| Author | Message | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 771 Registered: 5-2009 |
I'm afraid more of them worked for the villains. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 1323 Registered: 4-2010 |
Are they guilty of: Murder? Blackmail? Kidnapping? Drug-related crime? Embezzling? Arms dealing? Smuggling? Human trafficking? People smuggling? Other crime? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 773 Registered: 5-2009 |
Are they guilty of: This is very difficult to answer. They didn't personally commit a crime. The acts they were involved in weren't generally considered as criminal or immoral. This did change, so the general opinion today would be (for the acts they were involved in): Murder? Yes. Blackmail? May have played a role in certain cases. Kidnapping? Something alike Drug-related crime? Embezzling? Arms dealing? Smuggling? Human trafficking? People smuggling? Other crime? Yes. No to others. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 1328 Registered: 4-2010 |
Did this occur in [LTPF list of centuries]? On [LTPF list of continents]? The villains = HAM? HAF? Mixed? "Them" = the victims? HAM? HAF? Mixed? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 775 Registered: 5-2009 |
Did this occur in [LTPF list of centuries]? Mostly 16th and 17th. On [LTPF list of continents]? Europe. The villains = HAM? Almost all of them. HAF? Maybe a few. Mixed? "Them" = the victims? Rephrase. HAM? HAF? This. Mixed? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 1330 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is "them" the "innocent victims" in the title? Is prostitution involved? The sex trade? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 777 Registered: 5-2009 |
Is "them" the "innocent victims" in the title? Yes. Is prostitution involved? No. The sex trade? No. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 1336 Registered: 4-2010 |
Are the "victims" dead now? Is the mob involved? Were the victims married to the villains? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 779 Registered: 5-2009 |
Correction to my last answer. The answer to the question Is "them" the "innocent victims" in the title? should be: Yesish. Beware of FA. Explore. Are the "victims" dead now? Yes. Is the mob involved? Mobs play a certain role in the general picture but not a central one. Were the victims married to the villains? No. | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 2170 Registered: 9-2009 |
Were the victims: killed? Tortured? Terrorized? Hunted? Injured? Deprived of something? Forced to do something? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 781 Registered: 5-2009 |
Were the victims: killed? Tortured? Terrorized? Hunted? Injured? Deprived of something? Forced to do something? Yes for all although not everything for every single victim. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 1353 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is the country relevant? If so, [LTPF list of European countries]? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 786 Registered: 5-2009 |
Is the country relevant? If so, [LTPF list of European countries]? Many countries are relevant, but mostly today's Germany, Switzerland, France, Poland and Netherlands. | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 2189 Registered: 9-2009 |
Witch hunts/witch burning relevant? Innocent victims = witches? Villains: church/inquisition? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 788 Registered: 5-2009 |
Witch hunts/witch burning relevant? Yes. Innocent victims = witches? Being an innocent victim means being persecuted as a witch. for Villains: church/inquisition? The persecutors (many of them secular authorities). | ||
| Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
New member Username: Ohlala8 Post Number: 627 Registered: 6-2009 |
So the puzzle statement can now be read as "I'm afraid some of the accused witches worked for the witch hunters"? Does this mean that the witch hunters hired plants to be fake executed for witchcraft? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 790 Registered: 5-2009 |
So the puzzle statement can now be read as "I'm afraid some of the accused witches worked for the witch hunters"? No. It's more complicated due to the nature of the scrund. Does this mean that the witch hunters hired plants to be fake executed for witchcraft? No. | ||
| Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
New member Username: Ohlala8 Post Number: 638 Registered: 6-2009 |
Okay. Looking back, "them" is only yesishly referring to the victims, whom we have now established are the accused witches. But "the villains" unambiguously refers to witch hunters? Is "them" some subset of accused witches? Accused witches, plus others? "Worked for" in what way: did they perform some service of value to the villains? In exchange for payment? (monetary? some valuable good? an equivalent service? immunity from accusation?) Intentionally? Willingly? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 791 Registered: 5-2009 |
Okay. Looking back, "them" is only yesishly referring to the victims, whom we have now established are the accused witches. But "the villains" unambiguously refers to witch hunters? Yes. Is "them" some subset of accused witches? No. Accused witches, plus others? No. A subset of accused witches, plus others. "Worked for" in what way: did they perform some service of value to the villains? Yes. In exchange for payment? Yes. (monetary? Normally this. some valuable good? an equivalent service? immunity from accusation?) Intentionally? They knew what they did. Willingly? Possibly. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 1377 Registered: 4-2010 |
