witness statement or a testimony in court, with felony perjury. However, like I seaid before, it would be extremely hard to prove this case beyond the shadow of a reasonable doubt, as well as being able to persuade a jury to find his father guilty of such a crime. Also, on a completely unrelated note, our department's traffic homicide investigator was going over traffic stops recently when the Ryan Moats incident came up. He said it was extremely stupid for the officer to keep someone from seeing their relative in their final moments, but he did mention what he would do. He said that he would follow the subjects to the hospital and verify that they were actually visiting with a dying patient. If that was the case, he would offer his assistance and contact information to the family. If it turned out that there was no dying relative, he would arrest the driver for resisting his investigation and tow the suspect's vehicle. So the whole carrying-five-broken-phones-in-the-glove-compartment thing might not be such a good idea, at least in Titusville.
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Posted on Thursday, April 16, 2009 - 10:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Gosh, is the law system in the US really that different from Europe?
Here an aberratio ictus (you aim for A but accidentally kill B instead) is normally not regarded as murder because there was no intention to kill B. It is a failed attempt to murder A and negligence killing of B.
Also, for qualifying the shot that hit Ronald as manslaughter or not it is not relevant whether there was a net or not. Relevant is only whether the death was caused by the bullet. If the injury caused by the bullet was fatal then manslaughter, otherwise suicide (and battery).
In any case, the old man would be charged with negligence in handling the gun. According to German gun laws anybody who has a gun in his hands, for whatever reasons, is hold responsible if a bullet goes off.
So, the puzzle would not work here ..
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Posted on Thursday, April 16, 2009 - 12:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

In the state of Florida, at least, a death is deemed a murder if it was performed intentionally, and also if it occurred in the commission of a felony. Therefore, since the accidentally shooting occurred during the felonious aggravated assault/DV, the man could be charged with murder. There is not a legal recognition of "suicide", and the manner of death is determined by a combination of the investigation of the medical examiner and the law enforcement agency conducting the death investigation.

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