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Balin (Balin)
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Post Number: 11674
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Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2011 - 2:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I know many people with a scrund about a certain game. While verifying that this was, in fact, a scrund (it is), I found that I too had a scrund about that game.

What is the original scrund, and what is my scrund?
Potato (Potato)
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Post Number: 331
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Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2011 - 2:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The game: A board game? Card game? Any other game that you'd play directly with others (that is, not online)? A computer game? A console game? An online game? An RPG? A game that's also a sport? One that involves relatively much physical activity?
Larru (Larru)
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Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2011 - 7:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the original scrund involving words (and hearing them incorrectly)? What about your scrund?
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2011 - 8:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the original scrund about a rule of the game? The origin of the game? The meaning of something in the game? A procedure? The history of the game? A particular person who is affiliated with the game?

Same questions for your scrund?
Balin (Balin)
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Post Number: 11677
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Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2011 - 8:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The game: A board game? Yes Card game? No Any other game that you'd play directly with others (that is, not online)? Yes, but it can also be played on a computer A computer game? A console game? An online game? An RPG? No to these A game that's also a sport? I'm sure some would consider this a sport; I'm not sure if I would though One that involves relatively much physical activity? No

Is the original scrund involving words (and hearing them incorrectly)? No What about your scrund? No

Is the original scrund about a rule of the game? This, No to rest The origin of the game? The meaning of something in the game? A procedure? The history of the game? A particular person who is affiliated with the game?

Same questions for your scrund? Same answer
Doriana (Doriana)
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Post Number: 540
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Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2011 - 9:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it a game for two players? Chess? Checkers? Go?
For more than two players? Trivial Pursuit? Monopoly? Life? One where you roll dice?
Balin (Balin)
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Post Number: 11683
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Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2011 - 9:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it a game for two players? Chess? This Checkers? Go?
For more than two players? Trivial Pursuit? Monopoly? Life? One where you roll dice?
Doriana (Doriana)
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Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2011 - 9:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Chess rules, huh.

Questions for both scrunds:
Is it a rule that has to do with the pieces? The way they can move? Who can capture whom?

Does it apply to the opening? middlegame? endgame?
Eli (Eli)
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Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2011 - 9:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would either of the scrunds have something to do with the names of the chess pieces?
Balin (Balin)
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Post Number: 11685
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Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2011 - 9:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Chess rules, huh.

Questions for both scrunds:
Is it a rule that has to do with the pieces? The way they can move? Who can capture whom? No to all for both

Does it apply to the opening? middlegame? endgame? This for both

Would either of the scrunds have something to do with the names of the chess pieces? No
Doriana (Doriana)
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Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2011 - 10:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Checkmate relevant?
What it is? How you achieve it?

Any deeper chess knowledge necessary? (;
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2011 - 10:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Checkmate relevant? No
What it is? No How you achieve it? No

Any deeper chess knowledge necessary? (; Only this: How can a game end other than checkmate?
Eli (Eli)
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Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2011 - 10:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Draw/remis?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2011 - 10:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Draw/remis? Yes! Both scrunds have to do with draws.
Eli (Eli)
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Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2011 - 10:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are either of the scrunds related to what a draw is called? How it is determined it's a draw?
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2011 - 10:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is zugzwang relevant? Promotions? Time control? Resigning? Draw? (If so: by the threefold repetition of a position? 50 moves rule? agreement? impossibility of a checkmate due to insufficient material?}
Martinfg (Martinfg)
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Posted on Friday, February 04, 2011 - 9:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Stalemate?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Friday, February 04, 2011 - 1:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are either of the scrunds related to what a draw is called? How it is determined it's a draw? They're both related-ish to ways to draw.

Is zugzwang relevant? Promotions? Time control? Resigning? Draw? Only this (If so: by the threefold repetition of a position? 50 moves rule? agreement? impossibility of a checkmate due to insufficient material? None of these, with an -ish to threefold repetition.

Stalemate? No
Docd (Docd)
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Posted on Friday, February 04, 2011 - 1:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Perpetual check?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Friday, February 04, 2011 - 1:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Perpetual check? For me, BIG YES.
Docd (Docd)
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Posted on Friday, February 04, 2011 - 1:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I used to believe (until recently) that perpetual check was part of the official rules of chess. Did you have the same scrund?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Friday, February 04, 2011 - 6:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I used to believe (until recently) that perpetual check was part of the official rules of chess. Did you have the same scrund? Until yesterday, Yes!

