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Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Post Number: 90
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Posted on Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - 5:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My father was asked a question on a job application back in the 80's. It wasn't until years later that he discovered that there was an ingenious ulterior motive behind the question.

This is supposed to be a "true story," but you never can tell with my dad.
Ixoye724 (Ixoye724)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - 5:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the question related to:
his family?
his age?
his gender?
his height?
his weight?
his previous employment?
his political views?
his religious affiliation?
his skills?
his ethnicity?
someone he knew?
if he would be willing to perform a certain task?
if he would not be willing to perform a certain task?

Did he think the question seemed unrelated to the job for which he was applying? Or did he consider it appropriate and related to the position?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Post Number: 92
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Posted on Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - 5:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the question related to:
his family?
his age?
his gender?
his height?
his weight?
his previous employment?
his political views?
his religious affiliation?
his skills?
his ethnicity?
someone he knew?
if he would be willing to perform a certain task?
if he would not be willing to perform a certain task? None of these

Did he think the question seemed unrelated to the job for which he was applying? Or did he consider it appropriate and related to the position? Not sure. I can envision some reasons it'd be relevant. But the fact that he remembered the question probably meant he thought it was odd.
Redwine (Redwine)
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Post Number: 130
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Posted on Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - 6:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would it help if we discovered to what job was your dad applying?
Was it a question in form of a task to do?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Post Number: 95
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Posted on Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - 7:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would it help if we discovered to what job was your dad applying? Yes
Was it a question in form of a task to do? No
Ixoye724 (Ixoye724)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - 7:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the job in manufacturing? Retail? Service oriented? Public sector?

Did the question relate to his education? Anything about his hobbies or activities? Any kind of hypothetical question ("What would you do if...")? His criminal record, if any?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - 7:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the ulterior motive figuring out something about your father's background? His family? His beliefs? His ethics? His skills? His plans for the future? His true meanings about something? Something about his personality?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Post Number: 96
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Posted on Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - 7:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the job in manufacturing? Retail? Service oriented? Public sector? None of these; public sector might be closest

Did the question relate to his education? No Anything about his hobbies or activities? Yes, DYOD of "activities" Any kind of hypothetical question ("What would you do if...")? No His criminal record, if any? No

Was the ulterior motive figuring out something about your father's background? Yes His family? His beliefs? His ethics? His skills? His plans for the future? His true meanings about something? Something about his personality? No to the rest
Ixoye724 (Ixoye724)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - 8:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Alcohol or tobacco use? Drug use?
Any sports he played?
What kind of car he drove?
Favorite movies or TV shows? Favorite music?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - 10:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Alcohol or tobacco use? Drug use?
Any sports he played?
What kind of car he drove?
Favorite movies or TV shows? Favorite music? None of these
Solo1 (Solo1)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - 10:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If it had been your mother instead of your father, would the question be considered odd? sexist?
Would a HAF be unlikely to apply for such a job?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - 11:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Solo1 (Solo1)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - 10:20 pm:
If it had been your mother instead of your father, would the question be considered odd? no more so than for a man Sexist? no
Would a HAF be unlikely to apply for such a job? It's a fairly male-dominated field

I will say this though: a woman would not have been asked the question. I wouldn't dwell on that, though.
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 16, 2013 - 8:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

When your father discovered the ulterior motive, was it because he read something? He saw something? He applied to another job? He was hiring employers?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 16, 2013 - 1:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

When your father discovered the ulterior motive, was it because he read something? He saw something? He applied to another job? He was hiring employers? Irrelevant. IIRC, a guy he sat next to on a plane who worked for the employer told him.
Solo1 (Solo1)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 16, 2013 - 3:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does the question in any way pertain to externalities, e.g. appearance, clothing, haircut, etc?
Solo1 (Solo1)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 16, 2013 - 3:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Also, would this question be unlawful/un-PC/unlikely to be asked now?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 16, 2013 - 7:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does the question in any way pertain to externalities, e.g. appearance, clothing, haircut, etc? No

Also, would this question be unlawful/un-PC/unlikely to be asked now? Yes, the reason they asked it no longer exists
Ixoye724 (Ixoye724)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 16, 2013 - 10:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh...is the era/decade relevant?
If so, 40's-50's? 60's? 70's?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Posted on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 12:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh...is the era/decade relevant? Yes, it was the '80s. Would probably work in the '90s and the late '70s
If so, 40's-50's? 60's? 70's?
Wizardofnz (Wizardofnz)
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Posted on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 12:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Technology relevant?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Posted on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 2:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Technology relevant? No
Solo1 (Solo1)
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Posted on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 4:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Military service relevant?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 10:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the reason of the question connected with politics?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Posted on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 1:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Posted on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 4:11 am:
Military service relevant? Yes!

Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 10:12 am:
Was the reason of the question connected with politics? Tricky... I'd say no
Doriana (Doriana)
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Posted on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 3:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they ask if he had served in the military?
Relevant that LGBT people were excluded from the military until the early 1990s? So if your dad had says "no", the company would have assumed that he's gay?
Doriana (Doriana)
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Posted on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 3:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Or did he actually apply for a job in the military?
Solo1 (Solo1)
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Posted on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 4:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Draft status relevant? though I don't know why he would think that was 'odd.' Whether he was 4F?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Posted on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 5:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they ask if he had served in the military? No
Relevant that LGBT people were excluded from the military until the early 1990s? Yes! So if your dad had says "no", the company would have assumed that he's gay? No, that'd be quite the leap in logic!

Or did he actually apply for a job in the military? Yes, it was when he was enlisting

Draft status relevant? though I don't know why he would think that was 'odd.' Whether he was 4F? No to both
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 8:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they flat out ask him if he was gay? If so, I may know this.
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 9:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they ask him the question to determine whether he was gay or not? Did the question concern colors? Knowledge about a place? Knowledge about a person?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Posted on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 10:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they flat out ask him if he was gay? I think they did, but that isn't the question the puzzle is about If so, I may know this.

Did they ask him the question to determine whether he was gay or not? Yes Did the question concern colors? Knowledge about a place? Knowledge about a person? No to all
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Sunday, October 20, 2013 - 8:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they ask him question about hobby typically associated with gay people? with women?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 12:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they ask him question about hobby typically associated with gay people? with women? No to both
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 10:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the question about his experiences?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Was the question about his experiences? DYOD, yes
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 9:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they ask whether he tried [particular activity]?
Did their question mention homosexuality at all?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 10:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they ask whether he tried [particular activity]? No
Did their question mention homosexuality at all? No
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 11:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Could this have happened at any point after the passage of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" allowing gays to serve in the military as long as they stayed in the closet? After the repeal, allowing them to serve openly? Would the fact that homosexuality is more accepted in general nowadays make this less likely to happen?
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 11:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

To clarify, is the employer the U.S. Military? The Pentagon? The CIA? The FBI? Some other government agency?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 11:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Could this have happened at any point after the passage of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" allowing gays to serve in the military as long as they stayed in the closet? Yes After the repeal, allowing them to serve openly? No Would the fact that homosexuality is more accepted in general nowadays make this less likely to happen? The fact that gays are allowed to openly serve would make this puzzle impossible

To clarify, is the employer the U.S. Military? It was the Air Force to be exact, not really relevant The Pentagon? The CIA? The FBI? Some other government agency?
Plebeian (Plebeian)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 11:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok, so we have a seemingly innocuous question on an Air Force application form, which is actually designed to determine if the applicant is gay?
Or to suggest that if the answer was of a certain type then the applicant was more likely to be gay?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 1:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok, so we have a seemingly innocuous question on an Air Force application form, which is actually designed to determine if the applicant is gay? Yes
Or to suggest that if the answer was of a certain type then the applicant was more likely to be gay? Noish
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 3:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the question refer to the applicant's past? Did it concern his relationships?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 3:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the question refer to the applicant's past? Yes Did it concern his relationships? No
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 3:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the question concern applicant's ancestors? Schools? Activity in NGOs?
Did it concern applicant's childhood? Teenage years? Adult life?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 3:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the question concern applicant's ancestors? Schools? Activity in NGOs? None of these
Did it concern applicant's childhood? Teenage years? Adult life? Most likely this, although teenage years is possible
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 4:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If DADT had not been repealed, would this still be less likely to happen today since homosexuality is widely accepted?
Plebeian (Plebeian)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 4:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was this a medical question? i.e. concerning any previous medical treatments?
Was it asking about previous job applications?
Was it asking about health (or other?) insurance?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 5:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If DADT had not been repealed, would this still be less likely to happen today since homosexuality is widely accepted? That's debatable. Arguably, no.

