| Author | Message | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1016 Registered: 1-2011 |
We were shocked how convincing he found it. Sad but true. | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 4227 Registered: 9-2009 |
It: something on facebook? Something fake? Something meant to deceive? Something meant to initially deceive, but to be transparent enough to be found out eventually? Is "it" a conspiracy theory? Did "we" create "it"? Are you, Redwine, one of "us"? He: H? A? M? A friend of "us"? An enemy? A target? A person of authority? A person who should have known better? Number of "us" relevant? "We"= H? A? M? Is he gullible? Were you shocked at his gullibility? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1017 Registered: 1-2011 |
GalFisk: It: something on facebook? No. Something fake? Something meant to deceive? Something meant to initially deceive, but to be transparent enough to be found out eventually? No, but something fake and deceiving constitutes a part of "it". Is "it" a conspiracy theory? No. Did "we" create "it"? No. Are you, Redwine, one of "us"? Yes. He: H? A? M? Yes. A friend of "us"? No. An enemy? No. A target? No. A person of authority? Yes. A person who should have known better? Yes. Number of "us" relevant? No. It may somehow help though. "We"= H? A? M? H, A, Mixed. Is he gullible? I wouldn't call it that way, but it may seem so. Were you shocked at his gullibility? Yes, noting my answer above. Great opening. | ||
| Abc (Abc)
Moderator Username: Abc Post Number: 291 Registered: 7-2006 |
A target? No. Which reminds me of the old joke: What is the difference between engineers and civil engineers? Answer: Engineers construct weapons. Civil engineers construct targets. Is facebook at all relevant in this puzzle? Is "it" a statement? A story? Some made-up tale about something supposed to be true, but obviously couldn't be? Such as, "Japanese workers have a rough deal; they must work 1000 hours a month at dismal wages" and there are maximum 744 hours in a month (31 days times 24 hours)? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 14482 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is an April Fools' joke relevant? The person who believed it: did he do something harmful because he believed it? | ||
| Rbruma (Rbruma)
New member Username: Rbruma Post Number: 1676 Registered: 9-2009 |
The recent slaughter in Norway relevant? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1018 Registered: 1-2011 |
Abc: Is facebook at all relevant in this puzzle? If you mean computer website, then no. Is "it" a statement? A statement is a part of "it". A story? Same answer as above. Some made-up tale about something supposed to be true, but obviously couldn't be? No. Such as, "Japanese workers have a rough deal; they must work 1000 hours a month at dismal wages" and there are maximum 744 hours in a month (31 days times 24 hours)? No, nothing like this. Balin: Is an April Fools' joke relevant? No. The person who believed it: did he do something harmful because he believed it? Possibly. Explore. Rbruma: The recent slaughter in Norway relevant? No. | ||
| Abc (Abc)
Moderator Username: Abc Post Number: 294 Registered: 7-2006 |
Are there any facebooks apart from the computer website? A photo album with pictures of faces in it? Was a picture/movie/video relevant? Was he presented to "it" at a specific point in time? Did he need a significant amount of time to aquaint himself with "it" before finding it convincing? More than 10 seconds? A minute? Hour? Day? Was it something he or someone else found on the internet? An imitation of something, that he took for the real thing? An argument? | ||
| Kalira (Kalira)
New member Username: Kalira Post Number: 732 Registered: 2-2009 |
Abc, there is the type of facebook the company took its name from: see here. /randomfactoid | ||
| Yatin509 (Yatin509)
New member Username: Yatin509 Post Number: 247 Registered: 6-2011 |
Is it about the LTP forum? Is it something about any other website? Features of a website? | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 4243 Registered: 9-2009 |
Is it an urban legend? | ||
| Shez (Shez)
New member Username: Shez Post Number: 1684 Registered: 2-2011 |
was it a financial scam? did he lose money? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1019 Registered: 1-2011 |
Abc: Are there any facebooks apart from the computer website? A photo album with pictures of faces in it? Yes. Was a picture/movie/video relevant? See above. Was he presented to "it" at a specific point in time? I'm not sure if I understand the question correctly. Did he need a significant amount of time to aquaint himself with "it" before finding it convincing? Yes. More than 10 seconds? A minute? Hour? Day? More. Was it something he or someone else found on the internet? No. An imitation of something, that he took for the real thing? No. An argument? OTRT. Yatin509: Is it about the LTP forum? No. Is it something about any other website? No. Features of a website? No. GalFisk: Is it an urban legend? No. Shez: was it a financial scam? "it" was not, but financial scam is relevant. did he lose money? He did not. | ||
