| Author | Message | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 2094 Registered: 1-2007 |
When I heard that John is urging a no vote in the upcoming Irish referendum on the Lisbon Treaty I was surprised . However on hearing his reasoning it made perfect sense. Please explain. I'm betting this will be quick. | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 902 Registered: 11-2008 |
Quorum relevant? Is John for the Treaty? Against? | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 2095 Registered: 1-2007 |
Quorum relevant? no Is John for the Treaty? Against? ahem..Neither | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 590 Registered: 6-2003 |
Interesting... Does John believe: "If you don't know [enough about the Treaty], vote no"? Were you surprised: because he's not Irish (or European?), so might not be expected to care? Because he doesn't care much about politics usually? Because he's an anarchist? | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 2097 Registered: 1-2007 |
Interesting... we'll see Does John believe: "If you don't know [enough about the Treaty], vote no"? No Were you surprised: because he's not Irish (or European?), so might not be expected to care? no Because he doesn't care much about politics usually? yes Because he's an anarchist? no | ||
| Ferrets101 (Ferrets101)
New member Username: Ferrets101 Post Number: 101 Registered: 8-2009 |
Would it work for any and all referendums if they were substituted in this puzzle for the referendum Lisbon Treaty? Is the referendum on Lisbon Treaty the only referendum this puzzle would work for? Would it work if it were a local referendum to expand the high school? If it were a national referendum to change the Constitution? | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 2098 Registered: 1-2007 |
Would it work for any and all referendums if they were substituted in this puzzle for the referendum Lisbon Treaty? Yes (Isn't it nice that referendums is an acceptable plural:o)) Is the referendum on Lisbon Treaty the only referendum this puzzle would work for? no Would it work if it were a local referendum to expand the high school? No If it were a national referendum to change the Constitution? yes | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 591 Registered: 6-2003 |
So does he have particularly relevant views against changing the Constitution in any circumstance? About the current Irish government? Irish governments in general? The influence of other nations on Ireland? | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 2099 Registered: 1-2007 |
So does he have particularly relevant views against changing the Constitution in any circumstance? About the current Irish government? Irish governments in general? The influence of other nations on Ireland? No to all | ||
| Bentarm (Bentarm)
New member Username: Bentarm Post Number: 1729 Registered: 6-2001 |
Is John urging people to vote no? Or urging them not to vote? | ||
| Ferrets101 (Ferrets101)
New member Username: Ferrets101 Post Number: 102 Registered: 8-2009 |
Wait.... if it would work for any and all referendums, then how could it not work for a local referendum to expand the high school? | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 2100 Registered: 1-2007 |
Is John urging people to vote no? this Or urging them not to vote? So no | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 2101 Registered: 1-2007 |
Wait.... if it would work for any and all referendums, then how could it not work for a local referendum to expand the high school? In Ireland we don't have such referendums so I doubt that it would arise | ||
| Ferrets101 (Ferrets101)
New member Username: Ferrets101 Post Number: 103 Registered: 8-2009 |
Well, would it work for such a referendum in the United States? (where I know we have them, because there was one such referendum at my high school two months ago or so)? Would it work for any referendum at all in the United States? What about in England? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 592 Registered: 6-2003 |
Is it correct to say that John would advocate a no vote, in principle, in any referendum? Would advocate just voting in any referendum, regardless of whether one votes yes or no? If there was a "neither of the above" option in the referendum (which might, perhaps, kick the issue back to the government / EU for re-consideration), would John instead advocate voting that way? And voting no is simply the best way under the current system of achieving the same thing? Is it something to do with the nature of referendums? Of the democratic process? | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 2102 Registered: 1-2007 |
Well, would it work for such a referendum in the United States? I don't think so but am not sure (where I know we have them, because there was one such referendum at my high school two months ago or so)? Would it work for any referendum at all in the United States? as above sorry What about in England again i don't know. To the best of my knowledge referendums in the UK are very rare indeed | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 2103 Registered: 1-2007 |
