| Author | Message | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 4524 Registered: 8-2001 |
At an academic conference, I suggested that people be encouraged to smoke cigarettes. How come? | ||
| Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
New member Username: Ohlala8 Post Number: 202 Registered: 6-2009 |
medical marijuana? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 4527 Registered: 8-2001 |
Ohlala8 (Ohlala8) New member Username: Ohlala8 Post Number: 202 Registered: 6-2009 Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 8:38 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) medical marijuana? no | ||
| Buzzard (Buzzard)
New member Username: Buzzard Post Number: 1106 Registered: 6-2003 |
You suggested that people in general be encouraged to smoke cigarettes? Particular people? in particular situations? particular types of cigarettes? Were you being serious? Was this part of your academic discourse at this academic conference? Or was it part of a casual conversation? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 4533 Registered: 8-2001 |
Buzzard (Buzzard) New member Username: Buzzard Post Number: 1106 Registered: 6-2003 Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 11:20 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) You suggested that people in general be encouraged to smoke cigarettes? yes Particular people? no in particular situations? no particular types of cigarettes? no Were you being serious? yope or maybe noish Was this part of your academic discourse at this academic conference? yes Or was it part of a casual conversation? no | ||
| Buzzard (Buzzard)
New member Username: Buzzard Post Number: 1107 Registered: 6-2003 |
Was this another instance of saying something in response to something that someone else said, in order to show that what they said is wrong or ridiculous? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 4535 Registered: 8-2001 |
Buzzard (Buzzard) New member Username: Buzzard Post Number: 1107 Registered: 6-2003 Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 11:32 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Was this another instance of saying something in response to something that someone else said, in order to show that what they said is wrong or ridiculous? Yes--I was afraid that this puzzle would be too easy, but I have a much harder one waiting in the wings. | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 533 Registered: 6-2003 |
Am I right in assuming that your comment, then, was meant as reductio ad absurdum about the other person's views? Was the person talking about public policy? the philosophical right to/limitiations of liberty? The role of government regarding an individual's self-regarding choices? Was the other person talking about cigarettes? other methods of smoking? tobacco? alcohol? other intoxicating drugs? Saying that we should allow people to consume another drug, which then led onto your analogy with cigarettes? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 534 Registered: 6-2003 |
Quick amendment: In that last question, "encourage" might be a better word than "allow". If it is, feel free to substitute it as necessary. Also: in "encouraging people to smoke cigarettes", were you talking about encouraging everyone? or encouraging a specific group of people? does this correlate directly to the other person's comments? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 4536 Registered: 8-2001 |
Logician (Logician) New member Username: Logician Post Number: 533 Registered: 6-2003 Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 11:53 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Am I right in assuming that your comment, then, was meant as reductio ad absurdum about the other person's views? yes Was the person talking about public policy? no the philosophical right to/limitiations of liberty? noThe role of government regarding an individual's self-regarding choices? no Was the other person talking about cigarettes? no other methods of smoking? no tobacco? no alcohol? other intoxicating drugs? Saying that we should allow people to consume another drug, which then led onto your analogy with cigarettes? no Logician (Logician) New member Username: Logician Post Number: 534 Registered: 6-2003 Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 11:56 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Quick amendment: In that last question, "encourage" might be a better word than "allow". If it is, feel free to substitute it as necessary. The substitution would not affect my answer Also: in "encouraging people to smoke cigarettes", were you talking about encouraging everyone? yes or encouraging a specific group of people? nodoes this correlate directly to the other person's comments? yes | ||
| Buzzard (Buzzard)
New member Username: Buzzard Post Number: 1108 Registered: 6-2003 |
Was the other person talking about something(s) people can do to affect their health? to affect their expected lifespan? about anything to do with health? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 535 Registered: 6-2003 |