| Abc (Abc)
Moderator Username: Abc Post Number: 301 Registered: 7-2006 |
An "argument" can mean two things in English, I believe: 1) A discussion between two disagreeing parties 2) Something that one says in order to win someone over for one's own opinion Which of 1) or 2) is the most OTRT? | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 4245 Registered: 9-2009 |
Is it an urban legend? | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 4246 Registered: 9-2009 |
Is it an urban legend? | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 4247 Registered: 9-2009 |
Whoops sorry. 419 (Nigeria) scam relevant? Is he supposed to be an expert? Did someone intend to trick him? Is a fakery relevant? Photo manipulation? Photoshop? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 4852 Registered: 5-2003 |
Is a scrund relevant? | ||
| Ciaobella (Ciaobella)
New member Username: Ciaobella Post Number: 60 Registered: 8-2011 |
Is "he" a policeman? A politician? An employer? Did this happen within the last month? year? decade? century? Possible harm: was someone physically injured? did someone experience financial loss? did a reputation suffer? did a relationship suffer? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1025 Registered: 1-2011 |
Abc: An "argument" can mean two things in English, I believe: 1) A discussion between two disagreeing parties 2) Something that one says in order to win someone over for one's own opinion This. Which of 1) or 2) is the most OTRT? The latter. GalFisk: 419 (Nigeria) scam relevant? No. Is he supposed to be an expert? Yesish. Did someone intend to trick him? Maybe. Is a fakery relevant?No. Photo manipulation? No. Photoshop? No. JenBurdoo: Is a scrund relevant? No. Ciaobella: Is "he" a policeman? No, but OTRT. A politician? An employer? No to the rest. Did this happen within the last month? year? decade? This, although the whole thing began in 1990s. century? Possible harm: was someone physically injured? did someone experience financial loss? This. did a reputation suffer? This too. did a relationship suffer? No to the rest. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 14559 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is any form of scam relevant? Is "he" involved in government? Law? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1026 Registered: 1-2011 |
Balin: Is any form of scam relevant? Yes, but it is not much relevant. Is "he" involved in government? Law? The latter. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 14576 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is he a lawyer? A judge? Does he work in a courtroom? A district attorney? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1027 Registered: 1-2011 |
Balin: Is he a lawyer? A judge? This. Does he work in a courtroom? A district attorney? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 14596 Registered: 4-2010 |
Did he take a bribe? Corrupt justice? Is a trial relevant? An appointment to a certain office? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1029 Registered: 1-2011 |
Balin: Did he take a bribe? No. Corrupt justice? No. Is a trial relevant? Yes. An appointment to a certain office? No, just a trial. | ||
| Shez (Shez)
New member Username: Shez Post Number: 1714 Registered: 2-2011 |
is he a private detective? a soldier? a government official? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1031 Registered: 1-2011 |
Shez: is he a private detective? a soldier? a government official? He is a judge, see above. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 14614 Registered: 4-2010 |
Was the judge presiding over the trial? Did he find an argument convincing? A piece of evidence? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1032 Registered: 1-2011 |
Balin: Was the judge presiding over the trial? Yes. Did he find an argument convincing? A piece of evidence? What he found convincing, was the situation composed from evidence and arguments. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 14626 Registered: 4-2010 |
Did that convince him as to the verdict? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1034 Registered: 1-2011 |
Balin: Did that convince him as to the verdict? I didn't hear the verdict, as the trial was postponed, but it seemed that the verdict could be strongly influenced by this. | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 4284 Registered: 9-2009 |
Technical evidence relevant? Witness statement? Relevant what the case was about? Was it a criminal case? Relevant? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1038 Registered: 1-2011 |