Is it correct to say that John would advocate a no vote, in principle, in any referendum? yes but be careful Would advocate just voting in any referendum, regardless of whether one votes yes or no? no If there was a "neither of the above" option in the referendum (which might, perhaps, kick the issue back to the government / EU for re-consideration), would John instead advocate voting that way? yes he probably would And voting no is simply the best way under the current system of achieving the same thing? yes Is it something to do with the nature of referendums? no but maybe you should define what you mean by the nature of... Of the democratic process? The nature of Ireland's democratic process of late is relevant | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 594 Registered: 6-2003 |
By the nature of referendums, I meant something along the lines of: does John believe, in principle, that they shouldn't happen? That instead, elected Parliamentarians should vote on the matter? Is it relevant that the upcoming referendum will be the second attempt to secure a yes vote from Ireland? That the content of the "Irish Guarantees" constitute a change between what was voted on the first time and what will be voted on the second time? That, when it was the EU Constitution, the French and Dutch populations weren't asked to vote a second time? Did John vote no on the first EU referendum last year? (Or, if you don't know, do you think he probably did?) Would he also have voted no on the other referendums that allowed the ratification of EU treaties? (Amsterdam, Maastricht etc.) Generally, on the other referendums that proposed alterations to the Irish constitution? | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 2104 Registered: 1-2007 |
By the nature of referendums, I meant something along the lines of: does John believe, in principle, that they shouldn't happen? no That instead, elected Parliamentarians should vote on the matter? no Is it relevant that the upcoming referendum will be the second attempt to secure a yes vote from Ireland? yes That the content of the "Irish Guarantees" constitute a change between what was voted on the first time and what will be voted on the second time? but no to this That, when it was the EU Constitution, the French and Dutch populations weren't asked to vote a second time? no Did John vote no on the first EU referendum last year? no(Or, if you don't know, do you think he probably did?) Would he also have voted no on the other referendums that allowed the ratification of EU treaties? no(Amsterdam, Maastricht etc.) Generally, on the other referendums that proposed alterations to the Irish constitution? no | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 596 Registered: 6-2003 |
So would John characterise the second referendum as an attempt to bully Ireland into voting yes? And that the voters shouldn't yield to the pressure? Leading to his belief that voters should vote no if they voted no before, and/or vote no anyway just to spite the Government / the EU? | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 2106 Registered: 1-2007 |
So would John characterise the second referendum as an attempt to bully Ireland into voting yes? No And that the voters shouldn't yield to the pressure? no Leading to his belief that voters should vote no if they voted no before, and/or vote no anyway just to spite the Government / the EU? no that's not his motivation OK I've let this go for too long without telling you that there's a major FA going on | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 223 Registered: 5-2009 |
Will John be allowed to vote in the referendum himself? If so, will he probably vote "no"? | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 2107 Registered: 1-2007 |
Will John be allowed to vote in the referendum himself? No If so, will he probably vote "no"? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 224 Registered: 5-2009 |
Will John not be allowed to vote because - he is not a citizen of the Republic of Ireland (or any country whose citizens may be allowed to vote)? - he does not live in the Republic of Ireland (or any place from where people may be allowed to vote)? - he is too young to vote? - he is not a human at all? - he lost his voting right due to a criminal conviction? - he didn't register as a voter or failed to complete another formality necessary for voters? - he is legally incapacitated (e.g. because of a mental disorder)? - there is some other legal restriction on who is allowed to vote, and this restriction apllies to him? - the voting authorities erroneously or illegaly didn't put him in the electoral register, didn't send him a polling card etc. and he somehow can't get them to fix the problem? - he lost or destroyed his polling card etc. and won't get another one? - he already cast an invalid absentee/early vote? - he already cast an absentee/early vote, and this vote got lost or destroyed? | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 2108 Registered: 1-2007 |
