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Logician (Logician)
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Post Number: 615
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 6:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Like any other scrund, this puzzle involves someone holding a mistaken belief about something. The only real difference is that this isn't based on personal experience.

He thought, quite reasonably, they were being patriotic.

They weren't.
Noel (Noel)
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Post Number: 1425
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Posted on Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 7:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is he included in they?

Patriotic by an action? Something they said? Something they were wearing? Something they were displaying?
Markobr (Markobr)
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Post Number: 555
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Posted on Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 8:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Country relevant? If so, LTPF list of countries.
Century relevant? If so, LTPF list of centuries.

Does he know them personally? Is he at the same place as they are?
Logician (Logician)
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Post Number: 616
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Posted on Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 9:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is he included in they? no

Patriotic by an action? yes Something they said? Something they were wearing? Something they were displaying? no to rest

Country relevant? If so, LTPF list of countries. the UK
Century relevant? If so, LTPF list of centuries. 20th

Does he know them personally? not necessarily Is he at the same place as they are? no
Noel (Noel)
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Post Number: 1427
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Posted on Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 9:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was it a short term action (along the lines of saluting?)
Or a long term action (such as lobbying parliament?)

Did they think they were being patriotic?

Were they actually being UNpatriotic? Or neutral/unrelated?
Markobr (Markobr)
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Post Number: 558
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 9:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is a certain part of the UK especially relevant? England? Scotland? Wales? Northern Ireland?

Are they in the UK? Is he?
Are they citizens of the UK? Is he one?

Does he see them while they act (e.g. on TV)? Hear of the action? Read about it?

Are their actions especially un-patriotic? Or simply not motivated by patriotism?
Twilightseeker (Twilightseeker)
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Post Number: 82
Registered: 2-2009
Posted on Friday, December 18, 2009 - 12:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is his occupation/gender/race/nationality/other attribute relevant?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Post Number: 1993
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Posted on Friday, December 18, 2009 - 1:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does it involve a salute of some sort?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Post Number: 254
Registered: 11-2009
Posted on Friday, December 18, 2009 - 6:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

along the same lines - were they actually being rude, rather than patriotic?
Logician (Logician)
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Post Number: 617
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Posted on Friday, December 18, 2009 - 1:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was it a short term action (along the lines of saluting?) yesish
Or a long term action (such as lobbying parliament?) noish

Did they think they were being patriotic? no

Were they actually being UNpatriotic? yes Or neutral/unrelated? so no

Is a certain part of the UK especially relevant? no England? Scotland? Wales? Northern Ireland?

Are they in the UK? Is he? yes to both
Are they citizens of the UK? Is he one? yes to both

Does he see them while they act (e.g. on TV)? no... Hear of the action? Read about it? either of these

Is his occupation/gender/race/nationality/other attribute relevant? no

Does it involve a salute of some sort? no

along the same lines - were they actually being rude, rather than patriotic? in the same way as they were being unpatriotic, yes
Twilightseeker (Twilightseeker)
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Post Number: 88
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Posted on Friday, December 18, 2009 - 10:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were they trying to be unpatriotic? Were they protesters? Was it related to something they were wearing? saying? writing/speaking?

is there violence involved here? is this form of being unpatriotic legal? generally socially acceptable in context?

Was this a large group of people? More than 2? 10+? A large demographic?

Does this involve the Queen/royalty? Navy/military? Parliament/other legal body?
Logician (Logician)
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Post Number: 618
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Posted on Saturday, December 19, 2009 - 6:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were they trying to be unpatriotic? yes Were they protesters? define? Was it related to something they were wearing? saying? writing/speaking? none of these

is there violence involved here? no is this form of being unpatriotic legal? yes generally socially acceptable in context? only if the so a monarchist / against displays of anti-monarchism generally

Was this a large group of people? yes More than 2? 10+? 10+++ would probably be more accurate ;) A large demographic? insofar as it's a large group in general, yes

Does this involve the Queen/royalty? yes Navy/military? Parliament/other legal body? none of these
Logician (Logician)
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Post Number: 619
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Posted on Saturday, December 19, 2009 - 6:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Semantics correction:only if you're a monarchist...
Markobr (Markobr)
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Post Number: 561
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Posted on Saturday, December 19, 2009 - 8:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

He reads or hears about the action. Does he misunderstand something about the physical course of the action? About the context of the action? Just about the group's motives?

Is he a monarchist? Does he think the action is directed against (displays of) anti-monarchism?

The size of the group: 10-50? 51-100? 101-500? 501-2500? 2500-10000? 10000-25000? 25000-100000? 100000-500000? More than 500000?

Elections relevant? Demonstrations? Flashmobs? Political parties? Violent political activism?

