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Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 5:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Americans, myself included, are more likely than Europeans to have a particular scrund about a certain animal. This scrund started over 100 years ago and it still going strong today. What is it?
Yatin509 (Yatin509)
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Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 6:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the title relevant?

It is about the chicken? egg? chicken and egg?
Shez (Shez)
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Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 6:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

is this animal indigenous to North America? is it found there at all?

is it a mammal? bird? fish? reptile? insect?

does this animal appear in popular culture? books? films? TV?
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 7:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

by Americans, vesica kitteh, I assume you mean residents of the USA alone? Or would any residents of North America work? Central America? South America? Residents of any United States territories/some such that aren't states?

Are residents of all 50 states in the USA equally likely to have it?

Are all residents of the US on the LTPF equally likely to have this scrund? Am I?

If the state makes a difference, are the residents of Florida more likely to have it than others? Residents of the southeastern US, than others? Are Floridians more likely to have it than Californians? Less likely? Equally likely?
Shez (Shez)
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Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 8:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

could it be the red squirrel?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 8:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yatin509
Is the title relevant? Yes, in a lateral way.

It is about the chicken? egg? chicken and egg? No to all for literal chickens and eggs.

Shez
is this animal indigenous to North America? No
is it found there at all? Yes

is it a mammal? bird? fish? reptile? insect? Mammal

does this animal appear in popular culture? Yes
books? Yes
films? Yes
TV? Yes

Kayleetonkslupin

by Americans, vesica kitteh, I assume you mean residents of the USA alone? US mostly.

Or would any residents of North America work? Central America? South America? Residents of any United States territories/some such that aren't states?
Anyone in the world could have the scrund. Those within the US, by whatever definition you choose to use, are more likely.

Are residents of all 50 states in the USA equally likely to have it? Yes

Are all residents of the US on the LTPF equally likely to have this scrund?
Am I? To the best of my knowledge, yes to both

If the state makes a difference,It does not.

Shez
could it be the red squirrel? No.

But now I'm dying to know - what about the red squirrel??
Shez (Shez)
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Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 9:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

when England was covered in oak trees our native squirrel was the red squirrel. then the grey squirrel was introduced from North America and the red squirrel has all but died out south of Scotland. so I thought maybe Americans wouldn't know about the red squirrel

is this animal a ruminant? rodent? horse? bear? cat? dog?

wild? domesticated?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 9:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Very interesting! I love learning new things!!

is this animal a ruminant? No
rodent? No
horse? No
bear? No
cat? No
dog? Yes!

wild? No
domesticated? Yes
Shez (Shez)
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Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 9:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

PS I'm finding out stuff too - my first throught was that there were no foxes in the USA, then no badgers
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 10:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

does it have to do with dogs which are native to North America? Which people /think/ are native to North America? To the USA specifically?

Dog shows relevant?

Purebred dogs? Mutts? Is the scrund about one specific breed? More than one? If more than one, is it that the breeds are related when they are not? Vice versa?

Is the scrund about the AKC? Any of these breed groups?
American Kennel Club recognized breed groups:

Sporting Group?
Hound Group?
Working Group?
Terrier Group?
Toy Group?
Non-Sporting Group?
Herding Group?
Dbw (Dbw)
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Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 11:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it about colorblindness?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Friday, July 08, 2011 - 2:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Shez
PS I'm finding out stuff too - my first throught was that there were no foxes in the USA, then no badgers Hee! I'm pretty sure we do have both of those.

Kayleetonkslupin
does it have to do with dogs which are native to North America? No
Which people /think/ are native to North America? No
To the USA specifically? No

Dog shows relevant? Yes

Purebred dogs? Yes!
Mutts? No
Is the scrund about one specific breed? More than one? About 2 breeds
If more than one, is it that the breeds are related when they are not? Yes, in a way
Vice versa? No

Is the scrund about the AKC? No, but this is relevant for dog shows/purebred dogs.

Any of these breed groups?
Working and Toy group are relvant.

Dbw
Is it about colorblindness? No
Kalira (Kalira)
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Posted on Friday, July 08, 2011 - 4:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh yes, Shez, we've definitely got them :-) We've even got a "Badger State" (Wisconsin) and our own species.

Would Americans be more likely to have this scrund based on similarity in the names of the breeds? or similarity of how they look? Do the names as recognized by the AKC reflect an inauthentic origin (like calling it the "Japanese whatever" when it was developed in America, or giving it a name in German language when it wasn't developed there)?

Do the English have a different name than the AKC names for one? or both of the breeds? Does the British version of the AKC recognize both of the breeds?

