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Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 446
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Sunday, August 09, 2009 - 11:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear? Well, at least for once, it worked.
Sugarshane (Sugarshane)
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Post Number: 161
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Posted on Sunday, August 09, 2009 - 8:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

sow in this instance is a female= badger? bear? pig? was this at one time an actual living animal? stuffed animal? is taxidermy involved? are there relevant characters involved? era relevant? location? is temperature relevant? Was someone trying to do this? did it happen by accident?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 451
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Posted on Sunday, August 09, 2009 - 8:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Sugarshane, thanks for being the first one to join :-))

sow in this instance is a female= badger? bear? pig? was this at one time an actual living animal? stuffed animal? is taxidermy involved? Neither-just figurative are there relevant characters involved? Yes era relevant? Yeslocation? Yes is temperature relevant? No Was someone trying to do this? did it happen by accident? please specify "this" and "it"
Sugarshane (Sugarshane)
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Post Number: 163
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Posted on Sunday, August 09, 2009 - 8:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

To specify "this" and "it"- was somebody trying to make a silk purse? did the one time "it worked", happen by accident? so no animals are involved? is this all a metaphor for something? purse as in something a woman uses to carry personally belongings such as wallet, make up etc..??? Is "can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear" some kind of common saying that i may not be familiar with? is a well relevant? water? did somebody make something that held something of value? characters 1? 2? 5? 10? more? this century? last century? before then? in location do i need to figure out exactly what county? or enviroment? like desert? forrest?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 452
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Posted on Sunday, August 09, 2009 - 9:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

To specify "this" and "it"- was somebody trying to make a silk purse? Not really did the one time "it worked", happen by accident? yesish to yope so no animals are involved? that's correct is this all a metaphor for something? Yes purse as in something a woman uses to carry personally belongings such as wallet, make up etc..??? no Is "can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear" some kind of common saying that i may not be familiar with? Basically, it means that it is difficult to make a good product out of bad material is a well relevant? Not really water? No did somebody make something that held something of value? No characters 1? 2? 5? 10? Not characters in this sense more? this century? last century? before then? this one in location do i need to figure out exactly what county? or enviroment? like desert? forrest?The country will do
Sugarshane (Sugarshane)
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Post Number: 165
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Posted on Sunday, August 09, 2009 - 9:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

so a product of some kind was made out of lackluster material? was it used to carry something? blood? water? a liquid? food? did this product become common?
Sugarshane (Sugarshane)
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Post Number: 166
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Posted on Sunday, August 09, 2009 - 9:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

were there multiple objects involved in the product? rope involved? did it make something easier to do?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 453
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Posted on Sunday, August 09, 2009 - 9:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

were there multiple objects involved in the product? FA - the saying can be used about more things, not only for products rope involved? did it make something easier to do?
Sugarshane (Sugarshane)
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Post Number: 170
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Posted on Monday, August 10, 2009 - 8:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

is this a true story? was something created out of something else? does this involve a person that maybe grew up in poverty and then became a president, or something to that effect? involve a place? object?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 467
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Posted on Monday, August 10, 2009 - 8:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

is this a true story? Yes was something created out of something else? No does this involve a person that maybe grew up in poverty and then became a president, or something to that effect? not exactly, but you are OTRT involve a place? object? no to both (yet the location is somewhat important)
Sugarshane (Sugarshane)
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Posted on Monday, August 10, 2009 - 8:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

so more to do with a persons story/life than any idea? historic person? MLK? you said location is important, location as in country? city? state? or like inside? outside? jungle? desert? Did this take place in the USA
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 469
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Posted on Monday, August 10, 2009 - 8:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

so more to do with a persons story/life than any idea? Yes historic person? Yes MLK? What is MLK? you said location is important, location as in country? city? state? or like inside? outside? jungle? desert? Just the country Did this take place in the USA? No
Sugarshane (Sugarshane)
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Post Number: 177
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Posted on Monday, August 10, 2009 - 9:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

MLK is martin luther king. probably not him since it didn't happen in the us. did this happen in this century? 1900's? 1800's? before? is religion involved.
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 471
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Posted on Monday, August 10, 2009 - 9:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

MLK is martin luther king. probably not him since it didn't happen in the us.that's correct - thanks for the explanation did this happen in this century? 1900's? 1800's? before? before - actually, 16th century is religion involved.In a way, yes, but it would be misleading to concentrate on it too much; in fact, it is not much relevant to the puzzle
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Monday, August 17, 2009 - 1:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It seems as if I've been a little bit obscure, so I'd better rephrase the puzzle statement :

It was not so deep as a well, nor so wide as a church door, but...