GalFisk: Technical evidence relevant? As tape or video recordings? No. Witness statement? Yesish. Relevant what the case was about? Maybe mildly. Was it a criminal case? Yes. Relevant? To some extent. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 14636 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is the exact crime relevant? Was the judge influenced unduly by one of the witnesses? One of the lawyers? The defendant? The accuser? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1039 Registered: 1-2011 |
Balin: Is the exact crime relevant? No. Was the judge influenced unduly by one of the witnesses? No. One of the lawyers? No. The defendant? No. The accuser? No. Exploring what "we" did there may bring some help. | ||
| Shez (Shez)
New member Username: Shez Post Number: 1735 Registered: 2-2011 |
are "we" the jury? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1047 Registered: 1-2011 |
Shez: are "we" the jury? No. In Poland we don't have juries. | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 4299 Registered: 9-2009 |
We: accused? Accusers? Witnesses? Audience? Experts? Were you present in the courtroom? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1048 Registered: 1-2011 |
GalFisk: We: accused? Accusers? Witnesses? Audience? This, but... Experts? Were you present in the courtroom? Yes. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 14646 Registered: 4-2010 |
Were any of the audience involved in the trial? | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 4303 Registered: 9-2009 |
Were you friends of the accused? The victim? Was there a victim? Or anyone else in the room? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1049 Registered: 1-2011 |
Balin: Were any of the audience involved in the trial? What do you mean? We were neither witnesses nor parties. GalFisk: Were you friends of the accused? No. The victim? No. Was there a victim? Yes. Or anyone else in the room? Judge with two assistants, court secretary, prosecutor, accused with his lawyer, three victims, one witness with police and us. tiny HINT: It happened in 2006 or 2007. | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 4312 Registered: 9-2009 |
Ah I mean were you friends with anyone else? so were you friends with: Judge? Assistants? court secretary? prosecutor? accused? his lawyer? witness? police? Relevanr why you were there? Were you interested in this particular case? Was the evidence he believed: damning? Freeing? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1050 Registered: 1-2011 |
GalFisk: Ah I mean were you friends with anyone else? so were you friends with: Judge? Assistants? court secretary? prosecutor? accused? his lawyer? witness? police? No, we were not friends of anybody in the courtroom Relevanr why you were there? Yes. Were you interested in this particular case? No. Was the evidence he believed: damning? This. Freeing? | ||
| Sundowner (Sundowner)
New member Username: Sundowner Post Number: 916 Registered: 6-2003 |
From your profile I see that you're a lawyer. Were you in the courtroom as part of your education? Were you there with fellow students? Were the relevant pieces of evidence statements of witnesses? Did the argument contain a logical fallacy? Did it fail to take into account other possibilities? (in the sense: the witness says A, the witness is unreliable, so the contrary of A must be true) .. from this I would conclude that it was the prosecution who made this argument ..? Did the prosecutor know that his argument was fallacious? but wanted to get done with this case? Did the crime involve: theft? burglary? robbery? fraud? tax evasion? blackmailing? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1051 Registered: 1-2011 |
Sundowner: From your profile I see that you're a lawyer. Were you in the courtroom as part of your education? Yes. Were you there with fellow students? Yes. Were the relevant pieces of evidence statements of witnesses? statements of the victim, but it's not the only relevant piece of evidence. Did the argument contain a logical fallacy? I would call it rather a false assumption. Did it fail to take into account other possibilities? possibly. (in the sense: the witness says A, the witness is unreliable, so the contrary of A must be true) Nothing like this. .. from this I would conclude that it was the prosecution who made this argument ..? It was the initiative of the judge. Judge asked a question to the victim. Did the prosecutor know that his argument was fallacious? see above. but wanted to get done with this case? Both the prosecutor and the judge wanted to be done with the case. Did the crime involve: theft? burglary? robbery? fraud? This. tax evasion? blackmailing? As Sundowner discovered why I was there, I can add that our teacher took us to see this particular case because it was likely to start and end during one hearing and also because the judge was to be the best judge in this court. | ||
