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Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Saturday, October 19, 2013 - 4:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

...and that's how they got their name.
An allegedly true story, and bristling with famous HAMs and other fun stuff.
Kayleearafinwiel (Kayleearafinwiel)
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Posted on Saturday, October 19, 2013 - 7:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"they": human? animal? vegetable? mineral? other?
if human, adult? male?
"they" = "their"? if not, same questions for "their" as for "they".

the "He" in the puzzle title: H/A/M?
was he offended? or did someone else perceive him as being offended when he wasn't actually?

if he was truly offended, was it for legitimate cause?

is "their name" the name of an organization? a team?
a food? a mechanism? a disease?

is it a derogatory name? a nickname?

are "they" named for "him"?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Saturday, October 19, 2013 - 7:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kayleearafinwiel
"they": human? animal? this vegetable? mineral? other?
if human, adult? male? thus n/a
"they" = "their"? yes if not, same questions for "their" as for "they".

the "He" in the puzzle title: H/A/M? yes, and apparently famous
was he offended? he was, and I would have been -- am -- too or did someone else perceive him as being offended when he wasn't actually?

if he was truly offended, was it for legitimate cause? according to some standards, yes

is "their name" the name of an organization? a team?
a food? this a mechanism? a disease?

is it a derogatory name? yes, although no longer a nickname?

are "they" named for "him"? no
good questions
Kayleearafinwiel (Kayleearafinwiel)
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Posted on Saturday, October 19, 2013 - 5:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok, so let me get this straight. "He", an apparently famous H/A/M, was offended for legitimate - by some standards, including yours - cause.

Therefore, "they" received a name that was previously derogatory, but is not now. "They" are animals, but the name is that of a food - is the food made from these animals, then?

Was the H/A/M alive in {LTPF list of centuries}? Is he currently alive? (Judging by the way you phrased your answers, I tend to doubt it - it seems like he's a legend of some sort).

On that note, was the H/A/M a real person? fictional? a folk tale? Paul Bunyan? Green Giant? lol, haven't had breakfast yet, just tossing out random questions...and Green Giant is vegetables, anyway. >.<
Psydkik (Psydkik)
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Posted on Saturday, October 19, 2013 - 5:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was this a name given to all animals of that sort? (eg all giraffes?) Or was this a name given only to specific animals? (eg just the giraffes in London Zoo?)

Were the animals his pets?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Saturday, October 19, 2013 - 5:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kayleearafinwiel
Ok, so let me get this straight. "He", an apparently famous H/A/M, was offended for legitimate - by some standards, including yours - cause. correct

Therefore, "they" received a name that was previously derogatory, but is not now. yes "They" are animals, FA but the name is that of a food - is the food made from these animals, then? the food is "animal," as opposed to vegetable or mineral

Was the H/A/M alive in {LTPF list of centuries}? 18th/19th Is he currently alive? ...so no (Judging by the way you phrased your answers, I tend to doubt it - it seems like he's a legend of some sort). (he's pretty legendary to some, perhaps a rather select few)

On that note, was the H/A/M a real person? yes fictional? a folk tale? Paul Bunyan? Green Giant? lol, haven't had breakfast yet, just tossing out random questions...and Green Giant is vegetables, anyway. >.< the "Green Man" is a legitimate folk figure, but the "Green Giant" is a vegetable packer's marketing scheme... enjoy your breakfast
Psydkik (Psydkik)
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Posted on Saturday, October 19, 2013 - 6:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh :-S "They" are not animals? But things made from animals? Free Range Shuttlecocks? :-D
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Saturday, October 19, 2013 - 6:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Psydkik
Oh :-S "They" are not animals? no But things made from animals? yesish Free Range Shuttlecocks? :-D badminton had not yet been invented at the time of the offense, I don't think. Besides, "Free Range Shuttlecocks" is a band, playing a hybrid of klezmer and bluegrass, among other things.
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Saturday, October 19, 2013 - 7:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he live in France? Is the food in question sort of a fast food?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Sunday, October 20, 2013 - 12:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Redwine
Did he live in France? yes Is the food in question sort of a fast food? not at all -- or rather, au contraire, cher cheri
Psydkik (Psydkik)
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Posted on Sunday, October 20, 2013 - 12:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"They" - are more than one of the same thing? Or a collection of different things?

"They" are made partly from animal products? And also partly from non-animal products?

Was he a politician? soldier?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Sunday, October 20, 2013 - 1:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Psydkik
"They" - are more than one of the same thing? yes Or a collection of different things? no

"They" are made partly from animal products? yesish And also partly from non-animal products? no

Was he a politician? soldier? neither

Psydkik: I like how you format the poster's name with a color, so I'm going to try to adopt that... thanks for your benevolent influence. I'll go with green, since I'm sort of an outdoorsy guy.
Psydkik (Psydkik)
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Posted on Sunday, October 20, 2013 - 1:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I always think colour is underused in forums for its usefulness in separating different passages of text ... not often I'm a 'trendsetter' though :-)

"They" are made partly from animal products? ["yesish" - ok, need to get rid of the 'ish' ;-)]

"They" are animal products - ie not 'made from', just 'are'?

