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Nimue (Nimue)
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Post Number: 8858
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Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2013 - 9:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I used to have a scrund about lawyers who work for the poor, such as public defenders (American lawyers who defend people accused of crimes who can't afford to pay a lawyer) & legal aid lawyers (American lawyers who represent poor, non-paying clients in non-criminal cases). Other people have also had this scrund. What is it?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2013 - 9:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it to do with what kind of people do it? With why they do it? With what benefit they receive from it? With who they represent? With what choice they have in the matter? With their qualifications? With other work that they do?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2013 - 9:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2013 - 9:32 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Is it to do with what kind of people do it? yope With why they do it? noishWith what benefit they receive from it? no With who they represent? noWith what choice they have in the matter? noWith their qualifications? no With other work that they do? no
Liquizt (Liquizt)
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Posted on Saturday, February 09, 2013 - 4:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does the scrund in some way concern how they afford to represent clients that can't pay them? directly concern (i.e. is specifically about)? indirectly?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Saturday, February 09, 2013 - 8:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did you imagine that they were all sponsored by an Irish rock band?
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2013 - 12:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

woubit is much more clever than kaylee, who does not understand the reference but is sure it is a brilliant one nonetheless. kaylee is always willing to be educated further =)
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2013 - 12:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Legal work carried out for no fee or a reduced fee as a public service is known as "pro bono" work (from the Latin "pro bono publico" - "for the public good"). Bono was, of course, the lead singer of the Irish rock band U2.
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2013 - 3:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does it have to do with how public defenders are selected? That in most areas, public defenders are hired by the local authorities? That in New Jersey (at least at some point, I don't know if this is still the case) that wasn't the case and that all lawyers in the state had to work a certain number of hours pro bono in one of the two capacities you mentioned above? My mom used to be a lawyer in New Jersey and she represented a transvestite who they were trying to put in solitary because they couldn't decide whether to send her to men's or women's prison. She had already undergone the man-to woman change on her top, but not her bottom half, so either one would be unsafe for her. She then filed a complaint because when you're in solitary you don't get certain rights (like library and yard) that the rest of the prison population gets, and she wasn't happy about being deprived of them because she was a transvestite. (Normally that only happens as punishment). Not to mention, getting solitary for shoplifting women's clothes is cruel and unusual punishment. Eventually, my mom talked to the warden, and the transvestite dropped the cruel and unusual punishment charges in exchange for the warden giving her the same privileges as everyone else in prison.
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2013 - 4:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

oh I see, thank you woubit ^_^ kaylee learns much when woubit is around, because woubit is a very clever woubit indeed =)
Solo1 (Solo1)
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Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2013 - 7:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

But if only "her" top half was changed, then "she" was still a "he," wasn't shim?

Maybe I should have been a lawyer. I can argue on both sides of any given question, sometimes simultaneously!

And Woubit, thanks for explaining. I didn't quite get it either. Need another coffee transfusion this morning!
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2013 - 11:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Liquizt (Liquizt)
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Does the scrund in some way concern how they afford to represent clients that can't pay them? nodirectly concern (i.e. is specifically about)? indirectly?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Did you imagine that they were all sponsored by an Irish rock band?noooooooo
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2013 - 12:51 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
woubit is much more clever than kaylee, who does not understand the reference but is sure it is a brilliant one nonetheless. kaylee is always willing to be educated further =)
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2013 - 12:29 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Legal work carried out for no fee or a reduced fee as a public service is known as "pro bono" work (from the Latin "pro bono publico" - "for the public good"). Bono was, of course, the lead singer of the Irish rock band U2.
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Does it have to do with how public defenders are selected? noThat in most areas, public defenders are hired by the local authorities? see next answerThat in New Jersey (at least at some point, I don't know if this is still the case) that wasn't the case and that all lawyers in the state had to work a certain number of hours pro bono in one of the two capacities you mentioned above?The scrund applies only to lawyers who choose a career representing clients who can't afford to pay My mom used to be a lawyer in New Jersey and she represented a transvestite who they were trying to put in solitary because they couldn't decide whether to send her to men's or women's prison. She had already undergone the man-to woman change on her top, but not her bottom half, so either one would be unsafe for her. She then filed a complaint because when you're in solitary you don't get certain rights (like library and yard) that the rest of the prison population gets, and she wasn't happy about being deprived of them because she was a transvestite. (Normally that only happens as punishment). Not to mention, getting solitary for shoplifting women's clothes is cruel and unusual punishment. Eventually, my mom talked to the warden, and the transvestite dropped the cruel and unusual punishment charges in exchange for the warden giving her the same privileges as everyone else in prison.
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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oh I see, thank you woubit ^_^ kaylee learns much when woubit is around, because woubit is a very clever woubit indeed =)
Solo1 (Solo1)
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Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2013 - 7:57 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
But if only "her" top half was changed, then "she" was still a "he," wasn't shim?