Was this a medical question? Yes i.e. concerning any previous medical treatments? Yesish
Was it asking about previous job applications? No
Was it asking about health (or other?) insurance? No
Doriana (Doriana)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 5:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the question about whether he had had a particular disease?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 5:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the question about whether he had had a particular disease? No
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 6:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the question about piercing? Tattoos?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 7:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the question about piercing? Tattoos? No to both
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 8:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they ask about blood donation?
Did they ask about a medical issue that is associated with homosexuality?
Did they ask about a medical issue that cannot be (or usually is not) done to a homosexual?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 9:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they ask about blood donation? Yes!
Did they ask about a medical issue that is associated with homosexuality? No
Did they ask about a medical issue that cannot be (or usually is not) done to a homosexual? Yes

You've pretty much got it. But they didn't ask about blood donations because they wanted to keep out gays. So why'd they ask about it?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2013 - 4:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I know that if you're male, one of the questions you have to answer on a little questionnaire when you donate blood is "Have you ever had sexual contact with another male?" I don't know if this was in place in the 1980s, but I suspect that has something to do with it...?

HIV/AIDS relevant?
Doriana (Doriana)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2013 - 12:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they ask whether he has ever donated blood? whether he has ever received blood? Blood types relevant?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2013 - 2:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Could they get access to blood donation questionnaires? And if someone wrote he donated blood they used to find out the questionnaire and check the homosexuality issue?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2013 - 4:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I know that if you're male, one of the questions you have to answer on a little questionnaire when you donate blood is "Have you ever had sexual contact with another male?" I don't know if this was in place in the 1980s, but I suspect that has something to do with it...? Yes, but there's more to the blood donation policy than just asking about homosexuality

HIV/AIDS relevant? Only as it relates to blood test questionnaires.

Did they ask whether he has ever donated blood? This, no to the rest whether he has ever received blood? Blood types relevant?

Could they get access to blood donation questionnaires? And if someone wrote he donated blood they used to find out the questionnaire and check the homosexuality issue? Not sure if they ever actually pulled up the questionnaires. For their purposes, all they needed to know was that the blood donation had occurred.
Solo1 (Solo1)
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Did they want to know if he felt faint at the sight of blood...
which would certainly be a drawback in the military, but which men would be reluctant to admit, so they wouldn't ask directly?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Did they want to know if he felt faint at the sight of blood...
which would certainly be a drawback in the military, but which men would be reluctant to admit, so they wouldn't ask directly? No. Stick with the gay angle.
Redwine (Redwine)
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If someone donated blood, they knew he cannot be gay, correct?
Did they consider blood donation a valuable experience for future soldiers? Did they encourage blood donation? Did the discourage blood donation?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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If someone donated blood, they knew he cannot be gay, correct? Correct, this is important
Did they consider blood donation a valuable experience for future soldiers? Not relevantly Did they encourage blood donation? Not relevantly Did they discourage blood donation? I'd hope this isn't the case
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Did they want to be able to blackmail gays by threatening to out them if they didn't follow orders? Or if they leaked documents? I know someone who said the military used to do that, but they flat out asked if he was gay. He was just applying for an engineering job, not as a combat soldier, so the policies against homosexuals wouldn't have applied.
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Did they want to be able to blackmail gays by threatening to out them if they didn't follow orders? No Or if they leaked documents? No I know someone who said the military used to do that, but they flat out asked if he was gay. He was just applying for an engineering job, not as a combat soldier, so the policies against homosexuals wouldn't have applied.

To reiterate, discriminating against gays was not the reason for the question
Plebeian (Plebeian)
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Posted on Monday, October 28, 2013 - 11:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, to be clear - the question on the application form was "Have you ever given blood" or some minor variation thereof) - correct?
And the reason for this question being asked was actually to determine if the applicant was gay - correct? Because giving blood = not gay?
Would having given blood mean the forces would have access to some other relevant medical information, through the blood donation records?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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So, to be clear - the question on the application form was "Have you ever given blood" or some minor variation thereof) - correct? Yes
And the reason for this question being asked was actually to determine if the applicant was gay - correct? Yes Because giving blood = not gay? Yes
Would having given blood mean the forces would have access to some other relevant medical information, through the blood donation records? No
Plebeian (Plebeian)
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I don't know if this has been explored...
If the answer to the question was Yes, they had given blood, would this have meant that a suitable candidate was more likely to be accepted?
Or would it mean a candidate was less likely to be accepted?
Would a response either way have actually affected a candidate's chances?
Biograd (Biograd)
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Is it important that a person would be more likely to trust the confidentiality of a statement made before blood donation (due to medical privacy laws) than a statement made during a job interview?

