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Nimue (Nimue)
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Post Number: 8677
Registered: 8-2001
Posted on Thursday, December 27, 2012 - 11:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You have to expect political campaigns to involve outrageous criticisms of candidates, but a recent one was off the scale in this respect, even thought the claim made about the candidate was perfectly true and did not deal with his private life. How come?
Solo1 (Solo1)
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Post Number: 384
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Posted on Friday, December 28, 2012 - 4:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

US political campaign? If so, presidential? state? ?local?
The candidate is male, yes? a HAM? (Just checking. I've heard of animals & even inanimate objects being nominated for office!) Would the puzzle work equally well if it was a HAF?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Friday, December 28, 2012 - 7:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Solo1 (Solo1)
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Post Number: 384
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Posted on Friday, December 28, 2012 - 4:11 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
US political campaign? yesIf so, presidential? no state? yes?local? no
The candidate is male, yes? yes but irrel a HAM? yes (Just checking. I've heard of animals & even inanimate objects being nominated for office!) My cat would make a better congressman than many who are in office!!Would the puzzle work equally well if it was a HAF? yes
Solo1 (Solo1)
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Post Number: 385
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Posted on Friday, December 28, 2012 - 10:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Let's establish how recent: 21st century? 20th? If the later, LTPF list of decades?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Post Number: 1998
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Posted on Friday, December 28, 2012 - 11:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was it outrageous because it was irrelevant to the campaign? Because the accusation was hypocritical? Because the candidate was accused of something that was not really bad? Or would be considered not bad by certain people? Because it was deliberately misleading?

Relevant who the claim was made by? Are the political parties or beliefs of the accuser or accused relevant?

Relevant how the claim was made (in a debate, on a leaflet etc)?

Did the claim refer to something the candidate had done? Something about him personally? Something about his policies? Religion relevant? Race?

Is it relevant that it was a state campaign? Is any aspect of the US state campaign or election process relevant?
Solo1 (Solo1)
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Post Number: 386
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Posted on Saturday, December 29, 2012 - 3:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oops, I meant "latter" not "later."
Nimue (Nimue)
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Post Number: 8680
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Posted on Saturday, December 29, 2012 - 5:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Enjay (Enjay)
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Post Number: 1998
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Posted on Friday, December 28, 2012 - 11:19 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Was it outrageous because it was irrelevant to the campaign? see next answer but one Because the accusation was hypocritical? possibly Because the candidate was accused of something that was not really bad? yes -- that's the main point Or would be considered not bad by certain people? yesBecause it was deliberately misleading? yes

Relevant who the claim was made by?No, except of course that someone on the other side made it Are the political parties or beliefs of the accuser or accused relevant? possibly

Relevant how the claim was made (in a debate, on a leaflet etc)? no

Did the claim refer to something the candidate had done? yesSomething about him personally? see perevious answer Something about his policies? yope Religion relevant? noRace? no

Is it relevant that it was a state campaign? no Is any aspect of the US state campaign or election process relevant? no
Solo1 (Solo1)
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Post Number: 386
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Posted on Saturday, December 29, 2012 - 3:35 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Oops, I meant "latter" not "later."
Enjay (Enjay)
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Post Number: 1999
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Posted on Saturday, December 29, 2012 - 9:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the thing he was accused of doing something that most/all people would be OK with? Or would some people think it is bad, but those people would never vote for the candidate anyway? Did the accusation try to frame something that a lot of politicians do as something immoral? Illegal? Dishonest? Bad in some other way?
Solo1 (Solo1)
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Post Number: 389
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Posted on Saturday, December 29, 2012 - 11:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ahem! Let's establish how recent: 21st century? 20th? If the latter, LTPF list of decades?
Can we call up the LTPF list of states? Or would that be giving too much away?
If we can't narrow it down that far, was it in the Southern US (former CSA)?
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 7:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the candidate hold elected office before? Or another public office? If so: Was the accusation related to something he did in the context of his office?

