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Nimue (Nimue)
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Post Number: 6825
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Posted on Sunday, June 26, 2011 - 9:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This puzzle introduces the concept of a paired scrund. Something that people think is true of Quakers & false of anti-Semites is actually true of anti-Semites & false of Quakers. What is it?
Shez (Shez)
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Posted on Sunday, June 26, 2011 - 11:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

is it something about their beliefs? lifestyle? religious practices? dietary laws?
Hominid (Hominid)
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Posted on Monday, June 27, 2011 - 11:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would Quakers have this scrund? Anti-Semites? Jews? Anti-anti-Semites (what's the proper term?)? Americans?

Is the thing considered positive? negative? neutral?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2011 - 3:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Religious services relevant?
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2011 - 9:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the idea of an anti-Semite Quaker far-fetched enough that we can safely ignore it?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2011 - 10:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Shez (Shez)
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Posted on Sunday, June 26, 2011 - 11:05 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
is it something about their beliefs? lifestyle? religious practices? dietary laws? no to all!
Hominid (Hominid)
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Posted on Monday, June 27, 2011 - 11:29 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Would Quakers have this scrund? possibly but not necessarily Anti-Semites? ditto Jews? dittoAnti-anti-Semites (what's the proper term?)? ditto Americans? ditto. By the way, I bet that most people on this forum have it!

Is the thing considered positive?no negative? yope neutral? yope
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2011 - 3:24 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Religious services relevant? no
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2011 - 9:03 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Is the idea of an anti-Semite Quaker far-fetched enough that we can safely ignore it? It would be pretty unlikely, although theoretically possible, & you can safely ignore it
Dbw (Dbw)
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Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2011 - 10:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it something about pacifism?

Is it about language?

Does this also apply to pairings of similar groups, such as (no offense intended towards any of the below):
Shakers vs. anti-Semites?
Amish vs. anti-Semites?
Mennonites vs. anti-Semites?
Quakers vs. anti-Zionists?
Quakers vs. anti-immigrationists?
Quakers vs. white supremacists?
Doriana (Doriana)
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Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2011 - 10:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the scrund related to Quakers in general? In a specific time period? Specific location?
Is it related to anti-Semites in general? In a specific time period? Specific location?

Is the origin of Quakers relevant? the origin of anti-Semitism? How long either of them has been around?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2011 - 11:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dbw (Dbw)
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Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2011 - 10:20 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Is it something about pacifism? no

Is it about language? yes

Does this also apply to pairings of similar groups, such as (no offense intended towards any of the below):
Shakers vs. anti-Semites?yes
Amish vs. anti-Semites? no
Mennonites vs. anti-Semites? no
Quakers vs. anti-Zionists? no
Quakers vs. anti-immigrationists? no
Quakers vs. white supremacists? no
Doriana (Doriana)
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Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2011 - 10:49 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Is the scrund related to Quakers in general? see next answer In a specific time period? yesSpecific location? no
Is it related to anti-Semites in general?see next answer In a specific time period? yesSpecific location? no

Is the origin of Quakers relevant? no the origin of anti-Semitism? yope How long either of them has been around? yope
Doriana (Doriana)
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Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2011 - 11:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

[LTPF list of centuries & decades] for the respective time periods please.

German relevant? English?
Hominid (Hominid)
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Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2011 - 11:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are Jews especially relevant?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2011 - 12:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Doriana (Doriana)
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Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2011 - 11:12 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
[LTPF list of centuries & decades] for the respective time periods please. For anti-Semitism, the relevant time period would be before the end of World War II. For Quakers, the relevant time period would be the early days of the movement

German relevant? English?
Dbw (Dbw)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2011 - 12:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does it have to do with another religion? Islam?

Does this apply to Quakers in England only and not the colonies?

