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Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Friday, July 19, 2013 - 7:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I learned just last week that I've always had a scrund about the American criminal justice system. I bet most of you have it, too. What is it?
Doriana (Doriana)
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Posted on Saturday, July 20, 2013 - 12:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Anything to do with the Trayvon Martin case?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Saturday, July 20, 2013 - 3:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Doriana (Doriana)
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Posted on Saturday, July 20, 2013 - 12:13 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Anything to do with the Trayvon Martin case? no
Shez (Shez)
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Posted on Saturday, July 20, 2013 - 9:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

would Europeans probably have this scrund too?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Saturday, July 20, 2013 - 10:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Shez (Shez)
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Posted on Saturday, July 20, 2013 - 9:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
would Europeans probably have this scrund too? probably
Kdoc (Kdoc)
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Posted on Sunday, July 28, 2013 - 11:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This needs to be narrowed down a lot!
does the scrund relate to the police? any action of the police? arresting people? detecting crime? reading people their rights? investigating crime in any way? statements given to the police?

does it relate in any way to witnesses of crime?

does it relate to courtroom activities? lawyers? judges?

does it relate to what a person's rights are? what their responsibilities are? to the length of time things take?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Sunday, July 28, 2013 - 7:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kdoc (Kdoc)
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Posted on Sunday, July 28, 2013 - 11:47 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
This needs to be narrowed down a lot! And how!!
does the scrund relate to the police? noany action of the police? noarresting people? no detecting crime? no reading people their rights? noinvestigating crime in any way? nostatements given to the police? no

does it relate in any way to witnesses of crime? no or maybe noish

does it relate to courtroom activities? yeslawyers? yesishjudges? yes

does it relate to what a person's rights are? yesishwhat their responsibilities are? yesto the length of time things take? no
Kdoc (Kdoc)
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Posted on Sunday, July 28, 2013 - 8:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

does it relate to the questions asked in a court? the answers given? to who speaks? to whether questions have to be answered? to the oath?

does it relate to court etiquette? court rules? where people sit? who speaks when?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Sunday, July 28, 2013 - 8:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kdoc (Kdoc)
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Posted on Sunday, July 28, 2013 - 8:15 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
does it relate to the questions asked in a court? noish the answers given? yope to who speaks? noto whether questions have to be answered? noto the oath? no

does it relate to court etiquette? no court rules? yesish where people sit? nowho speaks when? no
Kdoc (Kdoc)
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Posted on Sunday, July 28, 2013 - 9:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

do the relevant rules relate to the type of questions that can be asked? who can be addressed?

do the rules relate to the witness? to the judge? to the jury? to the defence layer? to the prosecution lawyer? to the audience? dod the rules relate to whether the proceedings are public? are video links relvant?

gender of any of the participants relevant? their nationality? their religion? their physical appearance?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Sunday, July 28, 2013 - 9:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kdoc (Kdoc)
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do the relevant rules relate to the type of questions that can be asked? nowho can be addressed? no

do the rules relate to the witness? no to the judge? yope to the jury? yes to the defence layer? yope to the prosecution lawyer? yope to the audience? nodod the rules relate to whether the proceedings are public? noare video links relvant? no

gender of any of the participants relevant? notheir nationality? Well, you probably have to be an American citizen to serve on an American jurytheir religion? no or maybe noish their physical appearance?{no}
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Wednesday, July 31, 2013 - 5:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

HINT: Think of a common slogan associated with criminal justice in America.
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Wednesday, July 31, 2013 - 7:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Innocent until proven guilty"?
"No double jeopardy"?
"I'll take the/plead the Fifth?"
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Wednesday, July 31, 2013 - 8:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Wednesday, July 31, 2013 - 7:33 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
"Innocent until proven guilty"? no, but you're ORT
"No double jeopardy"? no
"I'll take the/plead the Fifth?" no
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Friday, August 02, 2013 - 9:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

HINT: The relevant slogan states a general principle rather than involving any official instructions that would actually be given to anyone involved in a criminal trial.
Hardcore (Hardcore)
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Posted on Tuesday, August 06, 2013 - 4:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"You have the right to remain silent when questioned"?

"Anything you say or do may be used against you in a court of law"?

"You have the right to consult an attorney before speaking to the police and to have an attorney present during questioning now or in the future"?

"If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you before any questioning, if you wish"?

"If you decide to answer any questions now, without an attorney present, you will still have the right to stop answering at any time until you talk to an attorney"?

"Knowing and understanding your rights as I have explained them to you, are you willing to answer my questions without an attorney present"?

"Sir, I'm going to have to tell you to lower the banana"?

"Look, no one needs to get hurt here. So just hand me the LOLcat and we can talk this over. The LOLcat did nothing to you. You can but the banana on me and we can talk this over. This has nothing to do with the LOLcat, OK? So just hand me the LOLcat"?

