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Enjay (Enjay)
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Username: Enjay

Post Number: 2019
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, January 07, 2013 - 5:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I recently read a book involving a policeman, who stated that perpetrators of a certain crime can often be caught in an unexpected (to me, at least) way. I can't vouch for how true this is of real-life policing, but can you work out the situation?
Doriana (Doriana)
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Post Number: 3233
Registered: 12-2010
Posted on Monday, January 07, 2013 - 10:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

the certain crime... murder? manslaughter? assault? rape? robbery? kidnapping? theft? fraud? drug-related? traffic-related? a white-collar crime?

Does the unexpected way involve some kind of trap?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Post Number: 2031
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Posted on Monday, January 07, 2013 - 11:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

the certain crime... murder? Probably this manslaughter? Potentially this assault? Or this rape? robbery? kidnapping? theft? fraud? drug-related? traffic-related? a white-collar crime? No to rest

Does the unexpected way involve some kind of trap? No
Doriana (Doriana)
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Post Number: 3236
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Posted on Monday, January 07, 2013 - 11:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is DNA involved? Other traces that the criminal leaves behind? Witnesses relevant?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Post Number: 4971
Registered: 9-2009
Posted on Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - 6:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Social media? Bragging? Confessing to someone? Hospitals involved?
Deholmes (Deholmes)
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Post Number: 171
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Posted on Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - 7:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

suicide? the only crime you can be arrested for attempting but not for successfully committing.
Redwine (Redwine)
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Post Number: 1708
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Posted on Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - 9:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By this unusual way, are criminals caught in the act?
Does "catching" involve: working out the perpetrators' identity? gaining sufficient evidence to prove them guilty?
Does the policeman's statement include all cases of homicide? Are circumstances of the crime relevant?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Username: Enjay

Post Number: 2032
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - 11:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is DNA involved? Yes, in part Other traces that the criminal leaves behind? No Witnesses relevant? No


Social media? Bragging? Confessing to someone? Hospitals involved? No to all

suicide? the only crime you can be arrested for attempting but not for successfully committing. Not this...and can you not be arrested for attempted murder, attempted robbery etc?

By this unusual way, are criminals caught in the act? No
Does "catching" involve: working out the perpetrators' identity? This gaining sufficient evidence to prove them guilty? This too
Does the policeman's statement include all cases of homicide? No Are circumstances of the crime relevant? Yes, very
Redwine (Redwine)
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Post Number: 1713
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Posted on Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - 12:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do the criminals, to whom the policeman's statement applies, commit also other crimes in the same act? If yes, terroristic crimes? taking hostages? kidnapping?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Username: Enjay

Post Number: 2033
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - 1:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do the criminals, to whom the policeman's statement applies, commit also other crimes in the same act? If yes, terroristic crimes? taking hostages? kidnapping? Irrel, assume no
Doriana (Doriana)
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Post Number: 3244
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Posted on Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - 2:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The relevant circumstances: Where the crime was committed? when it was committed? the relationship between the criminal and the victim?

Are weapons relevant?

Does the way they're caught involve any recent technologies? Would the same way have been possible 20 years ago? 50? 100?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Post Number: 1719
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Posted on Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - 3:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are means of transportation relevant?
Can this way apply to other crimes than homicide?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Post Number: 2034
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Posted on Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - 3:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The relevant circumstances: Where the crime was committed? when it was committed? the relationship between the criminal and the victim? None of these

Are weapons relevant? Yes

Does the way they're caught involve any recent technologies? DNA testing makes it extra likely they'll be caught but this way existed to some extent before that Would the same way have been possible 20 years ago? 50? 100? Yes to all, but less so before the advent of DNA tests (not sure when that was)

Are means of transportation relevant? No
Can this way apply to other crimes than homicide? Yes
Redwine (Redwine)
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Post Number: 1723
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Posted on Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - 3:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the relevant DNA samples those of perpetrators? Those of victims? Are the samples taken from the weapons?
Is catching the criminal this way possible if he shots at the victim from distance? Stabs the victim? Strangles the victim with a randomly found piece of string? Poisons the victim's food?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Username: Enjay