Did they confess? Fake symptoms? To show that there "really was" a witch epidemic? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 793 Registered: 5-2009 |
Did they confess? Fake symptoms? To show that there "really was" a witch epidemic? No to all, possible FA. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 1412 Registered: 4-2010 |
Does the "victims" include the families of the accused witchers? Of the accusers? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 795 Registered: 5-2009 |
Does the "victims" include the families of the accused witchers? Of the accusers? No or irrelevant. To prevent FAs: "They" are not a group which is defined by their involvment in witch hunts. "They" existed before, and "they" still exist today. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 1436 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is "they" a particular religious group? Race? Residents of a country? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 797 Registered: 5-2009 |
Is "they" a particular religious group? Race? Residents of a country? No to all. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 1449 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is the "victims" those of a particular age? Gender? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 799 Registered: 5-2009 |
Is the "victims" those of a particular age? Gender? If you want to differentiate between "they" and "victims", please be very, very specific (or maybe rather lateral). "They" consist of female adults in the time of the witch hunts and of adults, most of them female, today. | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3097 Registered: 5-2003 |
Are the innocent victims accused witches? Who came to believe, via torture-induced constructed memories, that they really were witches? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 803 Registered: 5-2009 |
Are the innocent victims accused witches? Yes, but be cautious because of the nature of the scrund. Who came to believe, via torture-induced constructed memories, that they really were witches? No. | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3124 Registered: 5-2003 |
Are the villains accusers? Victims who turned in their friends and families to the witch-hunters? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 805 Registered: 5-2009 |
Are the villains accusers? Yes. Victims who turned in their friends and families to the witch-hunters? No or irrelevant. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 1690 Registered: 4-2010 |
Was a deal made between the accusers and accused? Did money pass hands? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 809 Registered: 5-2009 |
Was a deal made between the accusers and accused? No. Did money pass hands? Yes, but this might be misleading. Remember the group isn't defined by their role in the witch-hunts. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 1801 Registered: 4-2010 |
Did the victims know that they would be accused? Is their sentencing relevant? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 817 Registered: 5-2009 |
Did the victims know that they would be accused? Some of those accused as witches may have known before they were in danger, some of them not. No difference here between accused witches in general and those belonging to the relevant group. Is their sentencing relevant? Noish. Hint: The scrund is about the extent to which a certain group of people was persecuted. | ||
| Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
New member Username: Ohlala8 Post Number: 750 Registered: 6-2009 |
Are "they" defined by gender? religion? ethnicity? race? background? family? marital status? social class? nationality? profession? avocation(s)? membership in a club? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 821 Registered: 5-2009 |
Are "they" defined by gender? Yesish. religion? ethnicity? race? background? family? marital status? social class? nationality? profession? Yes. avocation(s)? membership in a club? No to the others. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 1900 Registered: 4-2010 |
Are the persons persecuted former persecutors? (Tongue twister alert) Do they work for the government? Have a high-paying job? Or do they actually work for the persecutors? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 822 Registered: 5-2009 |
Are the persons persecuted former persecutors? Normally not. (Tongue twister alert) Do they work for the government? For some of them you could say so. Have a high-paying job? No. Or do they actually work for the persecutors? Who? Those in fact persecuted? No. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 2037 Registered: 4-2010 |
So there are those persecuted, and the persecutors, right? Is there a third group of people involved? Is that the "they"? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 824 Registered: 5-2009 |
So there are those persecuted, and the persecutors, right? Yes. Is there a third group of people involved? Yes, the group the scrund is about. Is that the "they"? Yes. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 2091 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is the third group defined by age? Gender? Physical build? Religion? Profession? Geographical location? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 826 Registered: 5-2009 |
Is the third group defined by age? They're adults. Gender? Thisish Physical build? Religion? Profession? This. Geographical location? No to rest. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 2092 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is the third group judges? Lawyers? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 828 Registered: 5-2009 |