Everyone took it for granted that it was going to end the other way round. They did not count on the fact that someone was going to take the effort and make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. At least this time.

Noel (Noel)
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Post Number: 379
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Posted on Tuesday, September 08, 2009 - 6:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The other way around = someone dying? Someone ending up in jail? Someone running out of money? someone becoming a nobody?

"Not so deep as a well, nor so wide as a church door", but you said an object was not relevant. So these phrases do not describe the size of something, right? Do they somehow describe the person's importance, then? The types of deeds he/she did?

The relevant person (the one who's story is a silk purse or whatever =), is it one person, or a group of people? Is he (or they) HAM?

Is there one specific event this person (or group of people) is known for? Or a long term positive thing? For example, a lifetime of public service.
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 09, 2009 - 5:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thank you, Noel, for picking this one up.:-))

The other way around = someone dying? Yesish Someone ending up in jail? Someone running out of money? someone becoming a nobody? No to the rest

"Not so deep as a well, nor so wide as a church door", but you said an object was not relevant. Yes, I did, and it holds So these phrases do not describe the size of something, right? Nevertheless, they do :-)) Do they somehow describe the person's importance, then? No The types of deeds he/she did? In a way, yes, but I can see several potential FA's lurking if you dig into this

The relevant person (the one who's story is a silk purse or whatever =), is it one person One, or a group of people? Is he (or they) HAM? Yes for all three

Is there one specific event this person (or group of people) is known for This? Or a long term positive thing? For example, a lifetime of public service.
Noel (Noel)
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Post Number: 404
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Posted on Wednesday, September 09, 2009 - 6:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The non-object they describe the size of...
A location? A geographical feature? A person? An idea? A hole?

Why "at least this time"? Is it impossible to happen another time? If so, because it won't work? Because the relevant person won't be there? Because laws have changed? Because technology has changed?
Or is it only improbable to happen again? Because no one is likely to be that motivated? Because the key circumstances are rare? Because the need is not there? Because it's not cost effective? Because culture has changed?
If it's improbable to happen again, is it any more probable than it was when it actually happened? Is it any less probable?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 09, 2009 - 7:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

he non-object they describe the size of...
A location? A geographical feature? A person? An idea? A hole? This-ish, but beware a FA

Why "at least this time"? Is it impossible to happen another time? No, but it is highly unlikely If so, because it won't work? Very probably Because the relevant person won't be there? Because laws have changed? Because technology has changed? All of these three are true, but not so much relevant
Or is it only improbable to happen again? This Because no one is likely to be that motivated? Possibly, but not very much relevant Because the key circumstances are rare? I'd say this Because the need is not there? Because it's not cost effective? Because culture has changed? This is true but irrelevant
If it's improbable to happen again, is it any more probable than it was when it actually happened? Is it any less probable? I'd say less because, as you say, culture has changed. But if you repeat the circumstances, the probability of it happening would be the same as at the time it actually happened (this is to say, very low)
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 09, 2009 - 7:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it a mostly flat hole (e.g. doorway, window, hole cut in a sheet of metal, narrow arbor)? Or a three-dimensional hole (e.g. a well, a ditch, a tunnel, a dry pond, etc.)?

Is it a hole that someone or something could pass through (e.g. a doorway or a tunnel)? Or a hole that has a definite bottom or back end that can't be passed through?

Did he create a hole? Use a hole? Fill a hole?

Is it a literal hole? A metaphorical hole?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 09, 2009 - 7:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it a mostly flat hole (e.g. doorway, window, hole cut in a sheet of metal, narrow arbor)?This Or a three-dimensional hole (e.g. a well, a ditch, a tunnel, a dry pond, etc.)?