Was the more important fact to be learned from this question whether the applicant was homosexual, per se? or whether he was "in the closet" about his sexual orientation?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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If the answer to the question was Yes, they had given blood, would this have meant that a suitable candidate was more likely to be accepted?
Or would it mean a candidate was less likely to be accepted? No to both
Would a response either way have actually affected a candidate's chances? No

Is it important that a person would be more likely to trust the confidentiality of a statement made before blood donation (due to medical privacy laws) than a statement made during a job interview? Noish

Was the more important fact to be learned from this question whether the applicant was homosexual, per se? Yes or whether he was "in the closet" about his sexual orientation? Yes
Redwine (Redwine)
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It's a common practice in questionnaires to ask for the same information in few different ways to check if the person speaks (writes) the truth... Did they want to check if he gave the same answer (leading to the same conclusions) in both blood donation and homosexuality questions?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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It's a common practice in questionnaires to ask for the same information in few different ways to check if the person speaks (writes) the truth... Did they want to check if he gave the same answer (leading to the same conclusions) in both blood donation and homosexuality questions? Yesish, with a huge ish
Plebeian (Plebeian)
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Posted on Thursday, October 31, 2013 - 11:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, was there another question on the form relevant to this?
Something which, taken together with the Blood Donor question, would indicate something else?
Were they asked for their blood group?
Indicating that if they knew their blood group but hadn't given blood, they'd had a blood test for something?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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So, was there another question on the form relevant to this? No
Something which, taken together with the Blood Donor question, would indicate something else? No
Were they asked for their blood group? No
Indicating that if they knew their blood group but hadn't given blood, they'd had a blood test for something? No, but it's an interesting train of thought
Plebeian (Plebeian)
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Hmmm... struggling to see how a simply yes/no answer to the single question "have you ever given blood" could lead to other conclusions without other information
Was there some information regarding the applicant that would previously be known that would be used in conjunction with the Donation questiom?
Or was the question phrased in such a way as to illicit more information?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Hmmm... struggling to see how a simply yes/no answer to the single question "have you ever given blood" could lead to other conclusions without other information
Was there some information regarding the applicant that would previously be known that would be used in conjunction with the Donation questiom?
Or was the question phrased in such a way as to illicit more information? No to all. Perhaps one of my answers was confusing. The singlular reason for the blood donation question was to find out their sexual orientation. But they also weren't interested in proving that my dad was gay.
Redwine (Redwine)
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Were they interested in proving something at all?
Did they want to prove something else that is unique for homosexual people? Something else that is not unique for homosexual people but dependent on/related to sexual orientation?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Were they interested in proving something at all? Yes
Did they want to prove something else that is unique for homosexual people? No Something else that is not unique for homosexual people but dependent on/related to sexual orientation? No, slight FA
Redwine (Redwine)
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Did they want to prove if your dad wrote the truth (generally) in the form? If he wrote the truth on particular subject, other than homosexuality issue?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Did they want to prove if your dad wrote the truth (generally) in the form? Yes! If he wrote the truth on particular subject, other than homosexuality issue? No, they were interested in whether he told the truth on that question
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2013 - 1:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, let me check if I get it right:
They asked in the form two relevant questions:
1) One asking directly about sexual orientation of candidate
2) The other asking if the candidate has ever given blood.
The purpose was to find out if the candidate give true responses to the questions. Combining the responses for these two questions they could see if they were coherent with each other - this meaning candidate spoke the truth. All correct?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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They asked in the form two relevant questions:
1) One asking directly about sexual orientation of candidate Yes
2) The other asking if the candidate has ever given blood. Yes
The purpose was to find out if the candidate give true responses to the questions. Yes. Well they also asked about orientation to kick out gays, but within the context of the puzzle, yes. Combining the responses for these two questions they could see if they were coherent with each other - this meaning candidate spoke the truth. Yes. The answer to your unspoken question- What am I missing here?- is why the military is so interested in proving candidates told the truth?
Plebeian (Plebeian)
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So, asking about whether the candidate had given blood, when this fact could presumably be verified elsewhere?
This would indicate that perhaps the candidate wouldn't want to be truthful about giving blood?
Redwine (Redwine)
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I think that any possible employer would like to know if their employees tell the truth... Did they want to keep out liars? Did the military also want to know why were certain candidates lying?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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So, asking about whether the candidate had given blood, when this fact could presumably be verified elsewhere? I believe so
This would indicate that perhaps the candidate wouldn't want to be truthful about giving blood? No

I think that any possible employer would like to know if their employees tell the truth... Did they want to keep out liars? Depends on when they lie! Did the military also want to know why were certain candidates lying? No
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2013 - 2:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the military want to prove they really keep out gays, basing not only on candidate's statement about sexual orientation, but also on additional, checking question (about blood donation)?