Post Number: 2036
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Posted on Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - 3:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the relevant DNA samples those of perpetrators? This Those of victims? No Are the samples taken from the weapons? No
Is catching the criminal this way possible if he shots at the victim from distance? Stabs the victim? Yes, no to rest Strangles the victim with a randomly found piece of string? Poisons the victim's food?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Post Number: 4984
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Posted on Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - 4:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does it work with fingerprints also? Leaving the weapon behind relevant?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Post Number: 2038
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Posted on Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - 4:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does it work with fingerprints also? No Leaving the weapon behind relevant? No, this would work whether or not the weapon was left
Doriana (Doriana)
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Posted on Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - 6:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is/Are the victim's wound/s relevant?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Username: Enjay

Post Number: 2040
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Posted on Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - 7:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is/Are the victim's wound/s relevant? No
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Post Number: 4989
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Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2013 - 8:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are they caught only because they leave DNA behind at the crime scene? Or do they leave DNA somewhere else relevant? Existing DNA registers relevant? Relevant what form the DNA is in? If so: blood? Hair? Skin? Spit? Semen? Urine or feces? Injuries to the killer relevant? Is the DNA on the weapon, and transferred to the victim when the weapon is used?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Post Number: 2043
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Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2013 - 10:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are they caught only because they leave DNA behind at the crime scene? This is half of it, see below Or do they leave DNA somewhere else relevant? No Existing DNA registers relevant? They would help to catch the criminal I suppose Relevant what form the DNA is in? Yes If so: blood? This Hair? Skin? Spit? Semen? Urine or feces? Injuries to the killer relevant? Yes, and this is the second half Is the DNA on the weapon, and transferred to the victim when the weapon is used? Yope
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2013 - 12:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the blood from: the victim hurting the killer? The killer hurting himself? Do killers surprisingly often hurt themselves?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Username: Enjay

Post Number: 2046
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Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2013 - 12:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the blood from: the victim hurting the killer? No The killer hurting himself? Yes Do killers surprisingly often hurt themselves? Yes - how?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2013 - 12:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

With their own weapon? Before the murder? during? After? When running away? When hiding? When chasing the victim? When being chased by someone?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2013 - 12:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

With their own weapon? Yes Before the murder? during? This, no to rest After? When running away? When hiding? When chasing the victim? When being chased by someone?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Post Number: 5000
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Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2013 - 1:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do they hurt a certain body part of themselves? Hold the knife incorrectly? Accidentally stab the hand they're holding the victim with? Holding the victim relevant at all? Get hurt on the knife while it's stuck in the victim? Drop the knife on themselves? On their feet? Relevant if they're angry? Relevant if the victim is restrained? If so, relevant how the victim is restrained? Is any movement of the victim relevant?
Shez (Shez)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2013 - 3:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

do they hurt themselves on the weapon as they pull it out - say for multiple stabbings?

or do they stab over-enthusiastically and damage themselves that way?
Deholmes (Deholmes)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2013 - 5:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have a 44 mag that if not held right can draw blood from around my thumb is this in the general area of the DNA Clue?
Was blood left accidently on the weapon? something else? And leave the cloth with DNA?
Was the cloth a clue?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Post Number: 2052
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Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2013 - 7:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do they hurt a certain body part of themselves? Yes Hold the knife incorrectly? Yesish Accidentally stab the hand they're holding the victim with? No Holding the victim relevant at all? No Get hurt on the knife while it's stuck in the victim? No Drop the knife on themselves? No On their feet? No
Relevant if they're angry? Relevant if the victim is restrained? If so, relevant how the victim is restrained? Is any movement of the victim relevant? Irrel to all

do they hurt themselves on the weapon as they pull it out - say for multiple stabbings? No