Is the exact wording of the accusation relevant? Is the accusation literally true?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Monday, December 31, 2012 - 6:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Saturday, December 29, 2012 - 9:49 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Is the thing he was accused of doing something that most probably -- I sure hope so!!/all no people would be OK with? Or would some people think it is bad yes, but those people would never vote for the candidate anyway? probably they wouldn't Did the accusation try to frame something that a lot of politicians do as something immoral?m no Illegal? noDishonest? no Bad in some other way? no
Solo1 (Solo1)
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Posted on Saturday, December 29, 2012 - 11:15 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Ahem! Let's establish how recent: 21st century? yes 20th? If the latter, LTPF list of decades?
Can we call up the LTPF list of states? Or would that be giving too much away? It's my state (Rhode Island, the smallest state in the US & generally rather liberal
If we can't narrow it down that far, was it in the Southern US (former CSA)?
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 7:28 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Did the candidate hold elected office before? irrelOr another public office? irrelIf so: Was the accusation related to something he did in the context of his office? no

Is the exact wording of the accusation relevant? no Is the accusation literally true? yes
Kdoc (Kdoc)
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Post Number: 1267
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Posted on Tuesday, January 01, 2013 - 7:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

so the candidate was criticised for doing something that most people would have no problem with him doing? and the critic said it because he/she thought it was a bad thing to do? or thought others would think it bad and therefore not vote for the candidate?
and now we have to work out what it was that the candidate did?

does it relate to something he did as a child? something he did once? something he does regularly?
does it relate to his political beliefs? his education? his hobbies? his pets? his job? his military service? his financial affairs? his employees?

did the critic really believe others would find it bad? did he misunderstand what this thing was?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Post Number: 8688
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Posted on Tuesday, January 01, 2013 - 7:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kdoc (Kdoc)
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Posted on Tuesday, January 01, 2013 - 7:20 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
so the candidate was criticised for doing something that most people would have no problem with him doing? yes and the critic said it because he/she thought it was a bad thing to do? yes or thought others would think it bad and therefore not vote for the candidate?some others
and now we have to work out what it was that the candidate did? yes

does it relate to something he did as a child? no something he did once? nosomething he does regularly? pretty regularly
does it relate to his political beliefs? yesishhis education? see next answer but two his hobbies? no his pets? no his job? his military service? nohis financial affairs? see previous answer but one his employees? no

did the critic really believe others would find it bad? some others did he misunderstand what this thing was? no
Kdoc (Kdoc)
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Post Number: 1269
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Posted on Tuesday, January 01, 2013 - 8:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

you didn't say yes or no to 'job'!
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Tuesday, January 01, 2013 - 8:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kdoc (Kdoc)
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Posted on Tuesday, January 01, 2013 - 8:04 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
you didn't say yes or no to 'job'!Sorry -- it's YES!!
Doriana (Doriana)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 02, 2013 - 6:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is this related to his job as a politician? A different job? If the former, did the candidate switch parties? If the latter, [LTPF list of professional fields] please.
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 02, 2013 - 7:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Doriana (Doriana)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 02, 2013 - 6:31 pm:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is this related to his job as a politician? no A different job? no If the former, did the candidate switch parties? n/aIf the latter, [LTPF list of professional fields] He was a lawyer. please.
Doriana (Doriana)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 02, 2013 - 8:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wait, so it's neither related to his job as a politician nor to his job as a lawyer?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 02, 2013 - 10:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he support a cause that some people would be against? Would someone have to hold certain prejudices in order to agree that what he did was bad?
Dlcygnet (Dlcygnet)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 02, 2013 - 11:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it related to the 2012 election? Sheldon Whitehouse relevant? David Cicilline?