Is the Internet relevant?
Logician (Logician)
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Post Number: 621
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Posted on Sunday, December 20, 2009 - 12:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

He reads or hears about the action. Does he misunderstand something about the physical course of the action? About the context of the action? Just about the group's motives? a mixture of these three, depending on one's viewpoint

Is he a monarchist? irr. Does he think the action is directed against (displays of) anti-monarchism? no

The size of the group: 10-50? 51-100? 101-500? 501-2500? 2500-10000? 10000-25000? 25000-100000? 100000-500000? More than 500000? Don't know/indeterminate - probably between 10,000 and 100,000

Elections relevant? Demonstrations Flashmobs? Political parties? Violent political activism? no to all

Is the Internet relevant? no
Markobr (Markobr)
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Post Number: 565
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Posted on Sunday, December 20, 2009 - 10:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were all the 10.000 to 100.000 people assembled at one place? Assembled in several places but usually at least 20 of them in one place? Did they usually act in smaller groups? Everyone on his/her own?

Are they all H? A? F?

Pictures of the Queen relevant? Wild guess: Maybe on stamps?
Logician (Logician)
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Post Number: 622
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Posted on Sunday, December 20, 2009 - 1:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were all the 10.000 to 100.000 people assembled at one place? Assembled in several places but usually at least 20 of them in one place? Did they usually act in smaller groups? Everyone on his/her own? this one

Are they all H? yes A? probably F? irrelevant

Pictures of the Queen relevant? no Wild guess: Maybe on stamps?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Post Number: 897
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Posted on Sunday, December 20, 2009 - 2:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the group do this once? Multiple times? During a period of time? Did they show disrespect for the Queen? The flag? Something else? Would anybody doing what they did be considered to show disrespect? Satire involved? Irony?
Logician (Logician)
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Post Number: 623
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Posted on Sunday, December 20, 2009 - 3:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the group do this once? this Multiple times? no During a period of time? depending on your understanding of the action, could be this too Did they show disrespect for the Queen? yes The flag? Something else? no to both Would anybody doing what they did be considered to show disrespect? yes Satire involved? Irony? no to both
Twilightseeker (Twilightseeker)
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Post Number: 92
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Posted on Monday, December 21, 2009 - 11:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The event/action of this group--did it happen within the last 500 years? 100? 50? 20? 5? Is it a widely known occasion in the UK? In the world?
Logician (Logician)
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Post Number: 624
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Posted on Monday, December 21, 2009 - 1:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The event/action of this group--did it happen within the last 500 years? 100? 50? within the last 50 years, but not 20 20? 5? Is it a widely known occasion in the UK? In the world? not sure - could be well known, or might be a niche within which I'm blind to the outside ;)
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Post Number: 921
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Posted on Monday, December 21, 2009 - 1:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Could anyone reasonably think they were being patriotic? Or was it quite plain to see that they weren't, but for some peculiar reason he had good reason to belive they were? Is he HAM? HCM?
Is he royalty? Did they intend to decieve him?
Logician (Logician)
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Post Number: 625
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Posted on Monday, December 21, 2009 - 2:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Could anyone reasonably think they were being patriotic? perhaps, if they didn't know the background/context in question Or was it quite plain to see that they weren't, but for some peculiar reason he had good reason to belive they were? no Is he HAM? HCM? either of these would work
Is he royalty? Did they intend to decieve him? no to both
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Post Number: 930
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Posted on Monday, December 21, 2009 - 2:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the group known for being against the Queen? Did they do their thing on a special day? Holiday? Was the event broadcast? Newsworthy? Did the group assemble? Or do it all over the country? Were they percieved as showing respect? Or showing disrespect, but for something else?
Was the Queen present when they did it?
Logician (Logician)
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Post Number: 626
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Posted on Monday, December 21, 2009 - 9:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the group known for being against the Queen? no... Did they do their thing on a special day? no, with a very small ish Holiday? no, once again with a very small ish Was the event broadcast? yope Newsworthy? yes Did the group assemble? no Or do it all over the country? yes Were they percieved as showing respect? yes Or showing disrespect, but for something else? no
Was the Queen present when they did it? no
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Post Number: 952
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Posted on Monday, December 21, 2009 - 10:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did it become a special day after they had done it on that day? Was it a protest? Against something specific at that time? A strike? Unions relevant?
Logician (Logician)
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Post Number: 627
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Posted on Tuesday, December 22, 2009 - 12:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did it become a special day after they had done it on that day? no Was it a protest? yes Against something specific at that time? yope A strike? Unions relevant? no to both
Markobr (Markobr)
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Post Number: 583
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Posted on Tuesday, December 22, 2009 - 10:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Could this have happened in a kingdom other than the UK? A kingdom with a queen/king different from that of the UK? In a republic (take, say, the president instead of the king/queen)?

Was it a protest against something the Queen did? Other royalty? The government? Patriotic people?
Twilightseeker (Twilightseeker)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 3:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the people do this in the privacy of their homes? At work? In public? Just in general/everywhere?