| Shez (Shez)
New member Username: Shez Post Number: 1750 Registered: 2-2011 |
were you shocked that the judge found the victim's reply convincing? was it the victim who made a false assumption? or did the judge falsely assume something? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1052 Registered: 1-2011 |
Shez: were you shocked that the judge found the victim's reply convincing? Yes. was it the victim who made a false assumption? No. or did the judge falsely assume something? Yes. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 14659 Registered: 4-2010 |
Did the victim's statement damn himself? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1053 Registered: 1-2011 |
Balin: Did the victim's statement damn himself? No. | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 4325 Registered: 9-2009 |
Is the photo album mentioned earlier part of the evidence? Or mentioned in the statement? Or present in the courtroom? Or otherwise part of the proceedings? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1059 Registered: 1-2011 |
GalFisk: Is the photo album mentioned earlier part of the evidence? Yes. Or mentioned in the statement? Yes. Or present in the courtroom? Yes. Or otherwise part of the proceedings? All the relevant piece of proceedings is connected with it. | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 4326 Registered: 9-2009 |
Is a specific photo relevant? More than one photo? All photos? Relevant who it belongs to? If so: accused? A victim? All victims? Someone else? Relevant exactly what the charge is? | ||
| Ciaobella (Ciaobella)
New member Username: Ciaobella Post Number: 105 Registered: 8-2011 |
Did the victim intentionally mislead? Or was it an innocent misunderstanding? Relevant why the judge was convinced by the evidence (as in, personal bias, intoxication, etc.)? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1060 Registered: 1-2011 |
GalFisk: Is a specific photo relevant? Yes but... More than one photo? All photos? This too. Relevant who it belongs to? Yes, probably FA. If so: accused? A victim? All victims? Someone else? This. Relevant exactly what the charge is? No. Ciaobella: Did the victim intentionally mislead? No. Or was it an innocent misunderstanding? No. Relevant why the judge was convinced by the evidence (as in, personal bias, intoxication, etc.)? Nothing of this sort. HINTS: The situation could happen during any criminal trial, under one condition. Relevant what was going to be proved. | ||
| Shez (Shez)
New member Username: Shez Post Number: 1765 Registered: 2-2011 |
was the point of the photos to prove someone's identity? to prove that they had been in a particular place? that they had been with another person? was it about whether the photos could be considered pornographic? offensive? incriminating? embarassing? had the photos been posted on the internet? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 14679 Registered: 4-2010 |
Photoshop/photo editing relevant? | ||
| Sundowner (Sundowner)
New member Username: Sundowner Post Number: 917 Registered: 6-2003 |
Did the victim recognize the accused on a photo? or not recognize? was the victim given a stack of photographs and he was asked whether he recognizes somebody? did the victim make a statement as to "these kind of people all look alike"? Was the defendant involved in some kind of investment fraud? one of these "financial pyramids" going on in the 90s? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1061 Registered: 1-2011 |
Shez: was the point of the photos to prove someone's identity? Yes. to prove that they had been in a particular place? that they had been with another person? Those two too, but identity was the main reason. was it about whether the photos could be considered pornographic? offensive? incriminating? embarassing? had the photos been posted on the internet? No to all. Balin: Photoshop/photo editing relevant? No. Sundowner: Did the victim recognize the accused on a photo? please rephrase the question. or not recognize? was the victim given a stack of photographs and he was asked whether he recognizes somebody? Yes, explore. did the victim make a statement as to "these kind of people all look alike"? No. Was the defendant involved in some kind of investment fraud? No. one of these "financial pyramids" going on in the 90s? No, nothing so complicated, just ordinary business fraud. | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1069 Registered: 1-2011 |