"They" are made not from 'animal products' but from something else that relates to animals?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Sunday, October 20, 2013 - 1:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Psydkik
"They" are made partly from animal products? ["yesish" - ok, need to get rid of the 'ish' ;-)] go for it
"They" are animal products - ie not 'made from', just 'are'? that's right: the "ish" has vanished
"They" are made not from 'animal products' but from something else that relates to animals? right the first time; see above
...and right you are about colors; I hope Redwine posts again so I can color her name red
Psydkik (Psydkik)
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Posted on Sunday, October 20, 2013 - 2:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the Animal Products from mammals? Fish? ;-)

And this name of the Animal Products is a type of food? Does that type of food come from the same animal as the Animal Products?

Is that name given to the Animal Products in general (eg all magpie feathers are called this name)? Or is that name given only to a specific few of that type of Animal Products (eg only magpie feathers owned by Joe Bloggs are called this name)?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Sunday, October 20, 2013 - 2:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Psydkik
Are the Animal Products from mammals? yes Fish? ;-) dammit! no fish are involved in this puzzle. $poil it, though, and I can probably muster another seafood puzzle...perhaps involving my beloved pickled herring... oops... or go to "...to excess" -- that puzzle involves fish.
And this name of the Animal Products is a type of food? yes, DOYD of "type" Does that type of food come from the same animal as the Animal Products? HTA [hard to answer], as the "type" of food IS the animal product.
Is that name given to the Animal Products in general (eg all magpie feathers are called this name)? yes -- but can they be goose feathers instead...? Or is that name given only to a specific few of that type of Animal Products (eg only magpie feathers owned by Joe Bloggs are called this name)? ...but it was this way, once
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Sunday, October 20, 2013 - 11:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the man offended during French Revolution? If yes, by the monarchists? By the revolutioners?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Sunday, October 20, 2013 - 1:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Redwine
Was the man offended during French Revolution? no If yes, by the monarchists? By the revolutioners?
Psydkik (Psydkik)
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Posted on Sunday, October 20, 2013 - 3:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the animal products things that come off the animals as part of their normal life? Like hairs, baby teeth, toenails?

Or are the animal products things that you can only acquire once the animal is dead?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Sunday, October 20, 2013 - 5:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Psydkik
Are the animal products things that come off the animals as part of their normal life? Like hairs, baby teeth, toenails? no
Or are the animal products things that you can only acquire once the animal is dead? this
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Sunday, October 20, 2013 - 6:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are "they" meat products? Are "they" particular dish? If a dish, does that dish consist of also something else besides meat? Is that dish considered French cuisine?
Are "they" named with his surname? His nickname? His first name?
Do they have also their generic name as a part of their full name (like Salad X, Sauce Y)?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Sunday, October 20, 2013 - 6:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Redwine
Are "they" meat products? yes Are "they" particular dish? yope, now If a dish, does that dish consist of also something else besides meat? as a dish, yes Is that dish considered French cuisine? yes
Are "they" named with his surname? His nickname? His first name? none of these
Do they have also their generic name as a part of their full name (like Salad X, Sauce Y)? dishes include "their" name
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Sunday, October 20, 2013 - 8:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was "he" Napoleon?
Are "they" named with his title?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Sunday, October 20, 2013 - 8:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Redwine
Was "he" Napoleon? no
Are "they" named with his title? no
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Sunday, October 20, 2013 - 8:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the meat beef? pork? poultry? lamb?
Something more extraordinary, like snails? frog?
When he was offended, was he called somehow? And the meat product/dish is now called the same way?
Was the famous man writer? composer? ruler? politician? inventor?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Sunday, October 20, 2013 - 9:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Redwine
Is the meat beef? this pork? poultry? lamb?
Something more extraordinary, like snails? frog?
When he was offended, was he called somehow? known by his name, occasionally with a title, and now also known to some with an appended superlative And the meat product/dish is now called the same way? no
Was the famous man writer? composer? ruler? politician? inventor? none of these
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Sunday, October 20, 2013 - 9:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was he military? Was he aristocrate? Was he a member of clergy?
When he was offended, did someone call him by an offending epithet? Was he offended in press? Was he offended by one person?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Sunday, October 20, 2013 - 9:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Redwine
Was he military? Was he aristocrate? Was he a member of clergy? none of these
When he was offended, did someone call him by an offending epithet? Was he offended in press? Was he offended by one person? none of these, either
Psydkik (Psydkik)
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Posted on Sunday, October 20, 2013 - 11:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Presumably this isn't a name for all beef?

So it's the name for a particular type/cut of beef?

Or the name for a particular way of cooking beef?

Or the name of a particular dish that has beef as one of its ingredients?