Maybe I should have been a lawyer. I can argue on both sides of any given question, sometimes simultaneously!

And Woubit, thanks for explaining. I didn't quite get it either. Need another coffee transfusion this morning!
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2013 - 11:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does it concern how good they are at their job? How motivated they are? How hard they try? Did you think that such lawyers would have a lower success rate than they actually do? A higher success rate? That only bad lawyers would go into this career path, because their clients won't be picky? That such lawyers would have a particular political leaning? A particular belief? Some other linking characteristic?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2013 - 11:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Enjay (Enjay)
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Does it concern how good they are at their job? noishHow motivated they are? no How hard they try? no Did you think that such lawyers would have a lower success rate than they actually do? noA higher success rate? no That only bad lawyers would go into this career path, because their clients won't be picky? noThat such lawyers would have a particular political leaning? yesish A particular belief? see previous answerSome other linking characteristic? yes
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2013 - 11:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did you think those lawyers would be liberal? That they would be more concerned with the plight of the poor? That they would give to charity? Would do other good works? would help the poor in other ways? That they would be doing it to help people rather than for the money?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Monday, February 11, 2013 - 4:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Enjay (Enjay)
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Did you think those lawyers would be liberal? Yes, but the book that made me realize that I had a scrund says they are, so that isn't the scrund.That they would be more concerned with the plight of the poor? dittoThat they would give to charity? no Would do other good works?yesish would help the poor in other ways? yopeThat they would be doing it to help people rather than for the money? irrel
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Monday, February 11, 2013 - 6:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did you think they would have a particular view on the roots of poverty? On what to do about poverty? On welfare? Health care? Unemployment?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Enjay (Enjay)
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Did you think they would have a particular view on the roots of poverty? On what to do about poverty? On welfare? Health care? Unemployment? no to all
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Thursday, February 14, 2013 - 10:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

HINT: What do you think it would be like to go to such a lawyer?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Friday, February 15, 2013 - 9:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it to do with how they act to their clients? How much time they give them? Whether they make them feel valued? Whether they treat them worse than they would paying clients?

Are their offices relevant?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Enjay (Enjay)
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Is it to do with how they act to their clients? yesHow much time they give them? noWhether they make them feel valued? noish or yope Whether they treat them worse than they would paying clients?yope or yesish

Are their offices relevant? no
Shez (Shez)
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whether they are nice to their clients? polite? caring? friendly?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Shez (Shez)
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whether they are nice to their clients? yopepolite? nocaring?yope friendly? no
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Saturday, February 16, 2013 - 10:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the scrund believing that such lawyers would do a certain thing? Not do a certain thing? If so, to their clients? Is it to do with the way their clients feel about them?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Enjay (Enjay)
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Is the scrund believing that such lawyers would do a certain thing? yesNot do a certain thing? yesIf so, to their clients? yesIs it to do with the way their clients feel about them? maybe indirectly
Beachbum (Beachbum)
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Does it have anything to do with how a public defender is assigned to a particular client?
Whether they can reject clients?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2013 - 9:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Beachbum (Beachbum)
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Does it have anything to do with how a public defender is assigned to a particular client? no
Whether they can reject clients? no
Beachbum (Beachbum)
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Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2013 - 9:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it about whether they visit the defendants in jail?
Whether they post the defendant's bail?
Something about how they conduct themselves during a trial?
Ciaobella (Ciaobella)
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How the public defender uses his or her time relevant? For instance, spending less time on poorer clients or vice versa?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Beachbum (Beachbum)
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Is it about whether they visit the defendants in jail? no
Whether they post the defendant's bail? no
Something about how they conduct themselves during a trial? no
Ciaobella (Ciaobella)
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How the public defender uses his or her time relevant? no For instance, spending less time on poorer clients or vice versa? no
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Friday, March 08, 2013 - 8:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