Was the person suggesting that cigarettes pose limited harm to people's health? that there may be some benefits? In saying that "people should be allowed to smoke cigarettes", which word(s) did you focus on/stress: people? allowed? smoke? cigarettes? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 4537 Registered: 8-2001 |
Buzzard (Buzzard) New member Username: Buzzard Post Number: 1108 Registered: 6-2003 Posted on Friday, July 17, 2009 - 12:09 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Was the other person talking about something(s) people can do to affect their health? no to affect their expected lifespan? noabout anything to do with health? yes Logician (Logician) New member Username: Logician Post Number: 535 Registered: 6-2003 Posted on Friday, July 17, 2009 - 12:15 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Was the person suggesting that cigarettes pose limited harm to people's health? no that there may be some benefits? no In saying that "people should be allowed to smoke cigarettes", which word(s) did you focus on/stress: people? allowed? smoke? cigarettes? I said, "encouraged" not "allowed." See puzzle statement. & I stressed the word "encouraged." | ||
| Alex319 (Alex319)
New member Username: Alex319 Post Number: 823 Registered: 5-2007 |
Was the other person talking about... ...the definition of "healthy"? What "health" means? How society affects our conception of "health" and "disease"? ...a particular health related behavior? You said no to "something people can do to affect their health" - was it about something people can do to affect others' health? ...health care? about who should make decisions relating to a patient's care? government-run vs. privately run health care? Was your point related to... ...the idea that if everyone smoked, nobody would be bothered by others' smoking? ...the idea that since smokers die sooner, they impose fewer old-age-related costs on others? ...the idea that being exposed to certain toxins can help you "build up a resistance" to them? | ||
| Buzzard (Buzzard)
New member Username: Buzzard Post Number: 1109 Registered: 6-2003 |
Was the other person talking about some other measure (other than something that people do for themselves) that affects people's expected life spans? something to do with medical research? Were they saying that some particular measure/research/advance extends life spans by a certain amount? Was your point that you can extend life spans by more if they are shorter to start with? Was the person talking specifically about lung/respiratory-related issues? about lung cancer? | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 1966 Registered: 1-2007 |
Can i just clarify something If you'd suggested that children should be encouraged to play in the traffic would this have gotten your point across just as effectively? Any environmental issues relevant? air pollution? Was the discussion about medical practice? new treatments? new drugs? alternative medicine? | ||
| Sundowner (Sundowner)
New member Username: Sundowner Post Number: 526 Registered: 6-2003 |
did you mean people should be encouraged to smoke instead of doing something else? smoke cigarettes instead of cigar, pipe, marijuana, ..? did you mean that smokers should be encouraged to smoke more often? that non-smokers should be encouraged to smoke? did your point relate to economy? (like: smokers support jobs in the tobacco industry, tobacco tax is important for public funding, ..) did your point imply that smoking is connected to something else that is good for health? like: if smoking is not permitted in a building, smokers have to go outside .. so, the more they smoke they more they walk. any recent legislation about smoking in public places relevant? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 4539 Registered: 8-2001 |
Alex319 (Alex319) New member Username: Alex319 Post Number: 823 Registered: 5-2007 Posted on Friday, July 17, 2009 - 3:26 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Was the other person talking about... ...the definition of "healthy"? no What "health" means? no How society affects our conception of "health" and "disease"? no ...a particular health related behavior? no You said no to "something people can do to affect their health" - was it about something people can do to affect others' health? no ...health care? no about who should make decisions relating to a patient's care? no government-run vs. privately run health care? no Was your point related to... ...the idea that if everyone smoked, nobody would be bothered by others' smoking? no ...the idea that since smokers die sooner, they impose fewer old-age-related costs on others? no ...the idea that being exposed to certain toxins can help you "build up a resistance" to them? no Buzzard (Buzzard) New member Username: Buzzard Post Number: 1109 Registered: 6-2003 Posted on Friday, July 17, 2009 - 4:04 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Was the other person talking about some other measure (other than something that people do for themselves) that affects people's expected life spans? nosomething to do with medical research? noWere they saying that some particular measure/research/advance extends life spans by a certain amount? Was your point that you can extend life spans by more if they are shorter to start with? no Was the person talking specifically about lung/respiratory-related issues? noabout lung cancer? no | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 4540 Registered: 8-2001 |