Is it a hole that someone or something could pass through (e.g. a doorway or a tunnel)? Or a hole that has a definite bottom or back end that can't be passed through? This

Did he create a hole? This, if we define the "he" in question Use a hole? Fill a hole?

Is it a literal hole? Literal A metaphorical hole?
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 09, 2009 - 7:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I thought there was only one relevant person? Who is HAM? Is that relevant person "he"?

If not, is "he" God? Some other supernatural or spiritual being?

Is it a hole in something natural? Or something manmade?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 09, 2009 - 8:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I thought there was only one relevant person? Who is HAM? I thought there was only one relevant person? Who is HAM? There are two relevant persons, both of whom are HAM Is that relevant person "he"? One of them is

If not, is "he" God? Some other supernatural or spiritual being? No

Is it a hole in something natural? Yes Or something manmade? Yes but irr

HINT: If you want a shortcut, ask old Will :-))
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 09, 2009 - 8:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Let's call the hole maker Sam. Is Sam also the same "he" who turned a sow's ear into a silk purse (hereby referred to as the Improvement, ok?)?

Is the Improvement the same thing as making the hole? fixing the hole? As filling the hole? As going into the hole? Exiting the hole?

Was it a hole in dirt? In rock? In a tree? Is it a grave? Is it big enough to fit a person in? Does a person actually enter it at any point in the story? Exit it? Is it filled? Is it meant to be filled?

Is it a functional hole? Artistic?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 09, 2009 - 8:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Let's call the hole maker Sam. OK Is Sam also the same "he" who turned a sow's ear into a silk purse (hereby referred to as the Improvement, ok?)? Sorry, a BLOOOPER. There is a third person involved, who is also HAM and who is responsible for the Improvement. Let's call him Joe. Sorry for that.

Is the Improvement the same thing as making the hole? It resulted in making the hole, yes fixing the hole? As filling the hole? As going into the hole? Exiting the hole? No to the rest

Was it a hole in dirt? In rock? In a tree? Is it a grave? Is it big enough to fit a person in? Does a person actually enter it at any point in the story? Exit it? Is it filled? Is it meant to be filled? No to all

Is it a functional hole? Artistic? No
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 09, 2009 - 8:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So the hole maker is Sam, the Improvement-doer is Joe, and the third person is Tom. Is Tom involved in the hole making? The Improvement?

So chronologically, there was the Improvement, and then the hole was made. Right?

Was the hole a direct consequence of the Improvement? An indirect consequence? The intended consequence of the improvement? A side effect of the Improvement?

this puzzle gets more puzzling every time you answer a question, haha
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 09, 2009 - 8:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So the hole maker is Sam, the Improvement-doer is Joe, and the third person is Tom. OK Is Tom involved in the hole making? Yesish The Improvement? No

So chronologically, there was the Improvement, and then the hole was made. Right? Right.

Was the hole a direct consequence of the Improvement? This An indirect consequence? The intended consequence of the improvement? I'd say this A side effect of the Improvement?

this puzzle gets more puzzling every time you answer a question, haha Glad to hear that. I will not advice you anymore to ask old Will as it might spoyle a part of your fun, then :-))
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Thursday, September 10, 2009 - 3:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That's ok, I was still trying to figure out who old Will was anyway. Shakespeare?

How big was the hole? Pinhole sized? Smaller than an apple? Smaller than a loaf of bread? Smaller than a microwave? Smaller than a refrigerator? Smaller than a car?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Thursday, September 10, 2009 - 6:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That's ok, I was still trying to figure out who old Will was anyway. Shakespeare?
Demand me nothing: what you know, you know. From this time forth I never will speak word

How big was the hole? Pinhole sized? Smaller than an apple? Apple-sized is closest, but beware a FA Smaller than a loaf of bread? Smaller than a microwave? Smaller than a refrigerator? Smaller than a car?
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Thursday, September 10, 2009 - 2:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the hole intended for something to be inserted? Or is it the space that was left when something significant was removed? In other words, was the hole dug to serve a purpose as a hole? Or was it a side effect of something else?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Thursday, September 10, 2009 - 3:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the hole intended for something to be inserted? No Or is it the space that was left when something significant was removed? Yesish In other words, was the hole dug to serve a purpose as a hole? No Or was it a side effect of something else? Yes
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Thursday, September 10, 2009 - 3:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Joe's Improvement a legislative change? An invention? A discovery? Related to human rights? Architectural? Spiritual/religious in nature?