RECAP & SOME HINTS When I was a third year student, I learned criminal procedure. Our teacher wanted us to see how it works in practice, so she took us to the court to see the trial. She chose the case, which was likely to start and end on one hearing (she wanted us to see whole trial). The case was held by the best judge in that court. The judge knew there will be students on the audience, he prepared himself particularly well for that occassion. The case was about fraud - a man drained much money from a small company run by the three men (victims). There was a need to determine the identity of the culprit (whether the accused was the same man who did business with the victims). That's where photo album is relevant. Also a statement of the victim is relevant. Explore why there was a need to prove identity of the culprit, while both accused and victims were present in the court. Time starts to press me a bit, I would love to have this puzzle solved before my wedding, which is soon... | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 14710 Registered: 4-2010 |
Sept. 17, right? Did the judge declare that the accused was the culprit? Was not? Had any of the victims seen him before? Was the photo a family photo? Relevant? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1071 Registered: 1-2011 |
Balin: Sept. 17, right? Right. Did the judge declare that the accused was the culprit? This. Was not? Had any of the victims seen him before? Yes, all did. Was the photo a family photo? No. Relevant? Yes. | ||
| Shez (Shez)
New member Username: Shez Post Number: 1799 Registered: 2-2011 |
had the photo been altered in some way? or was it difficult to identify the culprit from the photos? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1072 Registered: 1-2011 |
Shez: had the photo been altered in some way? No and FA. or was it difficult to identify the culprit from the photos? Assume no. | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 4345 Registered: 9-2009 |
Is an alibi relevant? Did the judge ask a leading question? Was it a photo of the culprit? Of someone else? Of something relevant? Relevant who took the photo? Or when? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1074 Registered: 1-2011 |
GalFisk: Is an alibi relevant? No. Did the judge ask a leading question? Yes. Was it a photo of the culprit? FA. Of someone else? FA. Of something relevant? FA. Relevant who took the photo? No, but you have already discovered that it's relevant who it belonged to. Or when? No. | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 4347 Registered: 9-2009 |
Did the photo book belong to: the culprit? A victim? Someone else? Was the ownership of the book ever in question? Did the judge ask a yes/no question? Did he make a false assumption? Did he look at the photos? Did someone else look at the photos? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1076 Registered: 1-2011 |
GalFisk: Did the photo book belong to: the culprit? A victim? Someone else? This. Was the ownership of the book ever in question? No. Did the judge ask a yes/no question? Yes. Did he make a false assumption? Yes. Did he look at the photos? Yes but irrelevant. Did someone else look at the photos? Yes. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 14729 Registered: 4-2010 |
Did the judge rely on someone else's identification? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1077 Registered: 1-2011 |
Balin: Did the judge rely on someone else's identification? On the victim's identification, explore. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 14733 Registered: 4-2010 |
Did the victim identify the accused by the photo album? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1078 Registered: 1-2011 |
Balin: Did the victim identify the accused by the photo album? Yes, but... I think you have a FA concerning the photo book and identification. | ||
| Sundowner (Sundowner)
New member Username: Sundowner Post Number: 919 Registered: 6-2003 |
Did the victims identify the culprit at some earlier occasion? (at the police station?) from the same set of photographs? Were the photos given to the victims by the police? Was it basically photos of notorious fraudsters? Did the victims ever meet the culprit in person (before the trial)? Did the culprit build his defense basically on claiming that he is not the man they are looking for? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1080 Registered: 1-2011 |
Sundowner: Did the victims identify the culprit at some earlier occasion? YES!!!(at the police station? irr.) from the same set of photographs? YES. Were the photos given to the victims by the police? Yes. Was it basically photos of notorious fraudsters? No. Did the victims ever meet the culprit in person (before the trial)? Yes. Did the culprit build his defense basically on claiming that he is not the man they are looking for? Yesish. | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 4353 Registered: 9-2009 |
Did the judge assume this earlier identification was correct? Or did he make an assumption about the photo album? Could he be sure: it was the same album that the police had given to the victims? That it had not been tampered with since it was given to the victims? | ||
