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Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Post Number: 1117
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Posted on Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - 7:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Why did an aviation company hire a professional musician?
Kalira (Kalira)
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Post Number: 180
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Posted on Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - 7:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Aviation company = Air Force? airline? privately owned? company whose main purpose is to build aviation machines? to fly them? famous?

Professional musician: Professional means music consists of his main source of income? Is he a composer? conductor? arranger? remixer? Someone who actually plays an instrument? Someone who sings? Someone who makes instruments? famous?

Was there a commercial involved? Did they hire him for a reason other than his musical skills?
Kalira (Kalira)
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Post Number: 181
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Posted on Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - 7:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

D'oh! Forgot one.

Any significance to the fact that you wrote "Up we go" instead of "Off we go"?
Dlcygnet (Dlcygnet)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - 10:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does it have to do with sonic testing? Designing a certain integral feature of a plane (i.e. warning sirens)? Designing a certain peripheral feature of the plane (i.e. Flight Attendant call button ding or phone service announcement music)?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Post Number: 1118
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Posted on Thursday, June 11, 2009 - 1:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Aviation company = Air Force? airline? privately owned? This. company whose main purpose is to build aviation machines? This. to fly them? famous? Well-known, among aviation enthusiasts at any rate. Which specific company is irrelevant.

Professional musician: Professional means music consists of his main source of income? Yes. Is he a composer? conductor? arranger? remixer? Someone who actually plays an instrument? This. Someone who sings? Someone who makes instruments? famous? Irrelevant.

No to the rest.


Was there a commercial involved? Did they hire him for a reason other than his musical skills? No to both.

Any significance to the fact that you wrote "Up we go" instead of "Off we go"? No, I just got the lyric wrong.

Does it have to do with sonic testing? You could say that, yes. Designing a certain integral feature of a plane Yes. (i.e. warning sirens)? Warning sirens are integral? No, not this. Designing a certain peripheral feature of the plane (i.e. Flight Attendant call button ding or phone service announcement music)? No.
Kaygee (Kaygee)
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Posted on Thursday, June 11, 2009 - 2:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Knowing you, I need to ask: Any weapons in this puzzle?

Does the musician help this company with his understanding of sound waves? tones? frequencies? amplitude?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Thursday, June 11, 2009 - 3:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Knowing you, I need to ask: Any weapons in this puzzle? No. The plane is military, but that's irrelevant to why the musician was hired.

Does the musician help this company with his understanding of sound waves? tones? frequencies? This. amplitude?
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Post Number: 513
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Posted on Thursday, June 11, 2009 - 7:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the musician hired to make music? to produce sounds in an exact pitch, frequency, volume, length, ..?
To hear, classify, compare sounds?
Relevant what instrument he played?
Did he do his work indoors? outdoors?
Was his job to visit aviation shows and listen to how the competitor's aircrafts sound? and from that the engineers would have made their conclusions about the aerodynamic properties?
Another idea: if an aircraft does not yet have an aerodynamically optimal shape there is often a soft vibration or sound of circulating air .. was the guy hired to detect this?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Post Number: 1121
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Posted on Thursday, June 11, 2009 - 9:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the musician hired to make music? Yope. to produce sounds in an exact pitch, frequency, volume, length, ..? Yes.
To hear, classify, compare sounds? Yes.
Relevant what instrument he played? Yes.
Did he do his work indoors? This. outdoors?
Was his job to visit aviation shows and listen to how the competitor's aircrafts sound? No. and from that the engineers would have made their conclusions about the aerodynamic properties? No.
Another idea: if an aircraft does not yet have an aerodynamically optimal shape there is often a soft vibration or sound of circulating air .. was the guy hired to detect this? No.
Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
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Posted on Saturday, June 13, 2009 - 8:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does it relate the "beat" phenomenom that occurs when two engines are running at slightly different speeds? Was the musician a string instrument player, accustomed to tuning his instrument using this phenomenom? Or was he a percussionist?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Saturday, June 13, 2009 - 10:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does it relate the "beat" phenomenom that occurs when two engines are running at slightly different speeds? No. Was the musician a string instrument player, Yes. accustomed to tuning his instrument using this phenomenom? Irrelevant. Or was he a percussionist? No.
Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
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Posted on Saturday, June 13, 2009 - 11:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Related to frequency of engine? Vibrational or resonant frequency of structures?

Did he use his instrument in performing work for the company? Or only the skills he had cultivated as a musician?

Frequency -- is his ability to discern harmonics and overtones relavent? Or is only the base frequency relavent? Is perfect pitch relavent?

