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Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Username: Sundowner

Post Number: 879
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2011 - 1:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Following the recent spirit of stealing puzzle statements I will add one more. (but your puzzles are so inspiring when it comes to alternative solutions ..)

A man attempts suicide in order to avoid being killed. Because he failed, he survived.

True story.
Balin (Balin)
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Username: Balin

Post Number: 14464
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Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2011 - 1:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Attempted suicide: by poison? Hanging? Drowning? Jumping off a tall object/building? Gunshot? Stabbing? Slashing? Asphyxiation?

Being killed: by one person? Many? By an animal? Potential killer: H? A? M? Someone the man knew? Knew of?

Did the killer think he'd succeeded in his suicide attempt?
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Post Number: 881
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2011 - 2:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Balin
Attempted suicide: by poison? Hanging? Drowning? Jumping off a tall object/building? Gunshot? This one. Stabbing? Slashing? Asphyxiation?

Being killed: by one person? Many? This one, but needs exploring. By an animal? Potential killer: H? A? M? The involved people are very likely all H/A/M. Someone the man knew? Knew of? No, or irrelevant.

Did the killer think he'd succeeded in his suicide attempt? No.
Ciaobella (Ciaobella)
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Username: Ciaobella

Post Number: 16
Registered: 8-2011
Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2011 - 2:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Gunshot- to head? chest? other? relevant?
Were the killers present when he shot himself?
Is the era relevant?
Are gangs involved?
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Username: Sundowner

Post Number: 882
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2011 - 7:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ciaobella
Gunshot- to head? chest? This one. other? relevant?
Were the killers present when he shot himself? No. (ish)
Is the era relevant? Yes.
Are gangs involved? No.
Yatin509 (Yatin509)
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Username: Yatin509

Post Number: 238
Registered: 6-2011
Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2011 - 9:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The bullet didn't hit him or he survived afterwards(at hospital or something)?

Noise of the bullet relevant? And they ran away due to the fear that someone may see them?

Would he have survived if he didn't tried to shoot himself and done something else to make noise?
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Username: Sundowner

Post Number: 885
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2011 - 10:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yatin509
The bullet didn't hit him or he survived afterwards(at hospital or something)? Yes.

Noise of the bullet relevant? No. And they ran away due to the fear that someone may see them? I'm not sure whom you have in mind with "them" but those who were around when he shot did not run away.

Would he have survived if he didn't tried to shoot himself and done something else to make noise? No, he would very likely have died in that case.
Shez (Shez)
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Username: Shez

Post Number: 1671
Registered: 2-2011
Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2011 - 11:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

is this a wartime situation?

did the potential killers arrive and think he was already dead?
Yatin509 (Yatin509)
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Username: Yatin509

Post Number: 241
Registered: 6-2011
Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2011 - 1:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

yes to which one

The bullet didn't hit him?
or he survived afterwards(at hospital or something)?
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Username: Sundowner

Post Number: 887
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2011 - 4:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Shez
is this a wartime situation? Yes.

did the potential killers arrive and think he was already dead? Somebody arrived, was present during the attempted suicide and saw also that the man was not dead.

Yatin509
yes to which one : )

The bullet didn't hit him? It hit him.
or he survived afterwards(at hospital or something)? He recovered from the shot in a hospital.
Balin (Balin)
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Username: Balin

Post Number: 14484
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Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2011 - 5:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it relevant the type of gun that he shot himself with?

The other person present during the suicide attempt: H? A? M? Friend? Enemy? Neutral party?

Did the man actually attempt suicide? Or did he want to shoot himself in a non-lethal spot?
Ciaobella (Ciaobella)
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Post Number: 25
Registered: 8-2011
Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2011 - 6:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wartime era:
21st century? 20th? 19th? 18th? 17th? Before that?
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Post Number: 888
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2011 - 10:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Balin
Is it relevant the type of gun that he shot himself with? Not really. Assume a handgun.
The other person present during the suicide attempt: H? A? M? H/A/M Friend? Enemy? Neutral party? This is difficult to answer as long as only little is known about the circumstances. At any rate, they are not enemy in the military sense, and not friends in the social sense.
Did the man actually attempt suicide? Or did he want to shoot himself in a non-lethal spot? This is a good point. He wanted to survive but it had to look like a real attempt to suicide.

Ciaobella
Wartime era:
21st century? 20th? 19th? 18th? 17th? Before that? 20th century, fifth decade.
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Post Number: 4235
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Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2011 - 1:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

WWII relevant? Is he a prisoner? Or about to be taken prisoner? Or about to be killed? Executed? Because he appears dead, is he: left alone? Taken somewhere? Is the other person a doctor? does the first person know exactly where to shoot himself in order to survive? Does the other person help him: before he shoots? After?
Ciaobella (Ciaobella)
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Post Number: 39
Registered: 8-2011
Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2011 - 5:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Other relevant person: a commanding officer? From his military? from another? a civilian? a supernatural entity?

Was he at any point mistaken to be dead by anyone?
Did the bullet itself save him somehow?
If he had been injured in some other way (such as a fall) would he have been saved?
If he had been shot by enemy fire (and the wound was the same) would he have been saved?
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Username: Sundowner

Post Number: 896
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Friday, August 26, 2011 - 12:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Galfisk
WWII relevant? Yes. Is he a prisoner? Not at the moment when he shot himself.. Or about to be taken prisoner? because it's this one. Or about to be killed? Executed? This would have been the final consequence if not ... Because he appears dead He did not appear dead., is he: left alone? No. Taken somewhere? Yes. Is the other person a doctor? No. does the first person know exactly where to shoot himself in order to survive? We can assume so. Does the other person help him: before he shoots? No. After? Only insofar as he was taken into a hospital.