Was Joe's Improvement physical? Conceptual? Ideological? Philosophical?

Was Sam's hole dug? Excavated? Chiseled? Drilled? Caused by explosives? Caused by chemicals? Caused by blunt impact (something hard and heavy slamming into it)?

Was Sam's hole roughly apple sized in all directions (e.g roughly the same depth as diameter)? Or was it apple sized in diameter but much deeper? Or much shallower?
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Thursday, September 10, 2009 - 3:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Also, location: Europe? North America? South America? Asia? Africa? Australia?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Thursday, September 10, 2009 - 3:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Joe's Improvement a legislative change? An invention? A discovery? Related to human rights? Architectural? Spiritual/religious in nature? Neither

Was Joe's Improvement physical? This; no to the rest Conceptual? Ideological? Philosophical?

Was Sam's hole dug? Excavated? Chiseled? Drilled? Caused by explosives? Caused by chemicals? Caused by blunt impact (something hard and heavy slamming into it)? Neither

Was Sam's hole roughly apple sized in all directions (e.g roughly the same depth as diameter)? No, it wasn't; good question Or was it apple sized in diameter I would say yes but I can see a FA lurking but much deeper? Or much shallower? This
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Thursday, September 10, 2009 - 3:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Also, location: Europe?This North America? South America? Asia? Africa? Australia?
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Thursday, September 10, 2009 - 3:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Sam's hole in something living? Or nonliving? Was it cut? Shot?

Was Joe's Improvement artistic? Related to warfare?

Is Sam's hole approximately round? Square? oblong? rectangular? More of a slit than a hole (i.e. very, very long relative to almost nonexistant width.)

Country - (please tell me you're not going to make me list all of the European countries from the 1600s!) =)
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Thursday, September 10, 2009 - 4:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Sam's hole in something living? Yes Or nonliving? Was it cut? Yes Shot? No

Was Joe's Improvement artistic? No Related to warfare? Yesish

Is Sam's hole approximately round? Square? oblong? rectangular? More of a slit than a hole I'd say this, although I would rather say "quite" than "very, very" (i.e. very, very long relative to almost nonexistant width.)

Country - (please tell me you're not going to make me list all of the European countries from the 1600s!) = No, I am not. It's France :-))
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Thursday, September 10, 2009 - 4:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Something living: a person? An animal?

Did Sam stab someone? Or slice them? With a knife? With a sword? With some other weapon? With another object not usually thought of as a weapon?

If it was a person: Is Tom the person he stabbed / sliced? Was Sam an assassin? Did he act in self-defense? Was Sam's attack planned? Was Sam a solider? Was the stabbing accidental?

Did Joe make the weapon? Make a change to the weapon? Plan the attack?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Thursday, September 10, 2009 - 4:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Something living: a person? This An animal?

Did Sam stab someone? Or slice them? This is closest; I'd rather say cut With a knife? With a sword? This With some other weapon? With another object not usually thought of as a weapon?

If it was a person: Is Tom the person he stabbed / sliced? Yes Was Sam an assassin? No Did he act in self-defense? Yope - not directly Was Sam's attack planned? Yes Was Sam a solider? No Was the stabbing accidental? No

Did Joe make the weapon? No Make a change to the weapon? No Plan the attack? Yesish
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Thursday, September 10, 2009 - 4:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Tom die? Was he badly wounded?

Was Sam defending Joe? Defending Joe's Improvement?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Thursday, September 10, 2009 - 7:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Tom die? Yes Was he badly wounded? I'd say seriously but not mortally

Was Sam defending Joe? No Defending Joe's Improvement? No
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Thursday, September 10, 2009 - 7:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So wait...Tom died, but not from the cut?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Thursday, September 10, 2009 - 7:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So wait...Tom died, but not from the cut? He did not die from the cut as such but due to his own behaviour after he received it, at least the official version has it. However, it is irrelevant to our puzzle; the only relevant thing for us is that he received the cut.
Noel (Noel)
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Post Number: 426
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Thursday, September 10, 2009 - 8:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Tom a French king? Other French royalty? Other French nobility? Nobility of an enemy country of France? Royalty of an enemy country?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Username: Alhucema

Post Number: 967
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Thursday, September 10, 2009 - 8:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Tom a French king? Other French royalty? Other French nobility? This Nobility of an enemy country of France? Royalty of an enemy country?
Noel (Noel)
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Username: Noel

Post Number: 427
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Thursday, September 10, 2009 - 8:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Sam (the sword-wielder) a guard? Another noble? A family member of Tom? French? A knight?