\[HINT: Think about lawyers' general way of treating their clients.}
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Saturday, March 09, 2013 - 7:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Treating them well? Badly? Seeing them as a source of money? Treating them caringly? At an emotional distance? Not caring whether they are guilty or innocent?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Enjay (Enjay)
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Treating them well? yope Badly? yope -- this depends on one's values Seeing them as a source of money? no Treating them caringly? yope At an emotional distance? no Not caring whether they are guilty or innocent? no
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Posted on Friday, March 15, 2013 - 8:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the work they do for the client relevant? Their feelings towards the client? Their attitude towards the client? Their attitude towards their work in general? Anything outside the lawyer-client relations relevant?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Is the work they do for the client relevant? yes Their feelings towards the client? see next answer Their attitude towards the client? yes Their attitude towards their work in general? noAnything outside the lawyer-client relations relevant? yope
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Friday, March 15, 2013 - 8:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the scrund make these lawyers out to be generally better/nicer/more moral than they actually are? Less so?

Would the scrund come into play at any of the following points:
When a poor person applies for legal help?
When the poor client is assigned to the lawyer (or do they choose the lawyer?)
When the lawyer is working with the client on the case?
After the case is over and the lawyer moves on to the next client?

Relevant how many clients the lawyer has on the go at one time? Relevant how many cases they win? Relevant how the poor person feels about the experience of being represented by the lawyer? Relevant if they have repeat clients? Relevant if the lawyer does legal aid work all their career?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Enjay (Enjay)
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Did the scrund make these lawyers out to be generally better/nicer/more moral than they actually are? yesLess so? no

Would the scrund come into play at any of the following points:
When a poor person applies for legal help? possibly
When the poor client is assigned to the lawyer (or do they choose the lawyer?) less likely
When the lawyer is working with the client on the case? yes
After the case is over and the lawyer moves on to the next client?b{ no}

Relevant how many clients the lawyer has on the go at one time? possibly Relevant how many cases they win? no Relevant how the poor person feels about the experience of being represented by the lawyer? possiblyRelevant if they have repeat clients? noRelevant if the lawyer does legal aid work all their career? no
Enjay (Enjay)
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Relevant how the lawyer feels about doing this kind of work?

Is it to do with how much time the lawyer spends with the client? With whether they see them at all? Whether they talk to them about their case? How much effort they put in? How their practice is regulated or governed by a higher body?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Enjay (Enjay)
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Relevant how the lawyer feels about doing this kind of work? yesish

Is it to do with how much time the lawyer spends with the client? no With whether they see them at all? yopeWhether they talk to them about their case? yes How much effort they put in? noHow their practice is regulated or governed by a higher body? no
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Username: Enjay

Post Number: 2496
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Friday, March 15, 2013 - 9:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do the lawyers in fact talk to the clients about the case? Did you think they did? Do the clients have input in what the lawyer does on their behalf? Relevant how the lawyers get the details of the case? If so, do they work off a file? Do they get the details from the client?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Username: Nimue

Post Number: 8951
Registered: 8-2001
Posted on Saturday, March 16, 2013 - 5:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do the lawyers in fact talk to the clients about the case?usuallyDid you think they did? yes Do the clients have input in what the lawyer does on their behalf? noish--GOOOOOD QUESTION!!!! Relevant how the lawyers get the details of the case? {possiblyIf so, do they work off a file? huh?Do they get the details from the client? possibly
Enjay (Enjay)
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Username: Enjay

Post Number: 2499
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Saturday, March 16, 2013 - 9:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By 'do they work off a file', I meant do they get given a file with the information on the case, and use that to fight the case rather than working closely with the client?

Was your scrund about how much input the clients have on how the case is fought? About how often the lawyer and the client meet? About whether the client is kept updated on how the case is going?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Username: Nimue

Post Number: 8952
Registered: 8-2001
Posted on Saturday, March 16, 2013 - 10:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Enjay (Enjay)
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Username: Enjay

Post Number: 2499
Registered: 4-2007

Posted on Saturday, March 16, 2013 - 9:08 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
By 'do they work off a file', I meant do they get given a file with the information on the case, and use that to fight the case rather than working closely with the client?possibly

Was your scrund about how much input the clients have on how the case is fought? yersAbout how often the lawyer and the client meet? this may be relevant About whether the client is kept updated on how the case is going? ditto

********** SPOILER ***********
I used to take it for granted that public interest lawyers who worked for the poor were leftist egalitarian types & treated their clients accordingly. But, according to a sociological study I read recently, these lawyers are often paternalistic toward their clients & consider them uneducated & unsophisticated. Please see my new puzzle!!

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