Was he offended in writing? In speech? By an action?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 12:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Psydkik
Presumably this isn't a name for all beef? no
So it's the name for a particular type/cut this of beef?
Or the name for a particular way of cooking beef? no
Or the name of a particular dish that has beef as one of its ingredients? yesish, partly, nowadays
Was he offended in writing? In speech? By an action? none of these
Kayleearafinwiel (Kayleearafinwiel)
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Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 2:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

boeuf en croute relevant?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 2:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kayleearafinwiel
boeuf en croute relevant? non, but in an interesting way, OTRT
Kayleearafinwiel (Kayleearafinwiel)
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Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 2:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So not Beef Wellington then...ah, well. And I was so proud of myself for knowing the French name, too. Lol. :-P
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 3:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kayleearafinwiel
So not Beef Wellington then...ah, well. And I was so proud of myself for knowing the French name, too. Lol. :-P they're actually different dishes; Beouf Wellington is in the category of "Beouf en Croute," but has a special preparation. Still, oddly, OTRT. Perhaps worth exploring...
Kayleearafinwiel (Kayleearafinwiel)
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Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 6:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh, you said cuts of beef. Here, then - French names with English equivalents.

Filet – Fillet, tender, juicy, expensive.

Faux-Filet – Sirloin steak with a different name in each English-speaking country.

Entrecôte – Fore rib steak. We’ve made fore rib roasts out of this in the past. My personal favourite steak.

Basses-côtes – Chuck steak although I could be misundersting things in the UK. This is like the fore rib/entrecôte but further forward. Rosbeef – Rump roast, likely Silverside

Rumsteak – Rump steak (in steak form rather than roast form)

Gite/Noix and Rond de Gite – this is a tricky one as it seems the Rond de Gite is part Topside and part Thick Flank, and the Gite à la Noix is Thick Flank. In the USA we just make it easy and call it all Round.

Tende de tranche – more Rump steak

Tranche Grasse – a rump steak but a hard one to track down. See number 8 in these butcher photos. There are six muscles in the Tranche and they have distinct names in French.

Bavette – Flank steak

Osseline and Onglet – Hanger steak, although we received just one packet of Onglet from this cow and it is sitting in my fridge right now.

Bourgignon – Beef cubes for braising (e.g. for Bourgignon!)

Paleron and Macreuse – Thick rib (or brisket). Braise this.

Pot au feu – More thick rib/brisket for braising.

Plat de Côte – More thick rib/brisket.

Queue – Oxtail
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Kayleearafinwiel
Oh, you said cuts of beef. Here, then - French names with English equivalents.

- Filet – Fillet, tender, juicy, expensive.
- Faux-Filet – Sirloin steak with a different name in each English-speaking country.
- Entrecôte – Fore rib steak. We’ve made fore rib roasts out of this in the past. My personal favourite steak.
- Basses-côtes – Chuck steak although I could be misundersting things in the UK. This is like the fore rib/entrecôte but further forward. Rosbeef – Rump roast, likely Silverside
- Rumsteak – Rump steak (in steak form rather than roast form)
- Gite/Noix and Rond de Gite – this is a tricky one as it seems the Rond de Gite is part Topside and part Thick Flank, and the Gite à la Noix is Thick Flank. In the USA we just make it easy and call it all Round.
- Tende de tranche – more Rump steak
- Tranche Grasse – a rump steak but a hard one to track down. There are six muscles in the Tranche and they have distinct names in French.
- Bavette – Flank steak
- Osseline and Onglet – Hanger steak, although we received just one packet of Onglet from this cow and it is sitting in my fridge right now.
- Bourgignon – Beef cubes for braising (e.g. for Bourgignon!)
- Paleron and Macreuse – Thick rib (or brisket). Braise this.
- Pot au feu – More thick rib/brisket for braising.
- Plat de Côte – More thick rib/brisket.
- Queue – Oxtail
stunning and impressive [LTPF list of French cuts of beef]...!
The key: do any of these seem pejorative, or might they have been in the past?
And alas: the cut of beef in question does not appear on this list...