Will John not be allowed to vote because - he is not a citizen of the Republic of Ireland (or any country whose citizens may be allowed to vote)? - he does not live in the Republic of Ireland (or any place from where people may be allowed to vote)? - he is too young to vote? this - he is not a human at all? - he lost his voting right due to a criminal conviction? - he didn't register as a voter or failed to complete another formality necessary for voters? - he is legally incapacitated (e.g. because of a mental disorder)? - there is some other legal restriction on who is allowed to vote, and this restriction apllies to him? - the voting authorities erroneously or illegaly didn't put him in the electoral register, didn't send him a polling card etc. and he somehow can't get them to fix the problem? - he lost or destroyed his polling card etc. and won't get another one? - he already cast an invalid absentee/early vote? - he already cast an absentee/early vote, and this vote got lost or destroyed? excellent LTPF list of reasons one can't vote in an election | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 226 Registered: 5-2009 |
excellent LTPF list of reasons one can't vote in an election And the result? It is the most simple reason you can imagine... Would John also be urging a no vote if he was old enough to vote? If people of his age were allowed to vote? If there were no age restrictions on voting at all? An idea: Does he want to vote on the Lisbon Treaty and hopes there will be a third vote in case it is rejected now? | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 2109 Registered: 1-2007 |
excellent LTPF list of reasons one can't vote in an election And the result? It is the most simple reason you can imagine... I wanted to see how long i could let this go before someone thought to ask whether John was H?A?M? A nice demonstration of the danger of assumption Would John also be urging a no vote if he was old enough to vote? He might but not for the reason that he is now If people of his age were allowed to vote? yes If there were no age restrictions on voting at all? yes An idea: Does he want to vote on the Lisbon Treaty and hopes there will be a third vote in case it is rejected now? No but something in this question is very relevant | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 1486 Registered: 5-2003 |
Is a future election in which he will be old enough to vote relevant? | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 2113 Registered: 1-2007 |
Is a future election in which he will be old enough to vote relevant? no | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 635 Registered: 7-2009 |
So his age is relevant for reasons other than his inability to vote? | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 2162 Registered: 1-2007 |
So his age is relevant for reasons other than his inability to vote? Yes. As this has gone a little cold and the referendum is tomorrow i'll give you some assistance. John is 9 years old | ||
| Sundowner (Sundowner)
New member Username: Sundowner Post Number: 541 Registered: 6-2003 |
So he was born in 2000? relevant? Did he also urge a no vote in the first referendum? did he benefit in some way from the result of the first referendum? and expects that he might benefit in the same way if the second referendum also ends with "No"? Does he urge specific people to vote no? his parents? his relatives? Does he think no voters might benefit in some way? that he might benefit if his parents vote no? (even if the referendum as such succeeds) | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 2172 Registered: 1-2007 |
So he was born in 2000? yes relevant? not especially . What is relevant is that John is a child Did he also urge a no vote in the first referendum? No. It's likely he wouldn't know about the benefit of a No vote then did he benefit in some way from the result of the first referendum? yes and expects that he might benefit in the same way if the second referendum also ends with "No"? yes Does he urge specific people to vote no? his parents? this one his relatives? and probably this as well Does he think no voters might benefit in some way? definately not that he might benefit if his parents vote no? (even if the referendum as such succeeds)No the referendum would have to be defeated for the benefit to have a chance of being realised. I'd like this killed off by polling day tomorrow so I'll throw in another hint. Can you list some things a child might hope for | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 655 Registered: 7-2009 |
Is he hoping to get a day off school? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 337 Registered: 5-2009 |
Is he hoping someone will give him sweets? Toys? | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 2174 Registered: 1-2007 |
Is he hoping to get a day off school? yes ************Spoiler************* Well Done Noel In Ireland when we go to the polls in an election or referendum the polling stations are local schools so the kids get a day off school for any election. John has noticed the Irish Government's recent trend of holding a second referendum when EU treaties are rejected by the electorate so naturally he is hoping Lisbon get's defeated again so he'll stand a good chance of another day off sometime in the future. It's certainly the most logical arguement for a NO vote that i've heard so far |
