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Whirligig (Whirligig)
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Posted on Saturday, August 18, 2012 - 12:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

He put his work on top of his enemies'. He should have known better back then.

He = his = his
Whirligig (Whirligig)
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Posted on Saturday, August 18, 2012 - 12:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

He = his = his = he, that is.
Shez (Shez)
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Posted on Saturday, August 18, 2012 - 5:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

written work? homework? artwork?
Beachbum (Beachbum)
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Posted on Saturday, August 18, 2012 - 7:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the result of his work a physical object?
If so does "on top of" mean that if his work was physically on top of some enemies physical embodiment of the same sort of work?

Now, about "back then". is this less than a year? less then a decade?


"work"
Whirligig (Whirligig)
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Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 4:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

written work? homework? artwork? this, but beware FA

Is the result of his work a physical object? noish; this should clear up the potential FA
If so does "on top of" mean that if his work was physically on top of some enemies physical embodiment of the same sort of work? noish

Now, about "back then". is this less than a year? less then a decade? no to both
Jumpingjack (Jumpingjack)
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Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 12:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was he a composer? (of music) When he put his work 'on top of' his enemies', did he put his own melody etc on top of their previously-composed harmonies/beats?
Or was it a work of literature? Did he base his new work on the text of his enemies?

back then = the moment when he put his work on top of his enemies'? Is the exact year relevant? Is it tied to a specific historical event? Is the 'he' someone well-known?

Were they his personal enemies? Or were they more ideological enemies? Enemies due to country of origin? Difference in religion? Was it during wartime?

Why should he have known better:
did he suffer financially as a result? physically? did he die because of it?
Jumpingjack (Jumpingjack)
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Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 12:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just noticed the title. Beatles relevant?
Whirligig (Whirligig)
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Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 3:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was he a composer? (of music) yes When he put his work 'on top of' his enemies', did he put his own melody etc on top of their previously-composed harmonies/beats? yes
Or was it a work of literature? no Did he base his new work on the text of his enemies? so no

back then = the moment when he put his work on top of his enemies'? yes Is the exact year relevant? no Is it tied to a specific historical event? no Is the 'he' someone well-known? yope

Were they his personal enemies? no Or were they more ideological enemies? yes Enemies due to country of origin? potentially, though not what I had in mind Difference in religion? yes Was it during wartime? no

Why should he have known better:
did he suffer financially as a result? physically? did he die because of it? no to all

Just noticed the title. Beatles relevant? the title is slightly relevant, but the connection is more complicated than that
Jumpingjack (Jumpingjack)
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Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 4:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Since he should have known better, is it correct to assume that the outcome of his actions were negative? Did they have a negative impact on himself? On his enemies? On humankind in general? On those who shared his religious beliefs?

Are the specific religions relevant?
Was he a:
Christian? Buddhist? Muslim? Jew? Hindu? Sikh? Other?

Were his enemies:
Christians? Buddhists? Muslims? Jews? Hindus? Sikhs? Other?

Did his enemies realise that he had 'stolen' their works? Did he intend for them to find out? Was he making some sort of statement by putting his work on top of theirs?
Whirligig (Whirligig)
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Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 6:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Since he should have known better, is it correct to assume that the outcome of his actions were negative? no Did they have a negative impact on himself? On his enemies? noish, no to others On humankind in general? On those who shared his religious beliefs?

Are the specific religions relevant? yes
Was he a:
Christian? this Buddhist? Muslim? Jew? Hindu? Sikh? Other?

Were his enemies:
Christians? this Buddhists? Muslims? Jews? Hindus? Sikhs? Other?

Did his enemies realise that he had 'stolen' their works? no but irrel Did he intend for them to find out? no, slight FA Was he making some sort of statement by putting his work on top of theirs? unknown, irrel
Jumpingjack (Jumpingjack)
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Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 7:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

He:
Protestant? Catholic? Anglican? Baptist? Puritan? Lutheran? Quaker? Other type of Christianity that I haven't thought of?
Same questions for his enemies.

Regarding the work that resulted from this action of his:
Did he use it for a specific purpose? Was it religious music? To be played during a certain occasion?

