| Author | Message | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 4067 Registered: 5-2003 |
Their altimeters were inaccurate, but they found a better method of determining their height. What was it? | ||
| Whirligig (Whirligig)
New member Username: Whirligig Post Number: 413 Registered: 8-2010 |
Drugs relevant? :P Height of clouds? Passengers being scared? Pressure? Distance from a tower? Do they measure: Distance? Time? Length? Area? Volume? Mass? Density? Weight? Force? Energy? Is it an estimation? Is this on an airplane? Are they on the ground? Do they use the altimeter readings in their calculation? | ||
| Biograd (Biograd)
New member Username: Biograd Post Number: 1161 Registered: 6-2008 |
Did they use the curvature of the earth somehow? (If you know the distance along the ground to a point on the horizon, you can calculate your height this way) | ||
| Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
New member Username: Kayleetonkslupin Post Number: 1021 Registered: 9-2010 |
Skydiving relevant? (I know you're not Galfisk, but I thought I'd ask anyway) "They" = H/A/M? H/A/F? Mixed? Relevant? True story? FYOI? FSEI? Does this take place on (or perhaps above) Earth? In {LTPF list of centuries}? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 4068 Registered: 5-2003 |
Drugs relevant? :P No. Height of clouds? Passengers being scared? Pressure? Distance from a tower? None of these. Do they measure: Distance? This. Time? Length? Area? Volume? Mass? Density? Weight? Force? Energy? None of the others. Is it an estimation? No. Is this on an airplane? Yes. Are they on the ground? No. Do they use the altimeter readings in their calculation? No. Did they use the curvature of the earth somehow? No. (If you know the distance along the ground to a point on the horizon, you can calculate your height this way) Skydiving relevant? No. (I know you're not Galfisk, but I thought I'd ask anyway) "They" = H/A/M? This. H/A/F? Mixed? Relevant? Yes. True story? This. FYOI? FSEI? Does this take place on (or perhaps above) Earth? Yes. In {LTPF list of centuries}? 20th. | ||
| Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
New member Username: Kayleetonkslupin Post Number: 1022 Registered: 9-2010 |
{LTPF list of continents}, and {LTPF list of decades}? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 4069 Registered: 5-2003 |
{LTPF list of continents}, Europe and {LTPF list of decades}? 1940s. | ||
| Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
New member Username: Kayleetonkslupin Post Number: 1024 Registered: 9-2010 |
WWII? Allies or Axis powers relevant? Air Force pilots? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 4070 Registered: 5-2003 |
WWII? Yes. Allies This. or Axis powers relevant? Air Force pilots? Yes. | ||
| Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
New member Username: Kayleetonkslupin Post Number: 1025 Registered: 9-2010 |
American pilots? Or another Allied power? | ||
| Rbruma (Rbruma)
New member Username: Rbruma Post Number: 833 Registered: 9-2009 |
Is it another plane relevant? More than one? If so, allied plane? Enemies'? The pilots: American? British? Russian? Relevant the type of plane? Bomber? Fighter? Were they on a mission above enemy territory? Or maybe in a training at home? Radar relevant? Relevant why the altimeters were inaccurate in the first place? If on a mission, were they en route to their fighting destination or trying to return home? Were they hit? Did the plane crash? Does one need specialized knowledge of plane operation to solve this puzzle? Did they use another instrument on board? Is the weather relevant? Just to be sure: we are (and they were at the moment) trying to establish the altitude of the plane, correct? Not the altitude of their crash site, for example? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 7504 Registered: 4-2010 |
Did they drop something out of the plane and time how long it took to hit the ground? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 4071 Registered: 5-2003 |
American pilots? Or another Allied power? This. Is another plane relevant? More than one? Mildly - eighteen in all were on this mission together. If so, allied plane? This. Enemies'? The pilots: American? British? This. Russian? Relevant the type of plane? Yes. Bomber? This. Fighter? Were they on a mission above enemy territory? Yes. Or maybe in a training at home? Radar relevant? No. Relevant why the altimeters were inaccurate in the first place? No. If on a mission, were they en route to their fighting destination or trying to return home? Neither. Were they hit? Several were. Did the plane crash? Some did. Does one need specialized knowledge of plane operation to solve this puzzle? No. Did they use another instrument on board? Yes, for SVV of instrument. Is the weather relevant? No. Just to be sure: we are (and they were at the moment) trying to establish the altitude of the plane, correct? Yes. Not the altitude of their crash site, for example? No. Did they drop something out of the plane and time how long it took to hit the ground? No. | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 2262 Registered: 3-2006 |
So is this the Battle of Britain? Did the pilots drop anything out of their planes? Were they flying over water? Over land? Over some relevant landmark? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 4073 Registered: 5-2003 |
So is this the Battle of Britain? No. Did the pilots drop anything out of their planes? Yes. Were they flying over water? This. Over land? Over some relevant landmark? And this. | ||
| Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
New member Username: Kayleetonkslupin Post Number: 1054 Registered: 9-2010 |
Gibraltar? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 4074 Registered: 5-2003 |
Gibraltar? No. | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 2264 Registered: 3-2006 |