Peter365 (Peter365) New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 1966 Registered: 1-2007 Posted on Friday, July 17, 2009 - 1:37 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Can i just clarify something If you'd suggested that children should be encouraged to play in the traffic would this have gotten your point across just as effectively? no Any environmental issues relevant? noair pollution? no Was the discussion about medical practice? nonew treatments? nonew drugs? noalternative medicine? no Sundowner (Sundowner) New member Username: Sundowner Post Number: 526 Registered: 6-2003 Posted on Friday, July 17, 2009 - 3:17 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) did you mean people should be encouraged to smoke instead of doing something else? no smoke cigarettes instead of cigar, pipe, marijuana, ..? no did you mean that smokers should be encouraged to smoke more often? yesthat non-smokers should be encouraged to smoke? yes did your point relate to economy? no (like: smokers support jobs in the tobacco industry, tobacco tax is important for public funding, ..) did your point imply that smoking is connected to something else that is good for health? like: if smoking is not permitted in a building, smokers have to go outside .. so, the more they smoke they more they walk. no any recent legislation about smoking in public places relevant? no | ||
| Kdoc (Kdoc)
New member Username: Kdoc Post Number: 907 Registered: 7-2001 |
were you using the statement as a way of showing what the logical consquence of someone else's argument would be? or of your own? were you using it to point out a fault in someone's logic? by showing that the consequence would be ridiculous? were you assuming that the audience would all believe that it would be a bad thing to encourage people to smoke? therefore any argument that led to that as a logical consequence would be flawed in some way? or would be socially unacceptable? had someone said that we ought to encourage people to do something particular? and you said, if we should encourage people to do that we should, by the same argument, encourage them to smoke? is freedom of choice relevant? is it relevant that there may be, in some very specific situations, a health benefit to smoking? were you saying that we should encourage people to smoke as this would then lead to some individual benefit to them? to loss of an individual disbenefit? that there would be a benefit to others? loss of a disbenefit? that there would be s benefit to society? loss of a disbenefit? children relevant? length of life? money? unemployment? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 4550 Registered: 8-2001 |
Kdoc (Kdoc) New member Username: Kdoc Post Number: 907 Registered: 7-2001 Posted on Saturday, July 18, 2009 - 12:39 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) were you using the statement as a way of showing what the logical consquence of someone else's argument would be? yes or of your own? no were you using it to point out a fault in someone's logic? yes by showing that the consequence would be ridiculous? yes were you assuming that the audience would all believe that it would be a bad thing to encourage people to smoke? yes therefore any argument that led to that as a logical consequence would be flawed in some way? yesor would be socially unacceptable? yes had someone said that we ought to encourage people to do something particular? no and you said, if we should encourage people to do that we should, by the same argument, encourage them to smoke? no is freedom of choice relevant? no is it relevant that there may be, in some very specific situations, a health benefit to smoking? no were you saying that we should encourage people to smoke as this would then lead to some individual benefit to them? yesto loss of an individual disbenefit? no that there would be a benefit to others? no loss of a disbenefit? no that there would be s benefit to society? loss of a disbenefit? no children relevant? no length of life? noish or maybe yope money? no unemployment? no | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 541 Registered: 6-2003 |
Was the topic something to do with how some people use cigarettes for stress relief? Something to do with the cigarette itself? The constituent 'ingredients'? The act of smoking? How people often smoke in groups? What happens when people try and quit? When people actually quit? Is the supposed benefit some direct result of cigarette use? Something that people aren't doing because of the cigarette use? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 4553 Registered: 8-2001 |