| Sundowner (Sundowner)
New member Username: Sundowner Post Number: 920 Registered: 6-2003 |
So basically the following happened: three men were ripped off by a business partner? they went to the police? they identified the man on a photo? the police arrested the man on the photo? but the man claimed that he is not the one on the photo? So the judge was left with two contradictory statements ("He is the one", "I'm not the one") and had to decide whom to believe? Did he want to have additional evidence against the culprit? or did he investigate the possibility that the victims (or the police?) were mistaken? Did the police know the name of the man on the photo before they arrested him? Did they indeed arrest the wrong man? Did the photo show the culprit together with (one of) the victims? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1081 Registered: 1-2011 |
GalFisk: Did the judge assume this earlier identification was correct? No, but... Or did he make an assumption about the photo album? No. Could he be sure: it was the same album that the police had given to the victims? Yes. That it had not been tampered with since it was given to the victims? Yes. Sundowner: So basically the following happened: three men were ripped off by a business partner? they went to the police? they identified the man on a photo? the police arrested the man on the photo? but the man claimed that he is not the one on the photo? First the man was caught and then the photo book was showed to victims. And the man claimed that he is not the culprit. So the judge was left with two contradictory statements ("He is the one", "I'm not the one") and had to decide whom to believe? Basically yes. Did he want to have additional evidence against the culprit? No. or did he investigate the possibility that the victims (or the police?) were mistaken? Yes. He wanted to confirm the identification. Did the police know the name of the man on the photo before they arrested him? Unknown. Did they indeed arrest the wrong man? I don't know. I haven't heard the verdict. IMHO, the man caught was the right one. Did the photo show the culprit together with (one of) the victims? No. | ||
| Rbruma (Rbruma)
New member Username: Rbruma Post Number: 1681 Registered: 9-2009 |
You said that the fact that the judge looked at the photos is irrelevant. In that case: Did he look at the cover of the facebook? Is some of its physical features relevant? Relevant what were the ages of the people(s) depicted in the facebook? Relevant when the pictures were taken? Was the question asked by the judge: "Do you see this man present in the court room?" Was it clear from other evidence that the one depicted in the photo is the guilty one, but still unclear (at least for the judge) if he is the same one with the defendant? You said there were three victims. Is it relevant to whom the question was asked? If to all three, who answered? Was the answer more than a simple "Yes" or "No"? Such as "Yes, but..." Is the defendant presumably in the photo(s) or is he presumed to have been the author of them? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1085 Registered: 1-2011 |
Rbruma: You said that the fact that the judge looked at the photos is irrelevant. Yes. In that case: Did he look at the cover of the facebook? Irrelevant. Is some of its physical features relevant? No. Relevant what were the ages of the people(s) depicted in the facebook? Yesish. Relevant when the pictures were taken? Not when they were taken, but.... There is something very important in this question. Was the question asked by the judge: "Do you see this man present in the court room?" NO! That's what the judge tried to avoid. Was it clear from other evidence that the one depicted in the photo is the guilty one No, but it was very probable, but still unclear (at least for the judge) if he is the same one with the defendant? No, the one on the photo was certainly the defendant. You said there were three victims. Yes. Is it relevant to whom the question was asked? No. If to all three, who answered? Irr. Was the answer more than a simple "Yes" or "No"? Such as "Yes, but..." Assume it was simply yes. Is the defendant presumably in the photo This(s) or is he presumed to have been the author of them? | ||
| Rbruma (Rbruma)
New member Username: Rbruma Post Number: 1682 Registered: 9-2009 |
Let's try more -- so the one on the photo was certainly the defendant, it was very probable that this guy was the wrongdoer, however the judge led a further more question to establish his identity? Someone else's identity? Is his name relevant? Was he a transsexual? John Doe becoming Jane Doe or the reverse? Is someone else relevant, apart from the ones present there? By leading the question, was the judge trying to get the testimony of the victim that the defendant did the wrong he was accused of? That he didn't? That the defendant is in the picture? That he is not? Something else? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1086 Registered: 1-2011 |