small disclosure [hence the small typeface]: I spent twenty years working in commercial kitchens, was the executive chef in one of Seattle's principal French restaurants, and did all the butchery, so the posted list makes me quake with nostalgia.
I learned the tale of the cut in question from Thierry Rautureau, who's rather a Seattle legend -- a proper French chef, unlike we domestic pretenders -- so perhaps, if you know one, you might ask him/her.
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 10:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Cul de boeuf?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 10:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Redwine
Cul de boeuf? no, and neither is it sabot de boeuf, nor langue, crevelles, ou coeur de boeuf just to save you the trouble.
I wish you could invoke the [LTPF list of French cuts of beef], but that's already been done, and to everyone's surprise, it didn't work.
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 10:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the offense include "boeuf" at all? Did the offense refer to a part of beef's body? Did the offense has offensive meaning only in French?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 10:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Redwine
Did the offense include "boeuf" at all? yes, but subtract the quotation marks to avoid FA Did the offense refer to a part of beef's body? yes -- the offense included a cut of beef Did the offense has offensive meaning only in French? no; the offense is not lingual -- my French is principally food-related, and even without it, I'd be -- still am -- offended.
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 10:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the offended man a cook? A butcher? Otherwise professionally connected with food?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 11:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Redwine
Was the offended man a cook? yes, a chef A butcher? Otherwise professionally connected with food?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 11:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the offense refer to the person of the chef? Did someone complain about a food he prepared? Did someone make an offensive remark about cooks/chefs in general? About French cuisine in general?
Was there only one offenser?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Post Number: 238
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Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 11:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Redwine
Did the offense refer to the person of the chef? no Did someone complain about a food he prepared? no Did someone make an offensive remark about cooks/chefs in general? no -- and let's hope not... although some can be pretty offensive... About French cuisine in general? no; same goes for that: let's hope not
Was there only one offenser? yes, another famous HAM. Now: who was offended?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Post Number: 301
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Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 11:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm trying to clarify...
Was he offended by one person? none of these, either
Was there only one offenser? yes, another famous HAM.

Taking both above responses into account:
Did the offenser refer to the chef at all? Did the offenser refer to something/someone completely different that the chef/chef's food, but the chef still felt offended? Did the offenser want to offend the chef?
Was the offense expressed in speech? In writing? In action?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Post Number: 240
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Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 11:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Redwine
I'm trying to clarify...
Was he offended by one person? thisish... none of these, either
Was there only one offenser? yes, another famous HAM. indeed; we all know him and his great work
Taking both above responses into account:
Did the offenser refer to the chef at all? no, although they did interact Did the offenser refer to something/someone completely different that the chef/chef's food, but the chef still felt offended? not this Did the offenser want to offend the chef? no; he had the greatest respect for him, although the chef was still highly offended -- so offended that we're still talking about it nearly two hundred years later...
Was the offense expressed in speech? the offender spoke In writing? In action?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Post Number: 304
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Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 12:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the offender also French?
Was the offender ruler? military? clergy? artist? inventor? chef?
Psydkik (Psydkik)
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Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 1:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the offender eat the chef's dish?

Did the offender say something like "Yum, that was nice lamb, much better than beef" after eating the beef, or otherwise refer to the dish in a way that made it sound as if the cook had produced something wrong/disgusting?

Did the offender know the chef had cooked the beef?

Did the offender's comments get relayed to the chef by someone else, eg a waiter?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Post Number: 243
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Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 3:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Redwine
Was the offender also French? no
Was the offender ruler? military? clergy? artist? this inventor? chef?

Psydkik
Did the offender eat the chef's dish? surely he did, and loved it
Did the offender say something like "Yum, that was nice lamb, much better than beef" after eating the beef, or otherwise refer to the dish in a way that made it sound as if the cook had produced something wrong/disgusting? he thought it was marvelous
Did the offender know the chef had cooked the beef? yes
Did the offender's comments get relayed to the chef by someone else, eg a waiter? likely, but you seem to be harboring a FA
Psydkik (Psydkik)
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Post Number: 361
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Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 4:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the offender make the comment at the time of eating the dish? While making art?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Post Number: 246
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Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 5:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Psydkik
Did the offender make the comment at the time of eating the dish? While making art? still a FA
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 6:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the offender make a comment at all? Did he picture the chef (and his beef) in his work of art, given that he was the artist?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 6:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Redwine
Did the offender make a comment at all? he likely did, but said nothing offensive Did he picture the chef (and his beef) in his work of art, given that he was the artist? no
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 6:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the chef feel offended as a result of what the artist said? Did the chef suspect that artist's admiration for the beef was untrue?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Post Number: 252
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Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 6:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Redwine
Did the chef feel offended as a result of what the artist said? let's assume that the chef never heard what the artist said -- or if he did, he wasn't listening Did the chef suspect that artist's admiration for the beef was untrue? no
Redwine (Redwine)
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Post Number: 328
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Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 10:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did someone tell the chef what the artist said? If yes, was that account correct?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 10:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Redwine
Did someone tell the chef what the artist said? we still have a FA If yes, was that account correct? if the artist said anything, and he likely did, it would have been along the lines of, "That was magnificent!" -- but in another language, of course...
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 10:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok, so the chef served the beef to the artist, artist enjoyed and complimented the meal. And noone is offended so far. Correct?
Did the artist say something offensive at a later occassion? If yes, did it refer to the meal?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Post Number: 256
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Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 10:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Redwine
Ok, so the chef served the beef to the artist, artist enjoyed and complimented the meal (we're assuming he did -- it was expertly prepared, and the artist is a boisterous, ebullient, fun-loving fellow). And noone is offended so far. Correct? no -- the chef is offended
Did the artist say something offensive at a later occassion? doubtful -- there's a lurking FA If yes, did it refer to the meal?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Post Number: 338
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Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 11:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Now I am totally confused...