Ciaobella
Other relevant person: You mean the person(s) who were present when he shot himself? a commanding officer? Likely at least one of them was an officer. From his military? This one, but needs exploration. from another? a civilian? a supernatural entity?
Was he at any point mistaken to be dead by anyone? No.
Did the bullet itself save him somehow? I'm not sure how to answer this ..?
If he had been injured in some other way (such as a fall) would he have been saved? Good point. Probably not.
If he had been shot by enemy fire (and the wound was the same) would he have been saved? But this could have been possible.
Balin (Balin)
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Username: Balin

Post Number: 14507
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Posted on Friday, August 26, 2011 - 2:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he shoot himself to avoid imprisonment/execution? Was he taken away by friendly soldiers? Did those about to take him prisoner leave him because of his wound? Did they witness the shooting? Did they hear it?
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Username: Sundowner

Post Number: 897
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Friday, August 26, 2011 - 6:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Balin
Did he shoot himself to avoid imprisonment/execution? Yes. Was he taken away by friendly soldiers? Yes. Did those about to take him prisoner leave him because of his wound? No, they took him to the hospital. Did they witness the shooting? Yes. Did they hear it? Yes.
Shez (Shez)
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Username: Shez

Post Number: 1681
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Posted on Friday, August 26, 2011 - 9:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

was the man expected to commit suicide as a point of honour? did the other person in the room know he was going to try to kill himself?

had he betrayed someone? deserted?
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Post Number: 898
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Posted on Friday, August 26, 2011 - 2:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Shez
was the man expected Yope. to commit suicide as a point of honour? Yes. did the other person in the room know he was going to try to kill himself? He thought so (remember that the man not actually wanted to kill himself).

had he betrayed someone? Yes. (although there is a legal term that describes it better) deserted? No.
Balin (Balin)
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Username: Balin

Post Number: 14513
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Posted on Friday, August 26, 2011 - 3:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were the friendly soldiers the ones who were about to imprison/execute him? Had he committed treason?
Ciaobella (Ciaobella)
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Post Number: 45
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Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2011 - 12:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does this puzzle relate to a law that prohibits the execution of an injured or ill person?
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Post Number: 899
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Posted on Monday, August 29, 2011 - 8:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Balin
Were the friendly soldiers the ones who were about to imprison/execute him? Yes. They were military police. Had he committed treason? Yes. (although following generations found different accounts for what he did, given the circumstances and his intentions)

Ciaobella
Does this puzzle relate to a law that prohibits the execution of an injured or ill person? This is somewhat relevant. He was not put on trial as long as he was in the hospital. But then ..
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Posted on Monday, August 29, 2011 - 10:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

But then: they lost the war? They won the war? He did something relevant? Laws changed?
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Posted on Monday, August 29, 2011 - 11:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Galfisk
But then: they lost the war? Yes. They won the war? He did something relevant? No. Laws changed? Possibly, but not really relevant to this puzzle.
Balin (Balin)
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Username: Balin

Post Number: 14561
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Posted on Monday, August 29, 2011 - 3:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the enemy free him from the hospital after winning the war? Did they take control of the hospital? The area that the hospital was in?
Ciaobella (Ciaobella)
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Post Number: 71
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Posted on Monday, August 29, 2011 - 7:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Could this have happened in another era? Could it happen today?
Would it help to determine: his country? the specific act of treason? what occurred after the war?
Nazis relevant?
Was he a spy?
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Post Number: 906
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Posted on Monday, August 29, 2011 - 9:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Balin
Did the enemy free him from the hospital after winning the war? Yes. (even before the war finally was over) Did they take control of the hospital? Yes. The area that the hospital was in? And yes.

Ciaobella
Could this have happened in another era? Possibly. Could it happen today? Even this is possible.
Would it help to determine: his country? the specific act of treason? what occurred after the war? Nazis relevant? The answers to all of these, see below.
Was he a spy? No.

Clever Balin has it. Possibly it was a bit straightforward in the end, but I thought that the idea of shooting oneself in order to survive has something lateral.

SPOILER
A man attempts suicide in order to avoid being killed. Because he failed, he survived.

Carl Hans Graf von Hardenberg was one of the people involved in the failed attempt to overthrow Hitler on 20 July 1944. His role in the conspiracy was minor, it was just that the conspirators met in his house a few times and that he supported them with money. Nevertheless, the connection was found out and in August 1944 the military police came to arrest him.

There was a rule in the Wehrmacht that an officer who was accused of a capital crime was given the chance to commit suicide instead of being arrested. If he did so, the case would be dropped and he would appear in the records as "died in honor" (which also would mean that his wife would receive a widow's pension).

So Hardenberg asked one of the officers that came to arrest him for a gun and to be left alone for a few minutes. This was granted and he shot himself in the chest. He survived and was taken to a hospital where he recovered. Later he was moved to the concentration camp of Sachsenhausen.

Due to the time he spent in hospital and the general disorganization towards the end of the war, his trial was opened only in April 1945. A few days later the camp was taken by the US Army and Hardenberg got free.

If he had not shot himself, he surely would not have survived the end of the war. And as he took courses in medicine while being at the university one might conclude that he precisely knew where to shoot in order not to die from it.
Ciaobella (Ciaobella)
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Post Number: 75
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Posted on Monday, August 29, 2011 - 10:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That's amazing! Can you imagine, even knowing how to do so properly, standing there with the gun, pressing it to your body, and pulling the trigger? *shudders* Thank you for sharing such an interesting story.
Balin (Balin)
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Post Number: 14589
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Posted on Monday, August 29, 2011 - 10:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wow, interesting and lateral indeed! That guy must have had some guts...
Shez (Shez)
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Username: Shez

Post Number: 1712
Registered: 2-2011
Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2011 - 12:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

and none of them on the floor!

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