Logician (Logician) New member Username: Logician Post Number: 541 Registered: 6-2003 Posted on Saturday, July 18, 2009 - 10:14 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Was the topic something to do with how some people use cigarettes for stress relief? no Something to do with the cigarette itself? yes The constituent 'ingredients'? yesThe act of smoking? yopeHow people often smoke in groups? noWhat happens when people try and quit? noWhen people actually quit? yesish Is the supposed benefit some direct result of cigarette use? yesSomething that people aren't doing because of the cigarette use? no | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 544 Registered: 6-2003 |
Is the other person's logic anything along the lines of: "It's good for people when they quit smoking"? Leading you to ponder whether we should therefore encourage people to smoke so that they can then give up? Are the addictive qualities of cigarettes relevant? The tar etc. that builds up in the lungs? The effects of being in a smoke-filled environment? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 4555 Registered: 8-2001 |
Logician (Logician) New member Username: Logician Post Number: 544 Registered: 6-2003 Posted on Saturday, July 18, 2009 - 10:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Is the other person's logic anything along the lines of: "It's good for people when they quit smoking"? noLeading you to ponder whether we should therefore encourage people to smoke so that they can then give up? no Are the addictive qualities of cigarettes relevant? yesish The tar etc. that builds up in the lungs? yesThe effects of being in a smoke-filled environment? yes | ||
| Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
New member Username: Ohlala8 Post Number: 225 Registered: 6-2009 |
Diseases/unpleasant effects caused by cigarettes relevant? Lung cancer? Emphysema? Bad breath? Coughing? Poor lung capacity? Second-hand smoke? So when you say the ingredients of cigarettes are relevant, are you referring exclusively to the aforementioned tar? Or is another ingredient relevant? Just a theory -- is there some ingredient in cigarettes that is good for you, and your argument was that we can't ignore all the negative effects because of one good one? Was the other person's comment that you criticized based on a logical fallacy? I'm going to be uber-geeky and whip out a list of fallacies. Hasty generalization ("it's good for x group of people to smoke, so it must be good for everyone")? Post hoc ("Joan smoked and the next day she won the lottery, so smoking makes you win the lottery")? Slippery slope ("If we don't allow people to smoke, then next thing you know we won't be allowing people to breathe")? Appeal to ignorance ("there's no conclusive evidence that smoking is bad, so you might as well smoke")? False dichotomy ("either we encourage people to smoke or we ban them from ever smoking again, and obviously the latter option isn't possible")? Dicto simplicitor ("smoking is good, therefore everyone should smoke," without any explanation of why smoking is good)? False analogy? Another fallacy along these lines? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 4560 Registered: 8-2001 |
Ohlala8 (Ohlala8) New member Username: Ohlala8 Post Number: 225 Registered: 6-2009 Posted on Sunday, July 19, 2009 - 5:25 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Diseases/unpleasant effects caused by cigarettes relevant? yesLung cancer? yes Emphysema? no or noishBad breath? no Coughing? noPoor lung capacity? no or noishSecond-hand smoke? no So when you say the ingredients of cigarettes are relevant, are you referring exclusively to the aforementioned tar? yes Or is another ingredient relevant? Just a theory -- is there some ingredient in cigarettes that is good for you, and your argument was that we can't ignore all the negative effects because of one good one? no Was the other person's comment that you criticized based on a logical fallacy? I'm going to be uber-geeky and whip out a list of fallacies. Hasty generalization ("it's good for x group of people to smoke, so it must be good for everyone")? noish Post hoc ("Joan smoked and the next day she won the lottery, so smoking makes you win the lottery")? no Slippery slope ("If we don't allow people to smoke, then next thing you know we won't be allowing people to breathe")? no Appeal to ignorance ("there's no conclusive evidence that smoking is bad, so you might as well smoke")? no False dichotomy ("either we encourage people to smoke or we ban them from ever smoking again, and obviously the latter option isn't possible")? no Dicto simplicitor ("smoking is good, therefore everyone should smoke," without any explanation of why smoking is good)? noFalse analogy? no Another fallacy along these lines? noish | ||
| Kdoc (Kdoc)
New member Username: Kdoc Post Number: 909 Registered: 7-2001 |
did you suggest that we should encourage people to smoke so that we could then get them all to stop? so decreasing the incidence of cancer? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 4567 Registered: 8-2001 |