"Put your hands behind your back"?

"You are under arrest"?
Solo1 (Solo1)
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Posted on Tuesday, August 06, 2013 - 5:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It occurs to me that Hardcore has spent a lot of his young life (like Nimue) watching CSI. Not that I'm casting aspersions. (What can you do with an aspersion except cast it?) I could easily become addicted, which is why, like Nimue with her eating binges, I ration myself, watching only about once a month.
So, is CSI relevant?
Kalira (Kalira)
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Posted on Tuesday, August 06, 2013 - 6:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

IIRC, Nimue is more into Law & Order than CSI (though obviously I could easily be wrong there). In which case, L&O relevant?

Any of the following relevant:
trial by a jury of peers?
due process?
right to a speedy trial?
statutes of limitations (already know your feelings on those)?
12 angry men?
sequestration?
hung juries?
mistrials?
swearing in?
juries being directed to disregard something?
sentencing?
a judge laying aside the jury's findings?

Would whatever we're trying to find apply in both criminal and civil court?
Hardcore (Hardcore)
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Posted on Wednesday, August 07, 2013 - 5:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Actually I just watch a lot of Law and Order. Criminal Intent and Special Victims Unit.
Solo1 (Solo1)
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Posted on Wednesday, August 07, 2013 - 7:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sorry - I watch these shows so seldom that I tend to confuse/conflate them. Any other TV show relevant?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Wednesday, August 07, 2013 - 9:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

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Posted on Tuesday, August 06, 2013 - 4:50 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
"You have the right to remain silent when questioned"? no

"Anything you say or do may be used against you in a court of law"? no

"You have the right to consult an attorney before speaking to the police and to have an attorney present during questioning now or in the future"? no

"If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you before any questioning, if you wish"? no

"If you decide to answer any questions now, without an attorney present, you will still have the right to stop answering at any time until you talk to an attorney"? no

"Knowing and understanding your rights as I have explained them to you, are you willing to answer my questions without an attorney present"? no

"Sir, I'm going to have to tell you to lower the banana"? nooooooo

"Look, no one needs to get hurt here. So just hand me the LOLcat and we can talk this over. The LOLcat did nothing to you. You can but the banana on me and we can talk this over. This has nothing to do with the LOLcat, OK? So just hand me the LOLcat"? no

"Put your hands behind your back"? no

"You are under arrest"? no
Solo1 (Solo1)
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Posted on Tuesday, August 06, 2013 - 5:11 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
It occurs to me that Hardcore has spent a lot of his young life (like Nimue) watching CSI. Not that I'm casting aspersions. (What can you do with an aspersion except cast it?\b Good point!!~}) I could easily become addicted, which is why, like Nimue with her eating binges, I ration myself, watching only about once a month.Why? Unlike eating binges, TV won't shorten your life
So, is CSI relevant? No TV crime show is specifically relevant
Kalira (Kalira)
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Posted on Tuesday, August 06, 2013 - 6:01 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
IIRC, Nimue is more into Law & Order than CSI (though obviously I could easily be wrong there). In which case, L&O relevant?No TV crime show is specifically relevant. By the way, I watched CSI jusat a few times & found it too concerned with forensics rather than motive.

Any of the following relevant:
trial by a jury of peers? no
due process? yope
right to a speedy trial? no
statutes of limitations (already know your feelings on those)? no
12 angry men? no
sequestration? noish
hung juries? noish
mistrials? noish
swearing in? no
juries being directed to disregard something? noish
sentencing? no
a judge laying aside the jury's findings? possibly

Would whatever we're trying to find apply in both criminal and civil court? no, just criminal, as the puzzle statement indicates
Hardcore (Hardcore)
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Posted on Wednesday, August 07, 2013 - 5:24 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Actually I just watch a lot of Law and Order. Criminal Intent and Special Victims Unit.
Solo1 (Solo1)
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Sorry - I watch these shows so seldom that I tend to confuse/conflate them. Any other TV show relevant? No particular TV show is relevant. Most Americans have heard the relevant slogan even if they never watch TV crime shows.
Bodo (Bodo)
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Posted on Thursday, August 08, 2013 - 7:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Felicia Nimue.

Is the swearing in process relevant (to the puzzle)?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Thursday, August 08, 2013 - 9:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bodo (Bodo)
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Posted on Thursday, August 08, 2013 - 7:39 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Hi Felicia Nimue. Hi, Bodo. Long time no see!! Welcome back!!

Is the swearing in process relevant (to the puzzle)? no
Bodo (Bodo)
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Posted on Friday, August 09, 2013 - 8:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks - nice to be back.