Just throwing this out there -- does this have anything to do with the Dobie and the MinPin?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Friday, July 08, 2011 - 4:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kalira
Would Americans be more likely to have this scrund based on similarity in the names of the breeds? No
or similarity of how they look? Anyone could have the scrund for this reason.
Do the names as recognized by the AKC reflect an inauthentic origin (like calling it the "Japanese whatever" when it was developed in America, or giving it a name in German language when it wasn't developed there)? No...

Do the English have a different name than the AKC names for one? or both of the breeds? No to both

Does the British version of the AKC recognize both of the breeds? Yes

Just throwing this out there -- does this have anything to do with the Dobie and the MinPin? It does! But what...

CLARIFICATION: I've realized that there is a reason anyone could have the scrund AND a second reason why Americans are even more likely.
Fionakelleghan (Fionakelleghan)
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Posted on Monday, July 11, 2011 - 4:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it a confusion about pure-breed dogs as compared with mutts? A lot of us believe in the "hybrid vigor."
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Monday, July 11, 2011 - 5:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it a confusion about pure-breed dogs as compared with mutts? No
Fionakelleghan (Fionakelleghan)
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Posted on Monday, July 11, 2011 - 5:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does the scrund have to do with the bigger dogs (with thick coats, love of snow, ready to protect) rather than with toys?

(I think I'm stepping on someone's toes again, but I want to make sure about husky dogs and the like.)
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Monday, July 11, 2011 - 5:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does the scrund have to do with the bigger dogs (with thick coats, love of snow, ready to protect) rather than with toys? No. Perhaps see Kalira's questions. She already determined the two relevant breeds here.
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Monday, July 11, 2011 - 6:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So the Doberman and the miniature pincher? (I know I spelled that wrong...) Is it that one is just a smaller version of the other? (Because that sounds like it is true, to me) That one is the puppy of the other?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 12, 2011 - 2:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So the Doberman and the miniature pincher? Yes

(I know I spelled that wrong...) I know I would, which I why I was thrilled to go along with Kalira's "Min Pin".

Is it that one is just a smaller version of the other? Very on the right track.

That one is the puppy of the other? Less so for this.
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 12, 2011 - 5:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the scrund more likely to appear in America because the Min Pin was introduced there after the Dobermann, although it is an older race?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 12, 2011 - 6:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the scrund more likely to appear in America because the Min Pin was introduced there after the Dobermann, although it is an older race? No...but is getting really close.
Yatin509 (Yatin509)
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Posted on Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 11:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It is that they are born tailless?(Thats why it's chicken and egg)?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 2:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It is that they are born tailless? They are not.
(Thats why it's chicken and egg)? Thus No.
Yatin509 (Yatin509)
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Posted on Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 4:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well ofcource they are not I was asking if that was the scrund or not so you should have said no or yes.... : )
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 5:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I understood what you were asking. That is not the scrund.

I don't understand how tails or no tails relates to chickens and eggs, but since your second question was in relation to the first, I'm sticking with "Thus No", that's not where the title comes from.
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 6:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

RECAP:

Americans, myself included, are more likely than Europeans to have a particular scrund about a certain animal. This scrund started over 100 years ago and it still going strong today. What is it?


We have determined:
* The scrund pertains to Dobermann Pinschers and Miniature Pinschers. (Dobies and Min Pins for short.)
* The American Kennel Club (ACK) is relevant.

* There are two reasons for the scrund – one that anyone could have (and a few on this puzzle seem to based on some of the questions) and one that makes Americans even MORE likely to have the scrund.

* Kaylee was on the right track with “Is it that one is just a smaller version of the other?”, as was Rbruma with “Is the scrund more likely to appear in America because the Min Pin was introduced there after the Dobermann, although it is an older race?” though neither of these is correct.
Biograd (Biograd)
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Posted on Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 10:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it that the Min Pins were specifically bred for their small size? but maybe they were bred for some other quality, and just happen to be smaller as a result (or by chance of breeding)?

Or maybe, do people think there is an official size cutoff above which a Pinscher cannot be called "miniature"?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Friday, July 15, 2011 - 3:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it that the Min Pins were specifically bred for their small size? This is not the scrund, but on the right track.
but maybe they were bred for some other quality, and just happen to be smaller as a result (or by chance of breeding)? Not this.

Or maybe, do people think there is an official size cutoff above which a Pinscher cannot be called "miniature"? No and shades of the scrund itself here.
Biograd (Biograd)
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Posted on Saturday, July 16, 2011 - 4:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it maybe true that the word "Pinscher" does not denote a genetically related subgroup of dogs, rather that the two "types" of Pinschers were bred separately from dogs that were not called Pinschers, and given the name separately?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Monday, July 18, 2011 - 1:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it maybe true that the word "Pinscher" does not denote a genetically related subgroup of dogs, rather that the two "types" of Pinschers were bred separately from dogs that were not called Pinschers, and given the name separately? This is part of the scrund anyone could have, yes.