doc (Kdoc) New member Username: Kdoc Post Number: 909 Registered: 7-2001 Posted on Sunday, July 19, 2009 - 11:19 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) did you suggest that we should encourage people to smoke so that we could then get them all to stop? no so decreasing the incidence of cancer? no | ||
| Bentarm (Bentarm)
New member Username: Bentarm Post Number: 1702 Registered: 6-2001 |
Was the argument you were reducing ad absurdum a statement about smoking? About quitting smoking? Starting smoking? About smokers vs. non-smokers? If the argument were true, would encouraging people to smoke make them happier? live longer? be healthier? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 4570 Registered: 8-2001 |
Bentarm (Bentarm) New member Username: Bentarm Post Number: 1702 Registered: 6-2001 Posted on Monday, July 20, 2009 - 1:32 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Was the argument you were reducing ad absurdum a statement about smoking? no About quitting smoking? no Starting smoking? no About smokers vs. non-smokers no If the argument were true, would encouraging people to smoke make them happier? yesishlive longer? no be healthier? no | ||
| Pumpkin (Pumpkin)
Moderator Username: Pumpkin Post Number: 16 Registered: 3-2002 |
Could you have made the same point by saying 'maybe we should encourage people to inject heroin'? By saying 'maybe we should encourage people to drink more alcohol'? Is the fact that smoking has a nocive effect on those other than the smoker relevant? Are any other drugs relevant? Were you questioning some general philosophical position the other person held? (eg, if they said 'I think our ultimate goal should be to reduce suffering at all costs, you might say 'well maybe we should just kill everyone right now then') | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 4586 Registered: 8-2001 |
Pumpkin (Pumpkin) Moderator Username: Pumpkin Post Number: 16 Registered: 3-2002 Posted on Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 6:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Could you have made the same point by saying 'maybe we should encourage people to inject heroin'?no By saying 'maybe we should encourage people to drink more alcohol'? no Is the fact that smoking has a nocive effect on those other than the smoker relevant? no Are any other drugs relevant? noWere you questioning some general philosophical position the other person held? yesish(eg, if they said 'I think our ultimate goal should be to reduce suffering at all costs, you might say 'well maybe we should just kill everyone right now then') not that position | ||
| Alex319 (Alex319)
New member Username: Alex319 Post Number: 833 Registered: 5-2007 |
Would the other person's argument have implied that it would be good to get lung cancer? That having lung cancer would make you happier? Was the other person's position along the lines of "doing X makes you happy," and having lung cancer would give you (or others) an opportunity to do X? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 4592 Registered: 8-2001 |
Alex319 (Alex319) New member Username: Alex319 Post Number: 833 Registered: 5-2007 Posted on Wednesday, July 22, 2009 - 2:54 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Would the other person's argument have implied that it would be good to get lung cancer? yes, no kidding! That having lung cancer would make you happier? ditto Was the other person's position along the lines of "doing X makes you happy," and having lung cancer would give you (or others) an opportunity to do X?see below *******SPOILER *********** If you don't follow popular media & professional bioethical disussions about cancer, you might be amazed, as I have been, at the popularity of the view that cancer can be a wonderful thing because of the wonderful new perspective it gives you on life. I wouldn't presume to say that no one has ever felt this way, but I've never met a sick person who has & I think the expectation that they should is just another burden on top of the burden of illness.Of course, it serves the interests of healthy people if it intimidates sick people out of complaining. At any rate, when I heard a doctor at a bioethics conference talk about how his patients said that cancer was the best thing that had ever happened to them because it made them free to be themselves (whatever that means), I suggested we encourage people to smoke so as to be more likely to improve their lives that way. He could have replied that they really just meant that cancer was not all bad. But he didn't. He said they really thought it was the best thing that had ever happened to them!The best thing that happened to this puzzle was that it got solved. Thanks, Alex! Please check out my new one. | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 552 Registered: 6-2003 |
Wha...But...Huh?! Now that's just bizarre... | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 1980 Registered: 1-2007 |
What a strange perspective. If cancer is the best thing to have happened to them I'd hate to think what was the worst. Maybe I won't quit the cigars just yet!! | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 4608 Registered: 8-2001 |
That's about my reaction (except for the cigars part!) |