You said language was relevant but didn't respond when asked about German and English specifically...?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2011 - 1:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dbw (Dbw)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2011 - 12:20 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Does it have to do with another religion? noIslam? no

Does this apply to Quakers in England only and not the colonies? no

You said language was relevant but didn't respond when asked about German and English specifically...?Sorry! It applies to English. I don't know about German.
Hominid (Hominid)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2011 - 1:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You also skipped my question: are Jews directly relevant?
Shez (Shez)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2011 - 8:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

does it relate to what other people called them? what other people said about them? and the words they used?
Dbw (Dbw)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2011 - 2:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hmm, I'm still trying to figure out what "scrund" people could possibly have about antisemites! If this is just about anti-semites in general, nothing really ties them together except what they DON'T like...

Is this only relevant to antisemitism in the U.S.? Germany? England? (A list of other countries?)

Does it have to do with a particular group of antisemites? A prominent antisemite? You said this was pre-war.... Henry Ford? Charles Lindbergh? Hitler?

Or was this after the start of WW2 but before the end? If not, was it after the start of WW1 but before the end of WW2? Or was it an open-ended time period up to the end of WW2?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2011 - 6:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hominid (Hominid)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2011 - 1:21 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
You also skipped my question Sorry!: are Jews directly relevant? noish
Shez (Shez)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2011 - 8:23 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
does it relate to what other people called them? yesish what other people said about them? see previous & next answers and the words they used? yes
Dbw (Dbw)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2011 - 2:29 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Hmm, I'm still trying to figure out what "scrund" people could possibly have about antisemites! If this is just about anti-semites in general, nothing really ties them together except what they DON'T like... Remember that the scrund is about language

Is this only relevant to antisemitism in the U.S.? no Germany? no England? (A list of other countries? no)

Does it have to do with a particular group of antisemites? yes A prominent antisemite? noYou said this was pre-war.... Henry Ford? Charles Lindbergh? Hitler?The scrund applies to Hitler; I'm not sure about the other two. But it applies to many people other than Hitler

Or was this after the start of WW2 but before the end? If not, was it after the start of WW1 but before the end of WW2? Or was it an open-ended time period up to the end of WW2? The relevant time period ended around the end of World War II
Dbw (Dbw)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2011 - 8:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does it relate to the Nazis in particular? Would it also apply to, say, the KKK?

Does it relate to what the groups are called? Or how the groups refer to themselves?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2011 - 9:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dbw (Dbw)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2011 - 8:57 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Does it relate to the Nazis in particular? no Would it also apply to, say, the KKK? probably

Does it relate to what the groups are called yes? yes Or how the groups refer to themselves?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2011 - 9:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does it relate to what the groups are called? yes Or how the groups refer to themselves? yes
Hominid (Hominid)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2011 - 9:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did people think Quakers made up their own name? And Anti-Semites didn't? When in fact the opposite is true?
Dbw (Dbw)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2011 - 10:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Good call Hominid... or more generally:

Contrary to the terms' modern connotations, "Quaker" was coined as a pejorative while "anti-Semite" was not.
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2011 - 11:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hominid (Hominid)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2011 - 9:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Did people think Quakers made up their own name? possibly And Anti-Semites didn't?yes When in fact the opposite is true? yes
Dbw (Dbw)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2011 - 10:02 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Good call Hominid... or more generally:

Contrary to the terms' modern connotations, "Quaker" was coined as a pejorative while "anti-Semite" was not. That's it!!

******** SPOILER **************
Many people think that 'Quaker' has always been a neutral term & 'anti-Semite' has always been pejorative. But 'Quaker' (like 'Shaker,' '"big bang" theorist,' and 'neoconservative') started out as a pejorative term but eventually became neutral. 'Anti-Semite,' on the other hand, was originally a neutral term that anti-Semites happily used to describe themselves. 'Hard puzzle' is a term I initially used to describe this puzzle. . .but I turned out to be wrong. I hope to see (and think of) more paired scrunds, though. In the meantime, please check out my new puzzle.

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