When you say 'he should have known better', are you merely referring to the morality of plagiarizing the work of others'? Or is there another specific reason why it was a bad idea? If so, is this reason especially applicable 'back then', as opposed to the present day?
Whirligig (Whirligig)
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Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 9:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

He:
Protestant? Catholic? this Anglican? Baptist? Puritan? Lutheran? Quaker? Other type of Christianity that I haven't thought of?
Same questions for his enemies. Lutheran

Regarding the work that resulted from this action of his:
Did he use it for a specific purpose? yes Was it religious music? yes To be played during a certain occasion? yope

When you say 'he should have known better', are you merely referring to the morality of plagiarizing the work of others'? no Or is there another specific reason why it was a bad idea? yope, FA If so, is this reason especially applicable 'back then', as opposed to the present day? yes
Jumpingjack (Jumpingjack)
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Posted on Monday, August 20, 2012 - 11:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok, let's try to fix the time period.
Did it occur in the 21st century? 20th century? 19th century? 18th century? 17th century? 16th century?

Did this happen in Europe?
Whirligig (Whirligig)
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Posted on Monday, August 20, 2012 - 10:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok, let's try to fix the time period.
Did it occur in the 21st century? 20th century? 19th century? this 18th century? and this 17th century? 16th century?

Did this happen in Europe? yes
Ciaobella (Ciaobella)
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Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2012 - 2:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the composer intend to place his music over the other? Did he mean to make a "Catholic" piece out of a "Lutheran" one?
Whirligig (Whirligig)
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Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2012 - 2:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the composer intend to place his music over the other? yes Did he mean to make a "Catholic" piece out of a "Lutheran" one? YES!ish
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - 1:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So were the "Lutheran" and "Catholic" notes combined? Or were just the Catholic ones played?
Whirligig (Whirligig)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 - 1:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So were the "Lutheran" and "Catholic" notes combined? yesish Or were just the Catholic ones played? noish
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 - 3:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hmm... I'm not too familiar with Lutheran/Catholic songs. Did the composer intend for the piece to function as both a Lutheran & Catholic song?
Whirligig (Whirligig)
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Posted on Saturday, October 27, 2012 - 12:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hmm... I'm not too familiar with Lutheran/Catholic songs. Did the composer intend for the piece to function as both a Lutheran & Catholic song? no; you have a bit of an FA
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Saturday, October 27, 2012 - 12:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Should we be focusing on religion as the main difference between the songs?
Whirligig (Whirligig)
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Posted on Saturday, October 27, 2012 - 7:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Should we be focusing on religion as the main difference between the songs? yope, FA
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2012 - 1:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the songs religious at all?
Whirligig (Whirligig)
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Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2012 - 2:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the songs religious at all? yope, FA
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2012 - 1:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the words of the songs religious? (Do they have words at all?) The actual music?
Whirligig (Whirligig)
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Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2012 - 3:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the words of the songs religious? yope (Do they have words at all? yope; this is the FA) The actual music? no
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, October 29, 2012 - 11:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is either of the songs (both?) a chant?
Whirligig (Whirligig)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - 1:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is either of the songs (both?) a chant? no to both
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2012 - 8:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the song ever played? (instead of merely written). If so, in front of an audience? If played, in a church? In a public square? In a private residence?
Whirligig (Whirligig)
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Posted on Friday, November 30, 2012 - 2:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the song ever played? (instead of merely written). yes to both, but a bit irrel If so, in front of an audience? If played, in a church? irrel, but most likely this In a public square? In a private residence?
Vene (Vene)
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Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2012 - 11:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Trying to clear the yope about having words:

Does only one of the two have words?
Does any of them have vocal parts? Semantically meaningful ones? Is language relevant?

Did he replace certain layers of the original piece? Or kept them all and added on top?
Shez (Shez)
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Posted on Monday, December 10, 2012 - 9:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

was it a question of the one putting words to the tune composed by the other?
Whirligig (Whirligig)
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Posted on Saturday, December 15, 2012 - 2:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Trying to clear the yope about having words:

Does only one of the two have words? this
Does any of them have vocal parts? one of them Semantically meaningful ones? yes Is language relevant? not directly

Did he replace certain layers of the original piece? Or kept them all and added on top? this

was it a question of the one putting words to the tune composed by the other? not exactly, but this is close to the truth
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 02, 2013 - 12:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the original tune without words? Did he add only lyrics? Or did he add: instruments? Repetitions? More verses?
Did it not turn out as he intended? Did he claim to have done something he had not? Or not to have done something he did? Relevant what use he intended the work for?
Shez (Shez)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 02, 2013 - 6:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

were there any words to the original?

were they changed? translated?
Whirligig (Whirligig)
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Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2013 - 8:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the original tune without words? yes Did he add only lyrics? no Or did he add: instruments? yes for svv of instruments, be wary of misleadingness Repetitions? More verses?
Did it not turn out as he intended? no Did he claim to have done something he had not? no Or not to have done something he did? no Relevant what use he intended the work for? yes

Shez's questions no longer apply
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Posted on Friday, January 04, 2013 - 11:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