Is it safe to assume that the artist did not mean anything offensive, yet the chef felt offended?
Did the artist behave differently than the chef expected? If yes, did the chef expect more compliments? Some criticism? Did the chef think the artist did not respect the meal as it deserved?
Is savoir-vivre relevant to this puzzle?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Post Number: 258
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Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 11:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Redwine
Now I am totally confused...
I think the FA might be leading you astray...
Is it safe to assume that the artist did not mean anything offensive, yet the chef felt offended? yes
Did the artist behave differently than the chef expected? no, he was staying in character, so to speak If yes, did the chef expect more compliments? doubtful; he knew he was a great chef, and was likely self-assured Some criticism? certainly not that Did the chef think the artist did not respect the meal as it deserved? no
Is savoir-vivre relevant to this puzzle? no, but we may assume the artist - remember, he's a famous HAM - comported himself with decorum. The chef may not have, but that's how chefs notoriously are, and at any rate, it's irrelevant.
your tenacity is admirable
Psydkik (Psydkik)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 12:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

There's just one chef and just one artist involved in this story? And just one beef dish?

The chef was not offended at the time he served the beef?

The artist said nothing other than an intended compliment about the beef dish?

The chef was unoffended before the artist started speaking?
The chef was offended by the time the artist finished speaking?
The chef became offended only some time after the artist finished speaking?

Was the chef in the same building as the artist? In the same city?

Did the artist get the chef's name wrong?

Was the manner of speaking what offended the chef? Did the artist speak with his mouth full? Did he speak before finishing the dish? Did he look upset or uninpressed even though he was saying something complimentary?

Did he ask for completely the wrong sort of redwine to go with his beef? ;-)
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Post Number: 261
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Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 12:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Psydkik
There's just one chef and just one artist involved in this story? And just one beef dish? one of each: famous chef, famous artist, beef dish
The chef was not offended at the time he served the beef? yes, he was
The artist said nothing other than an intended compliment about the beef dish? whatever the artist said after sampling the dish is irrelevant
The chef was unoffended before the artist started speaking? yes
The chef was offended by the time the artist finished speaking? he was still offended – and the FA remains
The chef became offended only some time after the artist finished speaking? no – he was already offended
Was the chef in the same building as the artist? yes In the same city?
Did the artist get the chef's name wrong? no – that would have been nearly impossible
Was the manner of speaking what offended the chef? Did the artist speak with his mouth full? Did he speak before finishing the dish? Did he look upset or uninpressed even though he was saying something complimentary? nothing along these lines at all
Did he ask for completely the wrong sort of redwine to go with his beef? ;-) it’s possible, but irrelevant – and that would offend certain chefs, indeed
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 8:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The chef was already offended at the time he served the beef but unoffended before the artist started speaking?
Did the chef feel offended because he had to work as chef in that place? because the artist visited the place? Because the artist ordered this dish?
Did the artist order his dish prepared certain way? Did the artist order the dish at all (as opposed of having it offered by someone)?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Post Number: 264
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Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 8:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Redwine
The chef was already offended at the time he served the beef but unoffended before the artist started speaking? he was offended before the artist sampled the beef preparation -- anything the artist might have had to say after sampling it, or not, is irrelevant -- as posted previously, he would have thought it was "Magnifique!" -- and likely said so. Regardless, our chef was offended.
Did the chef feel offended because he had to work as chef in that place? not at all -- people flocked there because he was the chef because the artist visited the place? no; the artist is a great and famous man -- his patronage would be desirable, and good for business -- who is he? Because the artist ordered this dish? this is OTRT
Did the artist order his dish prepared certain way? yes Did the artist order the dish at all (as opposed of having it offered by someone)? yes
these are good questions -- this thread is going long, and there's actually much excitement yet to discover; perhaps I'll post a recap, but there's much information embedded above...
Psydkik (Psydkik)
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Post Number: 380
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Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 9:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ah, ok so:

The chef was originally unoffended.
Then the artist spoke to order his dish.
By the time the artist had finished speaking to order his dish, the chef was offended.
Then the chef served the dish, the artist ate it, and liked it.
Correct at last? :-)

Did the artist ask for his beef "well done" rather than "medium rare" - or some other exact instructions that to the artist meant "nice and cooked" and to the chef meant "overcooked"?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Post Number: 266
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Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 9:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Psydkik
Ah, ok so:

The chef was originally unoffended. yes; just going about his culinary business
Then the artist spoke to order his dish. roughly, yes: a waiter was likely an intermediary
By the time the artist had finished speaking to order his dish, the chef was offended. when what the artist had in mind was communicated to the chef - whether personally, or through another - the record is unclear - the chef was offended
Then the chef served the dish, the artist ate it, and liked it. indeed, yes
Correct at last? :-) quite so