Rbruma: Let's try more -- so the one on the photo was certainly the defendant, it was very probable that this guy was the wrongdoer, however the judge led a further more question to establish his identity? Yes. Someone else's identity? No. Is his name relevant? No. Was he a transsexual? No John Doe becoming Jane Doe or the reverse? No Is someone else relevant, apart from the ones present there? No By leading the question, was the judge trying to get the testimony of the victim that the defendant did the wrong he was accused of? That he didn't? That the defendant is in the picture? That he is not? Something else? Something else. HINT: The judge didn't want to ask any of the victims: Is the man you see in court the one who frauded you, for two reasons. | ||
| Rbruma (Rbruma)
New member Username: Rbruma Post Number: 1683 Registered: 9-2009 |
If the judge would have asked "Is this the one who frauded you?" (answered "Yes") would the defendant been able to escape punishment through some technicality of the law (like double jeopardy)? Is double jeopardy at least OTRT here? Are previous trials involving the same defendant and the same victims relevant? Establishing the defendant's identity: that he is who he pretends he is? That his name is correct? That he did the fraud? Did the defendant recognize that he was the one in the photo? Did he challenged that? Relevant? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1087 Registered: 1-2011 |
Rbruma: If the judge would have asked "Is this the one who frauded you?" (answered "Yes") would the defendant been able to escape punishment through some technicality of the law (like double jeopardy)? No, but the judge thought that in that case the identification could be questioned later. Is double jeopardy at least OTRT here? No. Are previous trials involving the same defendant and the same victims relevant? No. Establishing the defendant's identity: that he is who he pretends he is? That his name is correct? That he did the fraud? This. Did the defendant recognize that he was the one in the photo? Defendant didn't see the photos. Did he challenged that? Relevant? The defendant claimed that he didn't fraud. | ||
| Ciaobella (Ciaobella)
New member Username: Ciaobella Post Number: 118 Registered: 8-2011 |
Are twins involved? Did the judge avoid asking "is he in the courtroom" because it would be easy to just assume that the person in the defendant's chair is the one you should point out? Was the problem with the book the fact that, having seen it before, the victim knew that he just had to choose the one he chose before (as in, it was the second one on the first page)? Is that close? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1088 Registered: 1-2011 |
Ciaobella: Are twins involved? No. Did the judge avoid asking "is he in the courtroom" because it would be easy to just assume that the person in the defendant's chair is the one you should point out? YES!!! Was the problem with the book the fact that, having seen it before, the victim knew that he just had to choose the one he chose before (as in, it was the second one on the first page)? Is that close? It's somewhat OTRT. RECAP soon. | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1089 Registered: 1-2011 |
promised RECAP & few HINTS: When I was a third year student, I learned criminal procedure. Our teacher wanted us to see how it works in practice, so she took us to the court to see the trial. She chose the case, which was likely to start and end on one hearing (she wanted us to see whole trial). The case was held by the best judge in that court. The judge knew there will be students on the audience, he prepared himself particularly well for that occassion. The case was about fraud - a man drained much money from a small company run by the three men (victims). There was a need to determine the identity of the culprit (whether the accused was the same man who did business with the victims). The identification was done in the early stage of investigation. Victims identified a culprit in the police photo album used on such occassions. The judge wanted to confirm this identification. He tried to avoid asking: is the culprit the one here in the courtroom, because he thought everybody should point out the accused and this could be easily questioned in supreme courts. To confirm whether the early, photo identification, was correct or not, the judge asked a yes/no question to the victim (irrelevant which one). The question had an underlying false assumption. Due to this false assumption we considered the question foolish, yet the judge found it - and the answer - convincing. The answer led to identification being confirmed. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 14784 Registered: 4-2010 |