Dueling relevant? A Tournament?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Username: Alhucema

Post Number: 969
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Thursday, September 10, 2009 - 8:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Sam (the sword-wielder) a guard? No Another noble? This A family member of Tom? No French? Yes A knight? No

Dueling relevant? Yes A Tournament?
Noel (Noel)
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Username: Noel

Post Number: 429
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Posted on Thursday, September 10, 2009 - 9:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sam and Tom were dueling? Did Sam win? Did Tom? Did Sam survive?

What were they dueling for? A title? Money? Prestige and adoration? A feud? A woman? Defending someone's honor?

Is Joe the king? The person who arranged the duel? The person who trained Sam? The person who trained Tom?

Hmm, did Joe take an unlikely fighter (Sam), train him even though everyone said it was a waste of time, and Sam ended up besting Tom in a duel?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Username: Alhucema

Post Number: 971
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Saturday, September 12, 2009 - 6:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sam and Tom were dueling? Yes Did Sam win? Yes Did Tom? No Did Sam survive? Yes

What were they dueling for? A title? Money? Prestige and adoration? A feud? A woman? Sort-ish of Defending someone's honor? This

Is Joe the king? No The person who arranged the duel? No The person who trained Sam? Yes The person who trained Tom? No

Hmm, did Joe take an unlikely fighter (Sam), train him even though everyone said it was a waste of time, and Sam ended up besting Tom in a duel? Yes. I think you've got the basic idea, and I can post the


***********SPOILER************

Sam was in fact Guy Chabot, Baron de Jarnac, who had in 1547 with Tom - François de Vivonne, sieur de La Châtaigneraie - the most famous duel of the whole sixteenth-century in France.

Rather than an ordinary duel, it was a judicial one, the last medieval-style "judicium dei" in France, in the presence of the King and the entire court.

Basically, La Chataigneraie accused Jarnac of being kept by his stepmother and having an affair with her. Jarnac called him a liar and was called out for satisfaction.

Now, La Chataigneraie was one of the best fencers and fighters in the country, while Jarnac was quite a lousy one. Being well aware of the disproportion, he asked an Italian fencing master called Captain Giuseppe Caizo (our Joe) to give him fencing lessons. Italian fencing school of that time was quite different from the French one, and sometimes used what we would call dirty tricks.

Caizo, a seasoned swordsman, knew that he had no chance to make from a poor fencer an excellent one in less than a month's time. So he gave him a sound advice - in fact, perhaps the best possible given the circumstances - that his only chance was to surprise his opponent by attacking quickly before he himself became tired, unexpectedly and in order to put La Chataigneraie out of action.

I assume they were training a single blow all over the month - a low cut below the knee, which was meant to cut the opponent's tendons. Quite mean, isn't it? But it worked: after a few introductory attacks, Jarnac struck his blow at his opponent's calf, La Chataigneraie made a thrust back, and Jarnac cut his other leg.

The King then declared Jarnac a winner, and his honour was restored.

There are several versions of what happened to La Chataigneraie. Most of them coincide that his wound as such was not mortal and that he died of rage of being defeated by a much weaker adversary. Some say he tore the bandages from his wound and bled to death, I've even read a medical opinion that he was intentionally moving his legs to bleed to death. Had he been more disciplined and if he received proper treatment, he would most probably have survived.

Jarnac lost his life several years later in another duel - a proof that the transformation of a sow's ear into a silk purse was not a permanent one.

Jarnac became immortal in a quite strange manner - the expression "coup de Jarnac" in French means something like a "stab in the back"


Thank you all for participating, and to Noel for scoring the winning hit!

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