Relevant issue: Stance on gun control? Political reform? Reducing crime as the Mayor? Immigration? Firefighters? Taxes? Budget? Redistricting? Abortion? Veterans Dog Training Therapy? 3 Strikes Law? Work as Attorney General? U.S. Attorney? Affordable Care Act? Only being the 2nd most liberal official? Death Penalty? Climategate? DOMA? Environment? Alternative Energy? Military? Some other really obvious political issue?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2013 - 6:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

BLOOPERRRRRALERTTTTT!!!Is this related to his job as a politician? no A different job? no The answer should be yesIf the former, did the candidate switch parties? n/aIf the latter, [LTPF list of professional fields] He was a lawyer. please.

Doriana (Doriana)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 02, 2013 - 8:17 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Wait, so it's neither related to his job as a politician nor to his job as a lawyer? It's related to his job as a lawyer -- please see above BLOOOPERRRRAKLERTTTT!!!
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 02, 2013 - 10:39 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Did he support a cause that some people would be against? yope Would someone have to hold certain prejudices in order to agree that what he did was bad? no
Dlcygnet (Dlcygnet)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 02, 2013 - 11:22 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Is it related to the 2012 election? yes Sheldon Whitehouse relevant? noDavid Cicilline? yes

Relevant issue: Stance on gun control? Political reform? Reducing crime as the Mayor? Immigration? Firefighters? Taxes? Budget? Redistricting? Abortion? Veterans Dog Training Therapy? 3 Strikes Law? Work as Attorney General? U.S. Attorney? Affordable Care Act? Only being the 2nd most liberal official? Death Penalty? Climategate? DOMA? Environment? Alternative Energy? Military? None of those!!Some other really obvious political issue? yope
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2013 - 11:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Any third party candidates relevant? Any incredibly fringe political issues (like what he would do if there was an alien invasion in Washington)? Same-sex marriage relevant (that's the only obvious issue that wasn't mentioned that I can think of)
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2013 - 11:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2013 - 11:01 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Any third party candidates relevant? noAny incredibly fringe political issues (like what he would do if there was an alien invasion in Washington)? noSame-sex marriage relevant (that's the only obvious issue that wasn't mentioned that I can think of) no
Dlcygnet (Dlcygnet)
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Posted on Friday, January 04, 2013 - 12:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Conservative criticism related to being a lawyer... But not an openly gay mayor? More proof that lawyers really are considered the scum of society...

Was it because he got his degree from Georgetown University? Was he accused of being a Washington insider because of the time he spent practicing law in D.C.?
Dlcygnet (Dlcygnet)
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Posted on Friday, January 04, 2013 - 12:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ooo... was it because he was a public defender? Was his honesty questioned? Was he accused of trying to keep bad guys out of prison?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Saturday, January 05, 2013 - 7:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

New member
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Post Number: 1757
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Posted on Friday, January 04, 2013 - 12:12 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Conservative criticism related to being a lawyer... But not an openly gay mayor? More proof that lawyers really are considered the scum of society...

Was it because he got his degree from Georgetown University? no Was he accused of being a Washington insider because of the time he spent practicing law in D.C.? no
Dlcygnet (Dlcygnet)
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Posted on Friday, January 04, 2013 - 12:16 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Ooo... was it because he was a public defender? or a criminal defense lawyer generallyWas his honesty questioned? no Was he accused of trying to keep bad guys out of prison? yesish

This is close enough for me to declare a

********* SPOILER ***************

When David Cicilline ran for Congress, he was attacked as a defender of rapists,. murderers, & pedophiles. Of course he was. He was supposed to be. He was a criminal defense lawyer!!
Dlcygnet (Dlcygnet)
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Posted on Saturday, January 05, 2013 - 11:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

In this country, we are presumed innocent until proven guilty. "Criminal Defense" implies that we already know the subject is guilty, thus the preference of the term Public Defender.
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Saturday, January 12, 2013 - 11:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Why suppose that the word 'criminal' in 'criminal defense' refers to the defendant? I take it as indicating that the defense is against the accusation of a crime. The term 'public defender' refers only to a lawyer who is paid by the government because his clients can't afford to pay, not to a lawyer that a client pays to defend him.

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