Only possibility to know that candidate was surely lying is getting both answers "yes" (Candidate claims to be homosexual and that he'd given blood). In that case, would the cantidate not be accepted to the military?

Is all this to check candidates responsibility - that they're not giving blood if they're gay?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2013 - 3:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the military want to prove they really keep out gays, basing not only on candidate's statement about sexual orientation, but also on additional, checking question (about blood donation)? No, the blood donation question was not about weeding out gays

Only possibility to know that candidate was surely lying is getting both answers "yes" (Candidate claims to be homosexual and that he'd given blood). That's the only combination of answers that'd be a clear lie, yes In that case, would the cantidate not be accepted to the military? Well yes, he wouldn't be accepted, but that'd already be the case since he said upfront that he was gay.

Is all this to check candidates responsibility - that they're not giving blood if they're gay? No

You are OTRT when thinking about what conclusions can be drawn from the combination of the two answers. I'll even say that there was one particular combination that's relevant.
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2013 - 8:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Claiming homosexuality makes candidate not acceptable. Denying homosexuality and not giving blood seems to lead to no conclusion at all, people may not give blood for number of reasons.
In either combination with one yes and one no, it's impossible to determine if answers are true or false only from the answers...

So, is the relevant combination denying homosexuality and giving blood? In that case, would candidate be accepted? Not accepted? Subject to more detailed questioning? Would they check blood donation questionnaires in that case?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2013 - 8:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Claiming homosexuality makes candidate not acceptable. Denying homosexuality and not giving blood seems to lead to no conclusion at all, people may not give blood for number of reasons.
In either combination with one yes and one no, it's impossible to determine if answers are true or false only from the answers... All true

So, is the relevant combination denying homosexuality and giving blood? Yes In that case, would candidate be accepted? Yes Not accepted? No Subject to more detailed questioning? No Would they check blood donation questionnaires in that case? No
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2013 - 8:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So...
Did the military think that if someone admits giving blood, he is telling the truth, because he knows this statement can be easily checked? And if he's telling the truth about blood, he is also telling the truth about homosexuality, what is also supported by the fact that homosexual people cannot give blood?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2013 - 8:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the military think that if someone admits giving blood, he is telling the truth, because he knows this statement can be easily checked? And if he's telling the truth about blood, he is also telling the truth about homosexuality, what is also supported by the fact that homosexual people cannot give blood? Really just the second part. They just wanted solid confirmation that he was straight.
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Friday, November 08, 2013 - 9:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they fear discrimination lawsuits? In which they could say that they reject candidates basing on blood donation question rather than homosexuality question?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Did they fear discrimination lawsuits? No In which they could say that they reject candidates basing on blood donation question rather than homosexuality question? No, but a clever thought
Plebeian (Plebeian)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 12, 2013 - 11:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, we know they asked "Are you Straight", obviously an answer to that is definitive.
And they asked "Have you given blood", knowing a Yes would confirm. (though a No wouldn't be definitive, the guy may just have never given blood).
Do they have mandatory blood donation in the forces?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 12, 2013 - 3:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, we know they asked "Are you Straight", obviously an answer to that is definitive.
And they asked "Have you given blood", knowing a Yes would confirm. (though a No wouldn't be definitive, the guy may just have never given blood). Yes and yes
Do they have mandatory blood donation in the forces? I don't think so, irrelevant
Plebeian (Plebeian)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - 10:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Erm, so the explanation of the statement "Why they asked" is "They asked if a candidate has given blood, knowing that a positive answer would affirm the candidate's straight status, which they'd also asked outright in another question".
Is there more?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Erm, so the explanation of the statement "Why they asked" is "They asked if a candidate has given blood, knowing that a positive answer would affirm the candidate's straight status, which they'd also asked outright in another question".
Is there more? There is more, specifically the motive. There was a specific reason they wanted to be able to prove beyond a doubt that a soldier was straight.
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - 3:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would the recruiters have faced unpleasant consequences, having accepted a homosexual?
Are lawsuits relevant?
Did they want to prove beyond a doubt that a soldier was straight for the sake of recruiters? Military oficials? Military as a whole? Candidate's fellow soldiers?
Plebeian (Plebeian)
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Ahh...
Anything to do with potential blood being spilt in battle?
Or the prospect of same-sex relationships being formed in battle conditions?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Would the recruiters have faced unpleasant consequences, having accepted a homosexual? Unless they explicitly said they were gay, no
Are lawsuits relevant? Not really
Did they want to prove beyond a doubt that a soldier was straight for the sake of recruiters? No Military oficials? Slightly this Military as a whole? This Candidate's fellow soldiers? No