Did they wear something? Say something? Make a type of gesture? Not wear/say/do something?
Logician (Logician)
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Post Number: 628
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Posted on Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 3:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Could this have happened in a kingdom other than the UK? no A kingdom with a queen/king different from that of the UK? no In a republic (take, say, the president instead of the king/queen)? no

Was it a protest against something the Queen did? Other royalty? The government? Patriotic people? yes to all, but only for svv of "did"

Did the people do this in the privacy of their homes? At work? In public? yesish Just in general/everywhere? no to rest

Did they wear something? Say something? Make a type of gesture? Not wear/say/do something? no to these...
Noel (Noel)
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Post Number: 1469
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Posted on Tuesday, January 05, 2010 - 7:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they sing something? A patriotic song? God Save the Queen?
Logician (Logician)
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Post Number: 631
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Posted on Thursday, January 07, 2010 - 7:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they sing something? no A patriotic song? no God Save the Queen? yes
Noel (Noel)
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Post Number: 1481
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Posted on Thursday, January 07, 2010 - 10:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hmm, so "God Save the Queen" was involved, but they didn't sing it? Did they play it on an instrument? On a stereo system/loudspeaker? Display the text? Read the text? Say the phrase "God Save the Queen"? Display the phrase "God Save the Queen"?
Logician (Logician)
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Post Number: 632
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Posted on Saturday, January 09, 2010 - 11:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'll answer these questions directly, but an FA may be present. (But it is not the cause of the number of no's in the following answers.) So beware...

Hmm, so "God Save the Queen" was involved, but they didn't sing it? correct Did they play it on an instrument? On a stereo system/loudspeaker? Display the text? Read the text? Say the phrase "God Save the Queen"? Display the phrase "God Save the Queen"? no to the rest
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 2:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

God Save the Queen - is the song relevant? Or the phrase? If it's the song, is the following relevant: the lyrics? The tune? A recording of it? A performance? The composer of the song?
God relevant? Religion?
Logician (Logician)
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Post Number: 633
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Posted on Friday, January 15, 2010 - 2:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

God Save the Queen - is the song relevant? yes Or the phrase? no If it's the song, is the following relevant: the lyrics? yes The tune? no A recording of it? yes A performance? no The composer of the song? no
God relevant? Religion? no to both
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Saturday, January 16, 2010 - 2:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it a particular line in the lyrics that is relevant? A particular stanza? the entirety of the lyrics? Or just the general idea of the lyrics?
Logician (Logician)
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Post Number: 634
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Posted on Saturday, January 16, 2010 - 3:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it a particular line in the lyrics that is relevant? A particular stanza? no to both the entirety of the lyrics? Or just the general idea of the lyrics? both of these, in complementary ways
Hominid (Hominid)
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Posted on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 9:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is he playing a recording of the song? Is someone else? Is it relevant who originally created the recording? Was the recording of a parody of the song? Were they indoors? Were they outdoors? Was the queen present? Did she know about this? Did she know they were being unpatriotic.

Was this Queen Elizabeth? Queen Victoria? Was this during Elizabeth's reign? Victoria's? Was this in the 1950s? '60s? '70s? '80s? '90s? Is it really relevant that this was in the 20th century, or is that just an appropriate time for it to take place?
Logician (Logician)
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Post Number: 635
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Posted on Monday, January 25, 2010 - 9:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is he playing a recording of the song? Is someone else? no to both Is it relevant who originally created the recording? noish Was the recording of a parody of the song? FA, no recording involved Were they indoors? Were they outdoors? neither in particular - more outdoors than indoors, but beware FA Was the queen present? no Did she know about this? maybe Did she know they were being unpatriotic. if she knew that it was happening, then yes she would

Was this Queen Elizabeth? yes Queen Victoria? Was this during Elizabeth's reign? yes Victoria's? Was this in the 1950s? '60s? '70s? '80s? '90s? the 70s Is it really relevant that this was in the 20th century, or is that just an appropriate time for it to take place? It would have been impossible for this to happen before the 20th Century.
Hominid (Hominid)
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Posted on Monday, January 25, 2010 - 11:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is there a parody of the song involved? An alternate version? Was he just an average passerby? Can we call him Iain?
Torquemada (Torquemada)
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Posted on Tuesday, January 26, 2010 - 9:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does "God Save the Queen" refer to the national anthem? Did he think it did? Does this have anything to do with the Sex Pistols and their single "God Save the Queen" in 1977?

On a punt:
Does he think, because he only knows the name of the song, that large numbers of people are buying the single out of a sense of patriotism in the Silver Jubilee year, whereas a basic knowledge of the lyrics would make it very clear that the reverse is true?
Logician (Logician)
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Post Number: 637
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Posted on Saturday, January 30, 2010 - 11:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

***** SPOILER *****

Usually, I would at this point write a summary of the solution. Thanfully, however, Torquemada has been very kind and written one out already in the form of a correct guess, which I reproduce below. Well done :-)


Does this have anything to do with the Sex Pistols and their single "God Save the Queen" in 1977?

Does he think, because he only knows the name of the song, that large numbers of people are buying the single out of a sense of patriotism in the Silver Jubilee year, whereas a basic knowledge of the lyrics would make it very clear that the reverse is true?

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