HINT: This is perhaps where the titles becomes relevant. Also, there are relevant features of the Dobermann and Min Pin that might help.
Biograd (Biograd)
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Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2011 - 6:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Clarification: Which is true, and which is a scrund? I.e., is it true, or was it a (passive, since I've never really thought about it) scrund that there was an ancestral "Pinscher" from which both Dobermanns and Min Pins descend?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2011 - 2:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Clarification: Which is true, and which is a scrund? I.e., is it true, or was it a (passive, since I've never really thought about it) scrund that there was an ancestral "Pinscher" from which both Dobermanns and Min Pins descend?
Ah! Sorry for the confusion.

It is neither TRUE nor the SCRUND that both Dobbies and Min Pins descend from a common "Pinscher" ancestor.

This is, however, on the right track as to the topic of the scrund.
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2011 - 2:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

BLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPER ALERT!!

Oh, wow. This was a really bad one!! Very humble apologies to Rbruma.

Is the scrund more likely to appear in America because the Min Pin was introduced there after the Dobermann, although it is an older race?
CORRECT ANSWER: YES!!!

The Min Pin is an older breed than the Dobie but, as Rbruma statedm, the Dobie was brought the US and recognized by the AKC long before the Min Pin which leads some to believe...[insert scrund here]


I am SO SO sorry for the confusion.
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Friday, July 22, 2011 - 2:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

RECAP
Americans, myself included, are more likely than Europeans to have a particular scrund about a certain animal. This scrund started over 100 years ago and it still going strong today. What is it?


* The scrund pertains to Dobermann Pinschers (Dobies) and Miniature Pinschers (Min Pins).

* Anyone can have this scrund, but Americans are more likely.

* Americans are more likely because the Dobie was introduced to the US and recognized by the AKC well before the Min Pin.

* "Pinscher" is not a subgroup of dogs so much as a category of dog that was bred in a specific location (Germany).

* It is neither TRUE nor the SCRUND that both Dobbies and Min Pins descend from a common "Pinscher" ancestor.

We’ve determined why Americans are more likely to have the scrund, but not what the scrund is in specific.

The title is VERY relevant at this point.

HINT: What common phrase/reference comes to mind with “Chicken and the egg”?
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Friday, July 22, 2011 - 7:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Which came first?"
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Friday, July 22, 2011 - 8:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Which came first?" Yes!! That would be the crux of the scrund. Anyone want to take a stab at it and put this poor puzzle out of it's misery?
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Friday, July 22, 2011 - 9:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the scrund that the Dobie came first and the MinPin was derived from it? The other way round?

My poor puzzle needs questions, too =( I haz a sad, vesica kitteh.
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Monday, July 25, 2011 - 2:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the scrund that the Dobie came first and the MinPin was derived from it? THIS!!
The other way round?

My poor puzzle needs questions, too =( I haz a sad, vesica kitteh. I will take a look at it!
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - 7:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This one has languished long enough…

****** SPOILER ******
Many people, myself included, assume that the Miniature Pinscher is a mini version of the Doberman Pinscher. The two breeds do look very much alike and most mini dogs have been selectively bred for small size down from their larger cousins.

However, this is not the case with the Min Pin and Doberman. Min Pins are the older breed by at least 200 years. In the late 1880’s, Karl Frederich Louis Dobermann began work on a breed with very specific characteristics in mind, among them the look of a "Zwergpinscher" (Min Pin) but 15 times larger!

Americans are particularly likely to have this scrund because the Doberman was recognized by the American Kennel Club almost 20 years before the Min Pin and the breed standard for Min Pin even reads “must appear as a Doberman in miniature”. They do look a lot alike, don’t you think?

The Doberman Pinscher

The Miniature Pinscher

So...which came first? The Min Pin!!
Kalira (Kalira)
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Posted on Wednesday, July 27, 2011 - 9:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Good idea for a puzzle, Vesica! I didn't know the breed histories here, but I love me some puppies (and kitties... and basically all other fuzzy creatures while we're at it). Would've kept asking questions after determining the breeds, but whenever I got here, it seemed like someone else had asked all the pertinent ones I could think of :-) Oh well... I call for more puppies on the LTPF!
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Thursday, July 28, 2011 - 6:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

o yes, kaylee kitteh likes puppies, too! but they cannot haz cheezburgur. =P

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