Is the third group judges? Lawyers? No to both. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 2096 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is the third group involved in the trials themselves? In the execution? Is "if you drown, you're innocent, but if you swim, you're a witch" relevant? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 829 Registered: 5-2009 |
Is the third group involved in the trials themselves? Some of them yesishly or yopeishly. In the execution? No. Is "if you drown, you're innocent, but if you swim, you're a witch" relevant? No. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 2098 Registered: 4-2010 |
Was the third group related to the accused witches? The persecutors? Were they acquainted with the accused witches? The persecutors? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 832 Registered: 5-2009 |
Was the third group related to the accused witches? The persecutors? Were they acquainted with the accused witches? The persecutors? No general answers to these questions are possible. Some of them were related to and/or acquainted with some of the victims and/or some of the persecutors. In many cases, witch-hunts took place in fairly small towns where most people would know each other. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 2109 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is the third group the town elders? The town government of some sort? Are they of a certain social class? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 833 Registered: 5-2009 |
Is the third group the town elders? No. The town government of some sort? No. Note that "they" were all female. Are they of a certain social class? Insofar as their profession determines their social class. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 2111 Registered: 4-2010 |
Were "they" teachers? Librarians? Did they work with books? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 835 Registered: 5-2009 |
Were "they" teachers? Librarians? Did they work with books? No to all. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 2116 Registered: 4-2010 |
Did "their" husbands have notable roles in the town? Were they of high class? Middle? Low? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 836 Registered: 5-2009 |
Did "their" husbands have notable roles in the town? Normally not. Were they of high class? Middle? This. Low? | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 2559 Registered: 9-2009 |
Were "they" involved in medicine? Were they nurses? Were they in a profession that was hit particularly hard by the witch hunts? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 841 Registered: 5-2009 |
Were "they" involved in medicine? Yes. Were they nurses? But no. Were they in a profession that was hit particularly hard by the witch hunts? Yope. This is what the scrund is about. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 2216 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is a specific kind of medicine relevant? If so, is it herbs? Drugs? Is it legal today? Widely used? Are they doctors? Midwifes? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 842 Registered: 5-2009 |
Is a specific kind of medicine relevant? Yes, see below. If so, is it herbs? Drugs? Is it legal today? Widely used? Are they doctors? Midwifes? This. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 2287 Registered: 4-2010 |
Were the midwifes accused of being witches? Did they accuse others? Did they lose business because of the witch hunts? Gain business? Was it not impacted at all? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 844 Registered: 5-2009 |
Were the midwifes accused of being witches? Some of them, but... Did they accuse others? Some of them, which isn't really relevant but somewhat in contradiction to the scrund. Did they lose business because of the witch hunts? No. Gain business? Yes, by working for the villains. Was it not impacted at all? So it was impacted. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 2321 Registered: 4-2010 |
Did they claim to have witnessed the signs of being a witch in the accused witches at their births? (Does that make sense?) Did they deliver babies for the wives of the villains? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 848 Registered: 5-2009 |
Did they claim to have witnessed the signs of being a witch in the accused witches at their births? No. but some (Does that make sense?) Well, "at their births" is a variant I haven't read of, but mdwifes looking for signs of being a witch existed. I have someting else in mind, however. Did they deliver babies for the wives of the villains? No. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 2662 Registered: 4-2010 |
Did they have very liberal signs of witch-ness? So that pretty much anything could be translated as "this person is a witch"? | ||
| Rbruma (Rbruma)
New member Username: Rbruma Post Number: 30 Registered: 9-2009 |
To summarize (confirm if correct): The "villains" were the persecuters. "Them" were the midwives as a class. The victims were a subset of that class and possibly included others that were not midwifes. Now, what's left to explore? The historical context? Who were the other victims? Why some midwives were considered witches while others were not? How did they benefit the villains? Some other thing? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 849 Registered: 5-2009 |
Did they have very liberal signs of witch-ness? Irrelevant. As I said I have something else in mind than midwifes looking for witch signs. So that pretty much anything could be translated as "this person is a witch"? see above. | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 850 Registered: 5-2009 |