String musicians have a number of unique skills and talents, such as tuning, intonation and bowing techniques -- is the skill for which he was hired limited to string players? Have I listed it above? If so, which is it?

If not yet answered, is the relavent skill related to his ear? To the physical playing of the instrument? Or to his sense of time and rhythm?

Did this happen in the early days of aviation? Was a musician hired because the company did not have access to technology that would provide the same information that he was able to provide? Nowadays, we have technology to precisely measure frequency -- would the musician be required today?

Possible solution: the company did not have access to technology to precisely measure frequency of sounds. The musician listened to the sound, and either by perfect pitch, or by playing along with his violin/viola/cello/bass was able to match the frequency and tell the company what note (and therefore frequency) was being produced. Or, he was able to use the same technique to compare two different notes and ascertain which was higher or lower. Is this it?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Post Number: 1127
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Posted on Sunday, June 14, 2009 - 12:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Related to frequency of engine? Yes. Vibrational or resonant frequency of structures? Yes.

Did he use his instrument in performing work for the company? No, but... Or only the skills he had cultivated as a musician? No.

Frequency -- is his ability to discern harmonics and overtones relavent? Or is only the base frequency relavent? This, I think, but I don't really know. The original story doesn't go into detail, and I'm not a musician. Is perfect pitch relavent? No.

String musicians have a number of unique skills and talents, such as tuning, intonation and bowing techniques -- is the skill for which he was hired limited to string players? Yes. Have I listed it above? If so, which is it? Using his bow, which explains the no, but... above.

If not yet answered, is the relavent skill related to his ear? This. To the physical playing of the instrument? Or to his sense of time and rhythm?

Did this happen in the early days of aviation? No, but... Was a musician hired because the company did not have access to technology that would provide the same information that he was able to provide? Yes. Nowadays, we have technology to precisely measure frequency -- would the musician be required today? Probably not.

Possible solution: the company did not have access to technology to precisely measure frequency of sounds. The musician listened to the sound, and either by perfect pitch, or by playing along with his violin/viola/cello/bass was able to match the frequency and tell the company what note (and therefore frequency) was being produced. This. Or, he was able to use the same technique to compare two different notes and ascertain which was higher or lower. Not this. Is this it? Yes. Now, why was that useful?
Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
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Post Number: 184
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Posted on Sunday, June 14, 2009 - 7:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he need to determine frequency to determine:
- the speed of the engine?
- whether or not a structural member was flawed?
- the resonant frequency of a structure?
- whether or not the engine would excite a structure at its resonant frequency?
- the maximum speed the vehicle could be flown, above which the wings would flutter and fail?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Post Number: 1128
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Posted on Sunday, June 14, 2009 - 2:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

- the speed of the engine?
- whether or not a structural member was flawed?
- the resonant frequency of a structure? This.
- whether or not the engine would excite a structure at its resonant frequency? This.
- the maximum speed the vehicle could be flown, above which the wings would flutter and fail?
Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
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Posted on Sunday, June 14, 2009 - 7:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the musician use his bow to play his instrument? Did he use the bow on the structure itself?

During testing, would he replicate the frequency of the engine on his instrument in order to excite the structure? Something like this?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Post Number: 1130
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Posted on Sunday, June 14, 2009 - 11:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the musician use his bow to play his instrument? No. Did he use the bow on the structure itself? Yes.

During testing, would he replicate the frequency of the engine on his instrument in order to excite the structure? Something like this? No. Keep trying, questions in your previous two posts have gotten very close.
Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
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Posted on Monday, June 15, 2009 - 4:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Let's see what we have -- he uses his bow to vibrate the structure to determine what its resonant frequency is (an aside -- seems like he would also have to play his instrument to provide a point of reference unless he had perfect pitch). He then provides this information to the company. So far so good?

We have already determined that the reason the company needed to ascertain frequency was to know whether or not the engine would excite a structure at its resonant frequency, correct? Is this the primary reason for his engagement, or was this part of a larger set of determinations that he was to assist with?

If this defines the scope, then all we are left with is to layout the exact sequence of events?

Would the company then take the information, and knowing the range of frequency that the engine would generate during operations, determine whether the structure would be excited at its resonant frequency?

Was the engine operated during the testing? Or did the company already know its range of frequencies? Did the musician methodically go over the entire aircraft and catalogue the frequencies of its various components?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Post Number: 1131
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Posted on Monday, June 15, 2009 - 5:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

At this point, I think I've given you all the pieces you need. I am not an engineer, and I'm only vaguely aware of how frequency and resonance even work. I'm pretty sure this is getting more complex than it needs to be, given that you know the definitions of these things better than me.