Was the false assumption that the accused was not the fraudster? That any of the victims was not actually a victim? Was the question intended to catch someone off guard? The victim(s)? The accused? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1095 Registered: 1-2011 |
Balin: Was the false assumption that the accused was not the fraudster? That any of the victims was not actually a victim? No to both. Assumption was simple and fairly common. I would say it's so common that people are not normally aware of it. But in this case it was extraordinarily visible. Was the question intended to catch someone off guard? No. The victim(s)? The accused? | ||
| Shez (Shez)
New member Username: Shez Post Number: 1855 Registered: 2-2011 |
did the judge ask whether the culprit was the person in a particular photo? did the judge assume the person in the photo was the person being tried? did he assume that the victim was a reliable witness? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1097 Registered: 1-2011 |
Shez: did the judge ask whether the culprit was the person in a particular photo? No. did the judge assume the person in the photo was the person being tried? Irr. did he assume that the victim was a reliable witness? That is very OTRT. | ||
| Shez (Shez)
New member Username: Shez Post Number: 1866 Registered: 2-2011 |
had the witness met the perp? did the witness need glasses? did the witness have a good memory? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1103 Registered: 1-2011 |
Shez: had the witness met the perp? There were no witnesses, victims only. Victims met the perp. did the witness need glasses? No. did the witness have a good memory? Irr. | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1106 Registered: 1-2011 |
HINT: The question of the judge was in the form of conditional question. | ||
| Ciaobella (Ciaobella)
New member Username: Ciaobella Post Number: 154 Registered: 8-2011 |
So... If <event?,>... that type of condition? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1109 Registered: 1-2011 |
Ciaobella: So... If <event?,>... that type of condition? Yes, but "event" is not the best word for it. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 14950 Registered: 4-2010 |
If guilty, then...? If innocent, then...? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1111 Registered: 1-2011 |
Balin: If guilty, then...? If innocent, then...? No to both. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 14968 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is any part of the statement related to the identification? To the album? | ||
| Shez (Shez)
New member Username: Shez Post Number: 1960 Registered: 2-2011 |
if he's the person in this photo then he's guilty? then he's innocent? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1113 Registered: 1-2011 |
Balin: Is any part of the statement related to the identification? To the album? Yes, the first part of the statement is related directly to identification, indirectly to the album. Shez: if he's the person in this photo then he's guilty? then he's innocent? No to both. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 14980 Registered: 4-2010 |
If you can identify the fraudster...? If you can identify the accused...? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1114 Registered: 1-2011 |
Balin: If you can identify the fraudster...? This is OTRT If you can identify the accused...? No. If noone gets it, I will post $poiler tomorrow, as I'm going on holiday and will be off for two weeks. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 15035 Registered: 4-2010 |
If you know who committed the crime...? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1115 Registered: 1-2011 |
Balin: If you know who committed the crime...? No. As noone got it and I will be off for some time, here goes... ********SPOILER*********** The judge knew that there had been an earlier identification, when the victim identified the culprit in the police photo album and said that he was sure about the identification. During the trial, conducted about 10 years later, judge had to confirm whether the accused is the culprit. So he asked the victim: "If you had not been sure about the photo identification 10 years ago, would you have said you had been sure?" When victim obviously responded "No", judge found it a convincing proof of the culprit's identification. He didn't notice that noone would probably confess that he had misled the police (or even lied), after 10 years, during the trial which can result in getting quite an amount of money. Thanks to everybody playing. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 15052 Registered: 4-2010 |
Clever, and enjoy your holiday! |