Did the artist ask for his beef "well done" rather than "medium rare" - or some other exact instructions that to the artist meant "nice and cooked" and to the chef meant "overcooked"? ha-ha, not like that, but OTRT -- when I was routinely engaged in kitchens, such an order would elicit, "WTF! Will they have no respect for the steer who gave its life...?"
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 10:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the artist order his beef in a way that it should not be done? Was the chef offended basically because the artist dared to direct him how to make beef?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 10:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Redwine
Did the artist order his beef in a way that it should not be done? some of us think so... Was the chef offended basically because the artist dared to direct him how to make beef? not that, exactly -- he was accustomed to special requests
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 10:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok, trying the other approach:
Was the artist writer? painter? sculptor? architect? composer? associated with music? poetry? dance? theater?
Did the artist come from: England? Russia? Germany? Other European coutry? United States? Other non-European country?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Post Number: 268
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Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 4:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Redwine
Ok, trying the other approach:
Was the artist writer? painter? sculptor? architect? composer? this associated with music? poetry? dance? theater?
Did the artist come from: England? Russia? Germany? Other European country? this United States? Other non-European country?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Post Number: 380
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Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 6:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the artist come from Italy? Austria? Switzerland? Scandinavia?
Haydn? Weber? Rossini? Beethoven?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 6:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Redwine
Did the artist come from Italy? this Austria? Switzerland? Scandinavia?
Haydn? Weber? Rossini? he's the one Beethoven?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 7:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is there anything about the background that we should discover? Is it essential to the puzzle how exactly Rossini wanted to have his beef done?
Attempted summary of what we know:
Rossini ordered a beef meal in the place of well-known French chef. Rossini made special request as to how he wanted his beef done. The way of preparation he asked for is perceived (by some people) not good. This offended the chef (but how - we don't know yet). The dish was excellently prepared and Rossini enjoyed it.
From this situation cut of beef and a dish that includes this cut got its name. All correct?
Did they normally serve the beef in that restaurant?

It all reminds me of another restaurant puzzle that I read recently in Solved Puzzles, March 2006 "Ut sementem feceris ita metes". The situation from that puzzle is stuck in my head when only I think about special requests and offended chefs...
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Post Number: 276
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Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 8:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Redwine
Is there anything about the background that we should discover? afraid so Is it essential to the puzzle how exactly Rossini wanted to have his beef done? well, rather -- it's rather easy to track down
Attempted summary of what we know:
Rossini ordered a beef meal in the place of well-known French chef. yes Rossini made special request as to how he wanted his beef done. yes The way of preparation he asked for is perceived (by some people) not good. yes This offended the chef (but how - we don't know yet). yes The dish was excellently prepared and Rossini enjoyed it. yes
From this situation cut of beef and a dish that includes this cut got its name. yes All correct? perfectly so
Did they normally serve the beef in that restaurant? they did, but not the way Rossini requested it

It all reminds me of another restaurant puzzle that I read recently in Solved Puzzles, March 2006 "Ut sementem feceris ita metes". The situation from that puzzle is stuck in my head when only I think about special requests and offended chefs...
thanks; I'll look it up
Psydkik (Psydkik)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 10:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the chef serve the dish the way Rossini had requested?

Were any other ingredients involved in Rossini's request? Or just to do with the cooking method for the beef itself?

Did Rossini wish for the beef to be chopped up in some way?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 11:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Psydkik
Did the chef serve the dish the way Rossini had requested? yes
Were any other ingredients involved in Rossini's request? yes, some specific ones -- a clue lurks in the thread of this puzzle
Or just to do with the cooking method for the beef itself? this was likely left to the chef's discretion
Did Rossini wish for the beef to be chopped up in some way? no
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2013 - 7:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Rossini request an italian dish?
Did Rossini request his beef raw? smoked? fried? boiled?
Did Rossini request wine to his beef? Did he request relevant vegetables? Spices?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2013 - 9:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Redwine
Did Rossini request an italian dish? no
Did Rossini request his beef raw? no smoked? no fried? basically -- but how to cook it was left to the chef, likely boiled? no
Did Rossini request wine to his beef? I'm sure he did, but irrelevant Did he request relevant vegetables? OTRT Spices? no
Kayleearafinwiel (Kayleearafinwiel)
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Posted on Thursday, October 24, 2013 - 12:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

fried beef? o_O *perplexed*

stir-fried? xD
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Thursday, October 24, 2013 - 1:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kayleearafinwiel
fried beef? sautéed, actually o_O *perplexed*
stir-fried? no xD
notes on frying:
you've got pan-fried, which is basically the same as sautéed, and you've got deep fried, which is hugely popular in the American South -- think frites or chips, but they don't stop there: they'll deep-fry Twinkies...! -- and in Chinese and other Asian cuisine, you've also got stir-fried and shallow-fried. In Rossini's case, the beef was sautéed.
Solo1 (Solo1)
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Posted on Thursday, October 24, 2013 - 3:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh no, Yojimbo, we don't deep-fry Twinkies in the South, nor Mars Bars! That's the Brits.
Besides, that would ruin good, healthy, chocolate.
I have been lurking on this puzzle, because I think the answer is right on the tip of my brain, but it won't come forward. Drat!
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Thursday, October 24, 2013 - 4:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