To summarize (confirm if correct): The "villains" were the persecuters. Yes "Them" were the midwives as a class. Yes. The victims were a subset of that class and possibly included others that were not midwifes. No, the victims were those persecuted as witches in general. Some (a few) of them were midwifes, too. Now, what's left to explore? The historical context? Who were the other victims? Why some midwives were considered witches while others were not? How did they benefit the villains? This. What was the most common kind of work midwifes did for the persecutors of witches? Some other thing? | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 3011 Registered: 9-2009 |
Virginity relevant? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3498 Registered: 5-2003 |
Checking to see if accused witches had been violated by demons? | ||
| Rbruma (Rbruma)
New member Username: Rbruma Post Number: 129 Registered: 9-2009 |
Did they (the midwives) do something related to their profession or something totally different? | ||
| Orangeee (Orangeee)
New member Username: Orangeee Post Number: 8 Registered: 10-2010 |
Were the midwives prosecuted the ones whose predictions of who would turn out to be a witch were allegedly true? Were they prosecuted because they were "seers"? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 856 Registered: 5-2009 |
Sorry for having neglected my puzzles for such a long time... Virginity relevant? Possibly, but only indirectly. Checking to see if accused witches had been violated by demons? No. Did they (the midwives) do something related to their profession This. or something totally different? Were the midwives prosecuted the ones whose predictions of who would turn out to be a witch were allegedly true? No. Were they prosecuted because they were "seers"? No. This idea might be part of the scrund (that midwives were systematically persecuted). | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 8600 Registered: 4-2010 |
Nice to see you back, Markobr! Were the midwives ordered to kill certain babies? (Thinking of Exodus 1 here...is it anything like that?) | ||
| Thepasch (Thepasch)
New member Username: Thepasch Post Number: 35 Registered: 8-2010 |
Could you please recap? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 860 Registered: 5-2009 |
Were the midwives ordered to kill certain babies? No.(Thinking of Exodus 1 here...is it anything like that? No.) Recap (and maybe a bit of a hint): It is often believed that midwifes were systematically persecuted during the European witch hunts in the 16th and 17th century. This is a scrund: Cases which involved midwifes were sometimes spectacular but not remarkably frequent. In fact, the sources mention midwifes more often in another role - namely helping the persecutors of witches by doing something which was related to their profession. It is not about midwifes looking for "witch signs", killing or abducting babies. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 8678 Registered: 4-2010 |
Pain of birth relevant? Speed of birth? Inducing labor? C-section? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 862 Registered: 5-2009 |
Pain of birth relevant? Speed of birth? Inducing labor? C-section? No to all. | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 922 Registered: 5-2009 |
Hint: Think more about the process - in more than one sense. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 8853 Registered: 4-2010 |
The process...of giving birth? Of delivering a baby? Of hunting witches? Of testing to see if someone was a witch? Can't believe this puzzle has lasted this long without someone quoting Monty Python - "And what do you burn, apart from witches?" / "MORE WITCHES!!" | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 925 Registered: 5-2009 |
The process...of giving birth? Of delivering a baby? There is a longer process involved... Of hunting witches? There is a shorter process involved... (well, *the* process) Of testing to see if someone was a witch? Not really. The fact that torture was used in the process of testing is relevant, however. Can't believe this puzzle has lasted this long without someone quoting Monty Python - "And what do you burn, apart from witches?" / "MORE WITCHES!!" YOPEISH!!! | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 8858 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is Monty Python in fact relevant? Or some other parody of witch-burning? | ||
| Mimino (Mimino)
New member Username: Mimino Post Number: 67 Registered: 6-2005 |
Was the midwife's part in the process to detect whether a woman accused of being a witch was pregnant? I could imagine that a pregnant woman was not arrested, or at least not tortured. So, by saying "pregnant" the midwife could postpone the process and give the woman some chance to get free? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 927 Registered: 5-2009 |
Is Monty Python in fact relevant? Or some other parody of witch-burning? No to both. My answer was in italics for good reason. Was the midwife's part in the process to detect whether a woman accused of being a witch was pregnant? YES. I could imagine that a pregnant woman was not arrested, or at least not tortured. Yes, at least quite often. So, by saying "pregnant" the midwife could postpone the process and give the woman some chance to get free? Or the other way round. By proving a claim to be pregnant was false, she would ensure the process could continue quickly. Time for a ==SPOILER== While there are quite few cases of midwifes being persecuted as witches are documented, midwifes examining accused women who claimed to be pregnant are frequently mentioned. The claim was quite common because pregnant women would usually treated better than other prisoners which could mean mitigation or postponment of torture, better conditions of imprisonment or even discharge from prison. Whether there were midwifes who backed wrong claims of pregnancy, I don't know. If they were successful, the files won't show. |