One down, one to go...
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Posted on Saturday, February 05, 2011 - 4:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hmmm, perpetual check is NOT part of the official rules? How many of us lived with this certainty?? :-)

For the other scrund: is it related to openings? middle game? end game? Is it the fact that you could open the game with two moves?
Docd (Docd)
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Posted on Saturday, February 05, 2011 - 11:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the other scrund about perpetual check too?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Sunday, February 06, 2011 - 12:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hmmm, perpetual check is NOT part of the official rules? How many of us lived with this certainty?? :-) According to Wikipedia, it was part of the rules until the 60s, yet the books I learned chess from included perpetual check, and they were written in the 90s.

For the other scrund: is it related to openings? middle game? end game? This Is it the fact that you could open the game with two moves? No

Is the other scrund about perpetual check too? No - it's another way to draw which really isn't.
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Posted on Sunday, February 06, 2011 - 9:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

50 move rule relevant?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Sunday, February 06, 2011 - 5:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

50 move rule relevant? No
Gourami (Gourami)
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Posted on Sunday, February 06, 2011 - 8:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just out of curiosity, when you say you thought perpetual check was part of the official rules, do you mean you thought it created an automatic draw? Or that the checker automatically loses? (I know that's a variant rule, one that I rather like)

Could this other scrund be found in (mistaken) rulebooks? Is it something that people are taught incorrectly? Or is it the type of thing one might work out on one's own, but be wrong about?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, February 07, 2011 - 1:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just out of curiosity, when you say you thought perpetual check was part of the official rules, do you mean you thought it created an automatic draw? Or that the checker automatically loses? (I know that's a variant rule, one that I rather like) I thought it created a draw

Could this other scrund be found in (mistaken) rulebooks? I highly doubt it Is it something that people are taught incorrectly? Or is it the type of thing one might work out on one's own, but be wrong about? Hmmm...I've heard it passed by word of mouth among junior high and high school students, so more likely the former than the latter.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, February 07, 2011 - 5:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

HINT: Figure out which chess pieces are relevant.
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Monday, February 07, 2011 - 6:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Pawn?
Rook/Castle?
Knight?
Bishop?
King?
Queen?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, February 07, 2011 - 8:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Pawn?
Rook/Castle?
Knight?
Bishop?
King? This and this alone
Queen?
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Monday, February 07, 2011 - 10:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So since the rook/castle isn't relevant, it's not castling...

Is the fact that the king can only move one space in any direction on any given turn (other than the aforementioned castling) at all relevant?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, February 07, 2011 - 11:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So since the rook/castle isn't relevant, it's not castling... Correct, that's not the answer

Is the fact that the king can only move one space in any direction on any given turn (other than the aforementioned castling) at all relevant? Yope. Remember that this is an endgame scenario.
Gourami (Gourami)
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Posted on Monday, February 07, 2011 - 11:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the scrund that a king can't checkmate another king? Or that he can?

Master strategist that I am, I'd believe either one...
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, February 07, 2011 - 11:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the scrund that a king can't checkmate another king? Or that he can? Neither

Master strategist that I am, I'd believe either one...
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2011 - 12:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

does it have to do with your king moving one space? not moving? being your last piece remaining on the board? moving in a particular direction? avoiding moving in a particular direction?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2011 - 1:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

does it have to do with your king moving one space? not moving? being your last piece remaining on the board? This, No to rest moving in a particular direction? avoiding moving in a particular direction?
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2011 - 12:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the scrund that:
If you only have a king left, you automatically lose? It's automatically a draw? You automatically can't win?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2011 - 1:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the scrund that:
If you only have a king left, you automatically lose? It's automatically a draw? You automatically can't win? None of these

I should clarify: the king moving in a particular direction is not relevant, nor are its legal moves (ish), but its moving in general is.
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2011 - 2:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did you think you can turn a pawn into a second king?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2011 - 3:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did you think you can turn a pawn into a second king? No - the scrund is only in effect when the king is the only piece on the board. (Of a particular color, I mean.)
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2011 - 5:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

White?
Black?
Kalira (Kalira)
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Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2011 - 5:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did you think that once you only had your king left, that you automatically lost? couldn't move?

So am I correct in thinking this has nothing to do with castling? trading pieces? the other 15 pieces your "side" begins the game with?