whopping clue up there in the thread; I just trolled for it [commercial fishing expression], and there it was, glaring in black-and-white.
...and Redwine, I glanced at the puzzle you mentioned, and was mortified: in my experience, a chef might lack respect for a patron, but never for food. Our chef certainly didn't -- although who could lack respect for Rossini?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Thursday, October 24, 2013 - 10:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Rossini request fruits to his beef? Rice? Did Rossini intended to make a joke of the chef?
In the dish that Rossini asked for, was the beef cut in one piece? Lots of small pieces?
Psydkik (Psydkik)
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Posted on Thursday, October 24, 2013 - 11:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It's only the Scottish that have the stereotype of frying Mars bars - not the whole of Britain ;-)

And you can't waste good chocolate in the USA because you don't have any from what I hear - no Cadbury's, only Hershees which I have had described by all UK friends who've eaten it (and also all American friends who've had Cadbury's to compare it with) as repulsive ;-) And I hear even Mars bars taste significantly better when made in Europe compared to the USA even though you invented them! :-D


Anyway...

Did the chef think that 'sautéed' would be a bad way to prepare the beef, and would have preferred to have prepared it with another method? Would he have been offended even to be asked to prepare it in such a non-super-chef way?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Thursday, October 24, 2013 - 2:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Redwine
Did Rossini request fruits to his beef? no Rice? no Did Rossini intended to make a joke of the chef? no
In the dish that Rossini asked for, was the beef cut in one piece? more than one Lots of small pieces? no
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Thursday, October 24, 2013 - 2:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Psydkik
Did the chef think that 'sautéed' would be a bad way to prepare the beef, and would have preferred to have prepared it with another method? not this -- sautéing such a dish is common Would he have been offended even to be asked to prepare it in such a non-super-chef way? he was offended by Rossini's request, if that's what you mean
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Thursday, October 24, 2013 - 2:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Rossini ask for mushrooms? Salad? Sauce?
If none of the above, was it solid? liquid?
Did Rossini ask for one relevant thing to his beef?
Did whatever-Rossini-asked-for-to-his-beef have to be fried together with the beef?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Thursday, October 24, 2013 - 2:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Redwine
Did Rossini ask for mushrooms? OTRT Salad? no Sauce? {perhaps}
If none of the above, was it solid? solids are worth exploring liquid?
Did Rossini ask for one relevant thing to his beef? more than one
Did whatever-Rossini-asked-for-to-his-beef have to be fried together with the beef? no
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Thursday, October 24, 2013 - 3:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were the products that Rossini requested served raw? Boiled? Fried? Baked? Mixed together? Separated? Served hot?
Were they mixed with beef after it was fried?
Do these products grow underground (like potatoes)? On the ground? On trees?
Was the dish a soup?
Boeuf Strogonow?
Kayleearafinwiel (Kayleearafinwiel)
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Posted on Thursday, October 24, 2013 - 4:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

We do have Cadbury's sometimes - imported, of course. I think the only American chocolate that can match it is Ghirardelli's. It gives me great happiness to live so near San Francisco...
Solo1 (Solo1)
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Posted on Thursday, October 24, 2013 - 6:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don't know about the taste. I'm not a gourmet, much less a chocolate snob. But chocolate IS healthy. Right, Kaylee?

How did we get from boeuf to chocolate?
Kayleearafinwiel (Kayleearafinwiel)
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Posted on Thursday, October 24, 2013 - 9:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Because we did. Psydkik's tinywriting was all about chocolate and I cannot do tinywriting so there we go, chocolate. Also, cheezburger and chocolate are both healthy so there. =P am I right soli-kitteh??
Psydkik (Psydkik)
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Posted on Friday, October 25, 2013 - 12:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yojimbo started it all with his Twinkies, so he'll have to blame himself for derailing his own puzzle! :-D I'm sure I read something claiming that eating chocolate makes you happy, and being happy is good for you, therefore eating chocolate is good for you. So surely the same logic would apply to cheeseburgers. So munch away!

If Rossini had asked for the beef cooked the way he asked, but had asked for the rest of the dish to be prepared however the chef wished, would the chef still have been offended? Or did the offense only happen due to the additional items requested with the beef?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Friday, October 25, 2013 - 2:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Redwine
Were the products that Rossini requested served raw? some were Boiled? Fried? Baked? other; let's just say they were cooked Mixed together? yesish Separated? Served hot? some were
Were they mixed with beef after it was fried? can we call it "sautéed?" -- for svv of "mixed" -- per "yesish" above, yes
Do these products grow underground one does (like potatoes)? On the ground? one does, with manufacturing and preparation On trees? no -- but there are more ingredients, though not many...
Was the dish a soup? no...
Boeuf Strogonow? ...and not this
again, whopping clue in the thread above