The Ruhr campaign? Barnes Wallis? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 4075 Registered: 5-2003 |
The Ruhr campaign? Yes. Barnes Wallis? Yep. | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 2266 Registered: 3-2006 |
Ah, I hoped it would be. So we're talking about bouncing bombs and their trajectories? So is this puzzle set in the Welsh valleys? I believe there was a dam in Wales where they used to practise to get their angles right? Did they work out their altitudes by counting the time between bounces, or the time taken to get from plane to target? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 4076 Registered: 5-2003 |
Ah, I hoped it would be. So we're talking about bouncing bombs and their trajectories? Yes. So is this puzzle set in the Welsh valleys? No. I believe there was a dam in Wales where they used to practise to get their angles right? Irr. Did they work out their altitudes by counting the time between bounces, or the time taken to get from plane to target? Neither. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 7876 Registered: 4-2010 |
Did they count the time between drop and bounce? Drop and hit? Did they count any time, period? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 4087 Registered: 5-2003 |
Did they count the time between drop and bounce? Drop and hit? Did they count any time, period? No. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 8424 Registered: 4-2010 |
Did they measure a distance? The number of bounces? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 4122 Registered: 5-2003 |
Did they measure a distance? Yes. The number of bounces? No. | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 4123 Registered: 5-2003 |
OOPS. Did they measure a distance? Not directly. The number of bounces? No. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 8442 Registered: 4-2010 |
Did they drop the bombs from the plane? Onto the sea? Or something else at sea level? Could you please recap? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 4126 Registered: 5-2003 |
Did they drop the bombs from the plane? Yes. Onto the sea? No. Or something else at sea level? No. Could you please recap? During the "bouncing bomb" raid in 1943, the British aircraft of 617 "Dambusters" Squadron had inaccurate altimeters. However, their crews used something else to successfully determine their height. They did not measure or count anything to do this. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 8457 Registered: 4-2010 |
Did they use the other planes to help determine their height/ | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 4130 Registered: 5-2003 |
Did they use the other planes to help determine their height? No. | ||
| Rbruma (Rbruma)
New member Username: Rbruma Post Number: 1019 Registered: 9-2009 |
Did they compared their altitude to the height of a ground object? If so, natural? Man-made? Whose height was already known? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 4138 Registered: 5-2003 |
Did they compared their altitude to the height of a ground object? No. If so, natural? Man-made? Whose height was already known? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 8530 Registered: 4-2010 |
Did they use the bombs to help determine height? Size of the explosion? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 4143 Registered: 5-2003 |
Did they use the bombs to help determine height? Size of the explosion? No to both. I suspect an FA. | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 4152 Registered: 5-2003 |
Hint: Why did the pilots need to know their height in the first place? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 8914 Registered: 4-2010 |
Did they need to know their height to keep from crashing into something? To stay above the clouds? To stay out of sight? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 4167 Registered: 5-2003 |
Did they need to know their height to keep from crashing into something? To stay above the clouds? To stay out of sight? None of these. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 8925 Registered: 4-2010 |
Did only one person need to know the height? Was anyone planning to jump out of the plane? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 4171 Registered: 5-2003 |
Did only one person need to know the height? One person in each plane. Was anyone planning to jump out of the plane? No. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 8950 Registered: 4-2010 |
Wait...there's more than one plane involved? Did each plane determine its own individual height? Or did they determine their height...collectively, so to say? | ||
| Woubit (Woubit)
Moderator Username: Woubit Post Number: 1202 Registered: 5-2007 |
Once there was a silly old ram... | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 4174 Registered: 5-2003 |
Wait...there's more than one plane involved? There were 18 planes, attacking three dams. Did each plane determine its own individual height? Yes. Or did they determine their height...collectively, so to say? No. Each plane attacked on its own. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 8972 Registered: 4-2010 |
Did they determine their height by something related to the dams bursting? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 4177 Registered: 5-2003 |
Did they determine their height by something related to the dams bursting? No. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 8985 Registered: 4-2010 |
Did they determine their height by observing something? By performing mathematical calculations? Could you please recap? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 4178 Registered: 5-2003 |