Juries are relevant, judges and lawyers yopishly, possible overturning-by-judge, is the number of jurors relevant? The percentage of votes required for a verdict of guilty? Sentencing vs. verdict relevant?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Friday, August 09, 2013 - 9:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bodo (Bodo)
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Posted on Friday, August 09, 2013 - 8:57 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Thanks - nice to be back.

Juries are relevant, judges and lawyers yopishly, possible overturning-by-judge, is the number of jurors relevant? no The percentage of votes required for a verdict of guilty? yope Sentencing vs. verdict relevant? no
Bodo (Bodo)
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Posted on Saturday, August 10, 2013 - 1:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jury nullification relevant?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Bodo (Bodo)
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Jury nullification relevant? no
Bodo (Bodo)
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Posted on Tuesday, August 13, 2013 - 7:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Unanimity requirement relevant? That it is not required in some states?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Bodo (Bodo)
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Unanimity requirement relevant?noish or yope That it is not required in some states? no
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Saturday, August 17, 2013 - 8:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

HINT: The slogan has to do with innocence & guilt.
Biograd (Biograd)
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Posted on Sunday, August 18, 2013 - 1:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That a person is presumed innocent until found guilty? Did you think that in certain situations where no verdict was determined, the defendant would be considered innocent by default, whereas in fact it only means that a new trial would be held?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Biograd (Biograd)
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That a person is presumed innocent until found guilty? NO, but you're very ORTDid you think that in certain situations where no verdict was determined, the defendant would be considered innocent by default, whereas in fact it only means that a new trial would be held? no
Kalira (Kalira)
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Posted on Wednesday, August 28, 2013 - 2:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just to make sure it's not the specific wording there... "innocent until proven guilty"? Although the question is really not that you're proven guilty so much as that a theoretically reasonable group of your peers believes that you committed the crime? Is burden of proof relevant?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Kalira (Kalira)
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Posted on Wednesday, August 28, 2013 - 2:28 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Just to make sure it's not the specific wording there... "innocent until proven guilty"? HINT: It's a slogan giving a RATIONALE for the principle "innocent until proven guilty." the question is really not that you're proven guilty so much as that a theoretically reasonable group of your peers believes that you committed the crime? see previous answerIs burden of proof relevant? see previous answer but one
Kalira (Kalira)
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Posted on Wednesday, August 28, 2013 - 6:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Better to let the guilty go free than to punish the innocent? (or whichever variant of that you prefer)
Nimue (Nimue)
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Kalira (Kalira)
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Posted on Wednesday, August 28, 2013 - 6:44 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Better to let the guilty go free than to punish the innocent? (or whichever variant of that you prefer) Yes!! The scrund is about the slogan, "It's better to let ten guilty men go free than to punish one innocent one." Now all you have to don is identify the scrund.
Kalira (Kalira)
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Posted on Wednesday, August 28, 2013 - 8:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it the question of who it's better for?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Kalira (Kalira)
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Posted on Wednesday, August 28, 2013 - 8:31 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Is it the question of who it's better for? yes
Kalira (Kalira)
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Posted on Wednesday, August 28, 2013 - 9:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Scrund: that it's better for society? for the innocent person? for the guilty?

Is the opposite belief relevant here? Better to let ten innocent people suffer than to let one guilty person go free?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Kalira (Kalira)
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Posted on Wednesday, August 28, 2013 - 9:36 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Scrund: that it's better for society?no for the innocent person? no for the guilty? yesish or yope

Is the opposite belief relevant here?
yope|Better to let ten innocent people suffer than to let one guilty person go free? yope
Hamilton (Hamilton)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2013 - 4:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Scrund: that it's better for the legal system? Jurors? Judges? Attorneys? The prison system?

Is the scrund that the saying is universally held, while many legal scholars don't agree with it?

Would this scrund work just as well with Ben Franklin's version of the quote, where the ratio is 1 to 100, not 1 to 10?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Username: Nimue

Post Number: 9525
Registered: 8-2001
Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2013 - 8:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hamilton (Hamilton)
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Username: Hamilton

Post Number: 23
Registered: 8-2013

Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2013 - 4:32 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Scrund: that it's better for the legal system? Jurors? Judges? Attorneys? The prison system?see ****SPOILER ** below

Is the scrund that the saying is universally held, while many legal scholars don't agree with it? no

Would this scrund work just as well with Ben Franklin's version of the quote, where the ratio is 1 to 100, not 1 to 10? yes

***** SPOILER **********
I always thought that the idea that it's better to let 10 guilty men go free than convict one innocent man was put forth fior the sake of the innocent man. But apparently the traditional rationale was to protect the conscience of the jurors & save them from sin. See the link below -- and also see my replacement puzzle!!

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-07-15/reasonable-doubt-is-central-to-zimmerman-verdict.html

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