Anything to do with potential blood being spilt in battle? No
Or the prospect of same-sex relationships being formed in battle conditions?No
Redwine (Redwine)
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Do they want to avoid homosexual relationships in the military?
Do we seek the motive why they kept gays out of military? Or rather why they needed such a confirmation of someone being straight?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Do they want to avoid homosexual relationships in the military? Irrelevant
Do we seek the motive why they kept gays out of military? No Or rather why they needed such a confirmation of someone being straight? Yes
Redwine (Redwine)
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Was explicite asking for sexual orientation legal? Was it considered inappropriate? Could it's results be easily negated? Did they just not believe in answers to that question?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Was explicite asking for sexual orientation legal? At the time, yes Was it considered inappropriate? During recruitment? No. Could it's results be easily negated? The initial questionnaire? No. Did they just not believe in answers to that question? On the contrary, they strongly suspected that recruits saying they were straight were telling the truth.

Perhaps time for another hint. The blood donation question was placed in response to a frustrating issue the military faced during the Vietnam War, primarily with draftees.
Plebeian (Plebeian)
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That sounds like the question is kinda the other way round - did they suspect some people would say they were gay to avoid being accepted into the military?
And the Blood donation question would prove the positive response was a lie?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 6:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That sounds like the question is kinda the other way round - did they suspect some people would say they were gay to avoid being accepted into the military? This is VERY close, but not quite it. But that was indeed the problem when they were drafting unwilling men.
And the Blood donation question would prove the positive response was a lie? Yes
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 2:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would someone who wanted to get out of military service during the war "admit" to being gay so they would be kicked out? Or maybe even have romantic relations with a fellow soldier who also wanted to be kicked out? And the blood donation question proves they were straight and just engaged in open homosexuality with the goal of being discharged, which under DADT would not result in a discharge?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Were draftees accusing military that they (draftees) were subjects to sexual assaults during service?
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Post Number: 1053
Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 1:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would gay people be actually allowed into the military, but not in front-line roles? Therefore a Yes would ensure placement into a less risky part of the forces?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
New member
Username: Alexanderhamilton

Post Number: 297
Registered: 9-2013
Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 4:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would someone who wanted to get out of military service during the war "admit" to being gay so they would be kicked out? Or maybe even have romantic relations with a fellow soldier who also wanted to be kicked out? And the blood donation question proves they were straight and just engaged in open homosexuality with the goal of being discharged, which under DADT would not result in a discharge? This is pretty much exactly it.

******SPOILER******
When my dad applied for the Air Force Academy in the mid-1980's, they asked him if he had donated blood. At the time, my father didn't take much note of it (he hadn't) except perhaps that it might have been an indication of self-sacrifice and duty or whatever.

Years later, he was on flight next to a former Air Force recruiter. They had a good chat about the good ol' days, went to meet the pilot in the cockpit (which was allowed back then), and the man finally revealed why he had been asked a blood donation question. Whenever a soldier had an "epiphany" that he was actually gay, they would use it as evidence that he was likely lying.

They eventually dropped it for several reasons. Partly because most people claimed they only became gay AFTER they enlisted, to avoid admitting to lying to an officer. Mostly, because someone who is willing to lie about what was at the time hugely embarrassing just to avoid service is probably not worth keeping around. As a fun aside, my dad told me it was later called the "Top Gun" question, because the Air Force saw a huge surge of eager recruits after the movie, very few of whom were actually fighter pilot material.

Great job to everyone who stuck it out to the end, especially Redwine and Plebian, and Gregory for the solve.

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