or do they stab over-enthusiastically and damage themselves that way? Yes

I have a 44 mag that if not held right can draw blood from around my thumb is this in the general area of the DNA Clue? The DNA clue is to do with accidentally drawing the criminal's own blood by the weapon, but it is specific to a knife attack
Was blood left accidently on the weapon? something else? This And leave the cloth with DNA?
Was the cloth a clue? No cloth is relevant
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Posted on Thursday, January 10, 2013 - 8:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hurting themselves in the: head? Arm? Hand? Torso? Leg? Foot? Butt? Relevant where their blood ends up?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Thursday, January 10, 2013 - 11:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hurting themselves in the: head? Arm? Hand? This Torso? Leg? Foot? Butt? Relevant where their blood ends up? Only in that it is left behind for the police to find
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Posted on Thursday, January 10, 2013 - 11:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Stabbing hand? Other hand? Slipping with the hand relevant? Slipping in blood? Using knives not fit for the purpose? Knives with no hand guard?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Post Number: 2058
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Posted on Thursday, January 10, 2013 - 11:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Stabbing hand? Yes Other hand? Slipping with the hand relevant? Yes Slipping in blood? no Using knives not fit for the purpose? Yesish, see next Knives with no hand guard? YES

I think most of the pieces are there, can you put it together?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Posted on Thursday, January 10, 2013 - 12:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Knife murderers are an often inexperienced lot, and having no concept of what it takes to successfully stab a person, they often use inappropriate, unsafe knives as well as disproportionate force and poor technique, leaving them at a high risk of slipping with their hands and cutting themselves on their own weapon.
The blood surprisingly often left behind from these accidents leads police to the culprit, who is apprehended, tried and jailed, thus taking him or her out of commission and ensuring the continued ineptness of the knife-murdering segment of the population.
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Thursday, January 10, 2013 - 2:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Knife murderers are an often inexperienced lot, and having no concept of what it takes to successfully stab a person, they often use inappropriate, unsafe knives as well as disproportionate force and poor technique, leaving them at a high risk of slipping with their hands and cutting themselves on their own weapon.
The blood surprisingly often left behind from these accidents leads police to the culprit, who is apprehended, tried and jailed, thus taking him or her out of commission and ensuring the continued ineptness of the knife-murdering segment of the population.

All correct, and that's the bulk of the sp01ler. The novel included one other detail, by which the criminal's hurting himself got him caught despite the fact that he was not on DNA records so testing the blood he left behind was not immediately helpful. You can try to get that but otherwise I'll end this soon.
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Thursday, January 10, 2013 - 2:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the police check the hospitals for that kind of injuries?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Posted on Thursday, January 10, 2013 - 2:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he go to the hospital? Get a bandage? Throw the bandage in his own trash, where it was picked up by police? Or something along those lines?
I recall a story about a suspected murderer, who defied all attempts of collecting a DNA sample from him. "I know what you're trying to do" he said at one occasion, and spat contemptuously on the ground - the spit sample was what they needed in order to try and convict him for the murder.
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Thursday, January 10, 2013 - 4:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the police check the hospitals for that kind of injuries? Not in the story, but that's a good thought - it was even simpler than that

Did he go to the hospital? Get a bandage? Throw the bandage in his own trash, where it was picked up by police? Or something along those lines? No to all
I recall a story about a suspected murderer, who defied all attempts of collecting a DNA sample from him. "I know what you're trying to do" he said at one occasion, and spat contemptuously on the ground - the spit sample was what they needed in order to try and convict him for the murder. Clever!
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Post Number: 5040
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Posted on Thursday, January 10, 2013 - 4:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they go door to door? Did they see someone with a bandaged hand? An injured hand? Did he bleed somewhere relevant? Was the comparison DNA from blood he lost? From blood drawn from him? From something else? A sample recovered from him: secretly? by force? willingly?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Username: Enjay

Post Number: 2064
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Posted on Thursday, January 10, 2013 - 5:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they go door to door? Did they see someone with a bandaged hand? This... An injured hand? And this Did he bleed somewhere relevant? Was the comparison DNA from blood he lost? From blood drawn from him? From something else? A sample recovered from him: secretly? by force? willingly?

****SPOILER****
A policeman investigating a knife crime in a novel I read claimed that as stabbing someone takes much more force than most people realise, it is common for the attacker's hand to slip down onto the blade of the knife as it goes in. This can mean that the attacker's blood is left behind and can be analysed for DNA. In the novel, they couldn't do this but when the policeman noticed that one of the victim's associates had a bandaged hand, that was enough to put the police on the right track.

Thanks to all who played, especially Galfisk for chasing it through to the end!

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