Let's see what we have -- he uses his bow to vibrate the structure to determine what its resonant frequency is (an aside -- seems like he would also have to play his instrument to provide a point of reference unless he had perfect pitch). I don't know, but I suspect it's irrelevant. He then provides this information to the company. So far so good? Yes.

We have already determined that the reason the company needed to ascertain frequency was to know whether or not the engine would excite a structure at its resonant frequency, correct? Define "exciting a structure" for me, please. If it means "shaking it up", then the answer is yes. Is this the primary reason for his engagement This., or was this part of a larger set of determinations that he was to assist with?

If this defines the scope, then all we are left with is to layout the exact sequence of events? You haven't defined what structure is excited, or why this is important. The answer will be clear once you've got both.

Would the company then take the information, and knowing the range of frequency that the engine would generate during operations, determine whether the structure would be excited at its resonant frequency? I think so, yes.

Was the engine operated during the testing? While the musician was "playing" it? No. That would be dangerous. :p Or did the company already know its range of frequencies? It knew part of what it needed, but not all. Did the musician methodically go over the entire aircraft and catalogue the frequencies of its various components? No, he knew which component he was working on from the start.
Bolapara (Bolapara)
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Posted on Monday, June 15, 2009 - 6:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

dang it, I'm sure i read this on CNN a few years ago. I'll have to keep on remembering.

Does it have to do with breaking the sound barrier? And seeing which parts of the aircraft would crack when exposed to certain sounds?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Post Number: 1132
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Posted on Monday, June 15, 2009 - 10:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

dang it, I'm sure i read this on CNN a few years ago. I'll have to keep on remembering.

Does it have to do with breaking the sound barrier? No. This was during the early days of jets, but the sound barrier is irrelevant. And seeing which parts of the aircraft would crack when exposed to certain sounds? You're OTRT.
Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
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Posted on Tuesday, June 16, 2009 - 7:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was it a jet engine? Propellor engine? Was he bowing the actual engine components? The propellor? The turbine blades? Or was he bowing components that are attached to the engine? Near the engine?

Exciting a structure works like this -- lets say you walk up to a propeller (not while its spinning please) and whack it with a hammer (or maybe stroke it with a violin bow). It will make a pwanging noise as it vibrates at its resonant or natural frequency.

If the propeller is exposed to vibrations of various frequencies from an external source such as the engine, those vibrations will tend to be dampened out EXCEPT when the frequency is the same as the resonant frequency, at which point the structure will resonate, vibrate more and more, and become excited, possibly because it's going to be on the 11 o'clock news.

Consequently, aircraft manufacturers hire engineers whose entire jobs are to make sure that the airplane does not shake itself out of the sky. They sit next to the guys in charge of making sure the goddam wheels come down when its time to land.
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Tuesday, June 16, 2009 - 12:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was it a jet engine? This. Propellor engine? Was he bowing the actual engine components? The propellor? The turbine blades? This. Or was he bowing components that are attached to the engine? Near the engine?

Exciting a structure works like this -- lets say you walk up to a propeller (not while its spinning please) and whack it with a hammer (or maybe stroke it with a violin bow). It will make a pwanging noise as it vibrates at its resonant or natural frequency.

If the propeller is exposed to vibrations of various frequencies from an external source such as the engine, those vibrations will tend to be dampened out EXCEPT when the frequency is the same as the resonant frequency, at which point the structure will resonate, vibrate more and more, and become excited, possibly because it's going to be on the 11 o'clock news. And you've got the answer. You present it so well, too. :p


***************

Spoiler

***************


This occurred during the design of the Messerschmitt ME 262, the world's first operational jet. The engines kept seizing up until they brought in a violinist who was able to compare the frequency of the turbine blades to the rest of the engine. The frequencies turned out to be identical. The solution was a) to change the angle of the blades slightly and b) to slow the engine's operating speed from 9,000 to 8,700 RPMs.
Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
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Posted on Tuesday, June 16, 2009 - 7:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wow -- I never heard this story.

There's a story about the A10 with a similar ending -- in the early days of testing, they would shoot the anti-tank gatling gun, the engines would flame-out, the pilot would eject, the A10 would crater. Original designer advised with thick German accent, "Slow down the gun". Advice ignored by arrogant generals. 10 craters later, Generals' panties now officially in a bunch, they launched a bazillion dollar engineering study to figure out how to keep the ^!&$$! engines from flaming out. Recommendation: slow down the gun.

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