Are the pieces you've captured relevant? The pieces your opponent has captured? The opponent's pieces still on the board? Specific pieces (other than your king) relevant?
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2011 - 6:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kings often don't move very far over the course of the game; it's pretty rare for them to reach the opposite end of the board from where they've started, for example. Is this at all related to the scrund? Maybe that there's some secondary goal to reach? A safe zone?

Does it matter how many pieces the other player has left?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2011 - 8:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

White? Black? Could be either

Did you think that once you only had your king left, that you automatically lost? No couldn't move? No

So am I correct in thinking this has nothing to do with castling? trading pieces? the other 15 pieces your "side" begins the game with? Correct, those are all irrel

Are the pieces you've captured relevant? The pieces your opponent has captured? The opponent's pieces still on the board? Specific pieces (other than your king) relevant? No to all

Kings often don't move very far over the course of the game; it's pretty rare for them to reach the opposite end of the board from where they've started, for example. Is this at all related to the scrund? No Maybe that there's some secondary goal to reach? No A safe zone? No

Does it matter how many pieces the other player has left? No

RECAP:

The scrund is that there is a certain way to draw in chess (in reality, this is not a draw). The scrund only applies when one side has only a king on the board.
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2011 - 9:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it relevant where the King is on the board when the 'draw' occurs? If so? Relevant file? Rank? On the borders? In a corner? In the middle?

Will the scrund apply if the other color has only the king? The king and a pawn? A blocked pawn? The king and two rooks? The king and two queens?

Relevant if the king can avoid checkmate a number of moves?
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2011 - 9:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

There is sometimes the situation when your King is not currently in check, but that any move he makes would put him in check. Normally that's ok, because you can just move another piece, but if you've only got your King, then you're stuck. I'm pretty sure that's still a checkmate, even though the King isn't actually in check, right? Did someone think that situation created a draw, instead?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2011 - 2:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

There is sometimes the situation when your King is not currently in check, but that any move he makes would put him in check. Normally that's ok, because you can just move another piece, but if you've only got your King, then you're stuck. I'm pretty sure that's still a checkmate, even though the King isn't actually in check, right? No, that's called stalemate, and is a draw Did someone think that situation created a draw, instead? Well, it does...

Is it relevant where the King is on the board when the 'draw' occurs? No If so? Relevant file? Rank? On the borders? In a corner? In the middle?

Will the scrund apply if the other color has only the king? No, because this would be a draw by inadequate material The king and a pawn? Yes A blocked pawn? If only the blocked pawn then No (draw by inad. material), if other pieces as well then Yes The king and two rooks? Yes The king and two queens? Yes

Relevant if the king can avoid checkmate a number of moves? Yep, and I'll call it here.

**********SPOILER**********

Throughout childhood and my teens, I encountered a lot of students who believed that if the king is the only piece on the board for one side, and the king makes 21 moves without being mated, then it's a draw. However, this is nowhere in the rulebook, and I usually pointed this out (or won in less than 21 anyway).

When I went to double-check this, I learned that perpetual check is not in the rulebook either (although it used to be). This surprised me, as I had learned that perpetual check was one of the ways to draw.

Nice work everyone (and I mean EVERYONE - a lot of you worked on this), especially Rbruma, who gets the checkmate.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2011 - 2:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh, and bonus points to Docd as well, who captured the queen...I mean, figured out my scrund.

And I used "double-check" in the $poyler - teh pun was not intended.
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2011 - 12:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Whoops, you're right, it's stalemate. Unfortunately it has been months (or maybe even years?) since I played a game of chess, and over a decade since I've played with anyone who knows more than the basic rules. I guess I'm getting rusty.
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2011 - 6:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Nice one. I never heard the "21 moves rule", but I still consider "perpetual check" part of the rules, since I cannot see any situation in which a perpetual check will not eventually fall back on the 50 move. But I'm not Capablanca :-)
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Thursday, February 10, 2011 - 2:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I know my middle school chess club used the "21 moves rule". It was basically to prevent matches from dragging on indefinitely. But it's not a real rule, although few of us knew it at the time. However, perpetual check will eventually lead to draw by threefold repetition (same position three times) or by the 50-move rule (no piece captured or pawn moved in 50 moves for each white and black). and in most perpetual checks it will eventually be a draw by mutual agreement.

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