SVV instruments: voices? Did he add another melody to be sung? Was it to be sung in churches? On a particular holiday?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Posted on Friday, January 04, 2013 - 12:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

SVV instruments: voices? Did he add another melody to be sung? Was it to be sung in churches? On a particular holiday?
Whirligig (Whirligig)
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Posted on Friday, January 04, 2013 - 8:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

SVV instruments: voices? yesish Did he add another melody to be sung? yes, FA Was it to be sung in churches? presumably On a particular holiday? no
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Posted on Saturday, January 05, 2013 - 9:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was there no melody at all in the original tune? Did he add a melody to be played by an instrument?
Whirligig (Whirligig)
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Posted on Saturday, January 05, 2013 - 11:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was there no melody at all in the original tune? yope Did he add a melody yes to be played by an instrument? for svv of "instrument"
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Posted on Friday, January 11, 2013 - 3:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

SVV instrument: one voice? Singing? Humming? Yelling? "Aaa"-ing? Similar? Whistling? Some other sound made using only the human body? Did he remove anything from the original?
Whirligig (Whirligig)
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Posted on Friday, January 11, 2013 - 10:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

SVV instrument: one voice? yes Singing? this Humming? Yelling? "Aaa"-ing? Similar? Whistling? Some other sound made using only the human body? Did he remove anything from the original? no

I think we're due for a

***** RECAP *****

A man living in the 18th or 19th century added a sung, religious melody onto an otherwise instrumental piece. The lyrics used were Catholic in nature, but the original composer was Lutheran. Although no harm ever came of it, I should think he would be less hasty to use a Lutheran's melody, mostly because of the less unified and tolerant mindset of that period (which is obvious enough in my opinion to $poil), but also because of something yet undiscovered.

What remains to be figured out is the exact piece in question. I would focus on the lyrics at this point for the most direct means of solution. The title may help you, but it's a stretch; it relates to a common scrund.
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Posted on Tuesday, January 22, 2013 - 10:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the lyrics about: god? Jesus? some saint? Some holiday? Some event in the bible? Some historical event? Life? Death? Heaven? Hell? Is it well known?
Whirligig (Whirligig)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 23, 2013 - 12:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the lyrics about: god? Jesus? this some saint? but more this Some holiday? and this to an extent Some event in the bible? and this Some historical event? Life? and this, but you're getting really vague Death? Heaven? Hell? Is it well known? please clarify what is meant by "it"
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 23, 2013 - 12:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it a Christmas song? Easter?
Whirligig (Whirligig)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 23, 2013 - 1:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it a Christmas song? yope Easter?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 23, 2013 - 11:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the lyrics about the virgin Mary? The birth of Jesus? the conception of Jesus? are the lyrics well known today?
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 23, 2013 - 4:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Some saint = Mary? Joseph? [LTPF list of the 12 disciples]?
Whirligig (Whirligig)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 23, 2013 - 10:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the lyrics about the virgin Mary? YES The birth of Jesus? this too the conception of Jesus? indirectly are the lyrics well known today? YES

Some saint = Mary? this Joseph? [LTPF list of the 12 disciples]?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Posted on Thursday, January 24, 2013 - 10:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Maria durch ein Dornwald ging"? I know the song with its Norwegian text.
If not this one: is it an advent song? Was it originally in German? English? If not, was it translated to English?
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Thursday, January 24, 2013 - 4:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ave Maria?
Whirligig (Whirligig)
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Posted on Thursday, January 24, 2013 - 10:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Maria durch ein Dornwald ging"? I know the song with its Norwegian text. no
If not this one: is it an advent song? no Was it originally in German? no English? no If not, was it translated to English? yes
Whirligig (Whirligig)
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Posted on Thursday, January 24, 2013 - 10:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ave Maria? YES! Name the composer(s), and you're through.
Danielvs (Danielvs)
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Posted on Saturday, February 02, 2013 - 12:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Charles Gounod?
Whirligig (Whirligig)
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Posted on Saturday, February 02, 2013 - 2:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Charles Gounod? And the other long puzzle is put to rest.


**********SPOILER**********

In the 1850s, French Catholic composer Charles Gounod created a setting of the Latin prayer Ave Maria on top of a piano piece by J.S. Bach. Of course, Ave Maria is the prayer most associated with Catholicism in specific—and given that Bach was Lutheran, a sect opposed to many of Catholicism's views (i.e. historical rivals), I found this funny, especially considering how intolerant the Catholic Church has historically been.

Thanks to all who participated, and congrats to Noel and Danielvs for the solve! Now, I believe there is a scrund to explain ...

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