Did they determine their height by observing something? Yes. By performing mathematical calculations? No. Could you please recap? During the special "Dambusters" raid to destroy German dams with bouncing bombs, the bombers of 617 Squadron had inaccurate altimeters. Why was this relevant and how did they solve the problem? You seem to have an FA about what the altimeters were needed for in the first place. Hint: It wasn't that the altimeters were actually inaccurate, but that they weren't accurate enough. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 8990 Registered: 4-2010 |
Did they need the altimeters to help with the actual dropping of the bombs? Were the altimeters close to the actual height? Way off? Somewhere in between? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 4184 Registered: 5-2003 |
Did they need the altimeters to help with the actual dropping of the bombs? Yes. Were the altimeters close to the actual height? Yes. Way off? Somewhere in between? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 9001 Registered: 4-2010 |
Did they solve the problem by observing the dams themselves? Relevant how they determined that the altimeters were off? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 4188 Registered: 5-2003 |
Did they solve the problem by observing the dams themselves? Relevant how they determined that the altimeters were off? No to both. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 9056 Registered: 4-2010 |
Did they observe the altimeters? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 4191 Registered: 5-2003 |
Did they observe the altimeters? No. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 9059 Registered: 4-2010 |
Did they observe the other planes? The weather? The bombs? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 4193 Registered: 5-2003 |
Did they observe the other planes? The weather? The bombs? No to all. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 9072 Registered: 4-2010 |
Did they observe something on the ground? In the air? In the water? The water itself? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 4197 Registered: 5-2003 |
Did they observe something on the ground? In the air? In the water? Not in it...The water itself? Yesish. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 9091 Registered: 4-2010 |
Did they observe something on the water? The bouncing bombs? Waves? Ripples? Ripples/waves made by the planes? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 4198 Registered: 5-2003 |
Did they observe something on the water? Yes. The bouncing bombs? Waves? Ripples? Ripples/waves made by the planes? None of these. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 9102 Registered: 4-2010 |
Did they observe ships? Animals? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 4203 Registered: 5-2003 |
Did they observe ships? Animals? Neither. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 9131 Registered: 4-2010 |
Apples? Very small rocks? Bread? Ducks? OK, seriously, my mind is going. Seaplanes? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 4210 Registered: 5-2003 |
Apples? Very small rocks? Bread? Ducks? LOL. None of these. OK, seriously, my mind is going. Where's it going? Coventry? Seaplanes? No. Hint: They didn't observe physical objects. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 9141 Registered: 4-2010 |
Did they observe the wind? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 4211 Registered: 5-2003 |
Did they observe the wind? No. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 9197 Registered: 4-2010 |
Did they observe...wow, I'm flat out of ideas. Did they observe something that was stationary? In motion? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 4217 Registered: 5-2003 |
Did they observe something that was stationary? In motion? This. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 9199 Registered: 4-2010 |
So a non-physical object that was in motion...did they observe tides? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 4220 Registered: 5-2003 |
So a non-physical object that was in motion...did they observe tides? No. | ||
| Woubit (Woubit)
Moderator Username: Woubit Post Number: 1228 Registered: 5-2007 |
In an effort to reassure Jenburdoo that people other than Balin look at her puzzles, I venture to suggest that what they observed were two beams of light - one from the nose and one from the fuselage of their aircraft. Since they (the Dam Busters) had to drop bombs from a height of almost exactly eighteen metres above the water, it was obvious that the conventional barometric altimeters of the 1940s would be completely useless. So each plane was fitted with two spotlights set at angles such that when the plane was at the desired height, the two beams of light would exactly converge. Just as it was crucial to release the bombs from the right altitude, so it was crucial to release them at the correct distance from the target. To this end, a "bomb sight" was devised that resembled a tuning fork - it had two prongs that subtended the same angle as the towers at the end of the Möhne and the Eder Dams (rather thoughtful of the Germans to build those towers, really). When the prongs were aligned with the towers, and the beams of the lights converged on the water, the bombs would be released. While the spotlights worked splendidly, the tuning fork did not - the Avro Lancaster did not provide the smoothest of flights at any altitude (let alone sixty feet above water in a crosswind), and the vibrations from the engines rendered the bomb sight pretty much useless. So the bombers tied a bit of elastic around a couple of struts, pulled it back after the fashion of a catapult, and released the bombs when the eye of the catapult met the centre of the dam. The battle of Waterloo, it is said, was won on the playing fields of Eton. The former public schoolboys who made up a considerable part of No. 5 Group, Royal Air Force must have taken considerable satisfaction in dealing a blow to German industrial might by means of skimming stones, torches and catapults. |