Kaylee, Solo, and Psydkik
Jeez, all I did was invoke deep-fried Twinkies, and you guys ran with chocolate. But while we're on the topic:
I agree that Ghirardelli is the best widely-available american chocolate -- Hershey's is not even fit to feed hogs -- but Guittard -- from near SF I think? -- and somewhat mildly obscure, is better, although my favorite is Callebaut, from Belgium. Chocolate-lubbers, you might glance at my recipe for "Ganache au Chocolate," a spreadable form suitable for filling crêpes, or smearing on toast... much better than Nutella, and a snap to make.
And Kaylee, "tinywriting" is super-easy: I use \-2[tinywriting, blah blah], but with curly braces replacing those brackets. It's fun -- Psydkik and I do it all the time. You should try it, and make the older puzzlers with presbyopia have to squint.
And now, as genteel puzzle host, may I request we get back to le beouf?


Psydkik
If Rossini had asked for the beef cooked the way he asked, he was quite specific but had asked for the rest of the dish to be prepared however the chef wished, would the chef still have been offended? if he had merely asked the chef to have his way with the beef, the chef would not have been offended. And is it worthwhile to find out who the chef was? Not necessarily, but he's regarded as perhaps the greatest French chef ever Or did the offense only happen due to the additional items requested with the beef? this is essentially the situation
Kayleearafinwiel (Kayleearafinwiel)
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Posted on Friday, October 25, 2013 - 2:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, The French Chef was Julia Child (or at least, her show was called that) but you say "he"...
Kayleearafinwiel (Kayleearafinwiel)
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*lightbulb* Hang on...*quick search*

Filet mignon & foie gras relevant?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Friday, October 25, 2013 - 2:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kayleearafinwiel
Well, The French Chef was Julia Child (or at least, her show was called that) but you say "he"...
this took place in the early part of the 19th century, so she's out -- and she was an american, although she popularized Cuisine à la Française. I used to watch her show when I was a kid, and that's partly what got me into my career in food. I met her once; she was massive, and her husband, Paul, was tiny.
see how fun sizing text can be, lest we get carried away with it?
Kayleearafinwiel (Kayleearafinwiel)
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Posted on Friday, October 25, 2013 - 2:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

tinywriting, you missed my lightbulb moment, o wondrous puzzle host ;_;
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Friday, October 25, 2013 - 2:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kayleearafinwiel
Filet mignon & foie gras relevant? filet relevant, but not filet mignon, so there's more to it - and foie gras takes care of another ingredient
I was composing my response to your Q when a batch of emails came through, so we sort of cross-posted.
Nice tinywriting, and good Q -- how did you come up with that? Look through the thread as urged?
Kayleearafinwiel (Kayleearafinwiel)
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Posted on Friday, October 25, 2013 - 2:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tournedos Rossini?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Kayleearafinwiel
Tournedos Rossini? yes, and bang -- does Google strike again? Perfectly acceptable, naturally... want to tell us why the [still anonymous] chef was offended [so am I, for that matter], and how whatever it was got its name as a result? Don't think Google will help you with the last, but it might be worth a shot...
Kayleearafinwiel (Kayleearafinwiel)
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Posted on Friday, October 25, 2013 - 3:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Actually, it was dad who insisted I Google it. Wikipedia says:

Tournedos Rossini is a French steak dish, purportedly created for the composer Gioachino Rossini by French master chef Marie-Antoine Carême[1] or by Savoy Hotel chef Auguste Escoffier.[2]
The dish comprises a beef tournedos (filet mignon[3]), pan-fried in butter, served on a crouton, and topped with a hot slice of fresh whole foie gras[4] briefly pan-fried at the last minute. The dish is garnished with slices of black truffle and finished with a Madeira demi-glace sauce.[4][5]

And that is all.
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Friday, October 25, 2013 - 3:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kayleearafinwiel
I would have resorted to a search long ago...
Wikipedia says:
Tournedos Rossini is a French steak dish, purportedly created for the composer Gioachino Rossini by French master chef Marie-Antoine Carême[1] or by Savoy Hotel chef Auguste Escoffier.[2]
The dish comprises a beef tournedos (filet mignon[3]), pan-fried in butter, served on a crouton, and topped with a hot slice of fresh whole foie gras[4] briefly pan-fried at the last minute. The dish is garnished with slices of black truffle and finished with a Madeira demi-glace sauce.[4][5]
And that is all.
It was indeed the great Carême [the also-great Escoffier was too young at the time, and likely a mere plongeur -- something else to Google in an idle moment, although it's irrelevant to this puzzle]. The description of the preparation is reasonably accurate, but not written by someone "in the know," I don't think [mild inaccuracies and misinformation]. Adequate to keep you going, though.
But why was Carême offended? And what was named as a result?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Friday, October 25, 2013 - 3:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I noted that I've managed to host a century puzzle, at last, but with an asterisk: those sidebar posts about chocolate nudged it up there, and now I'm padding the posts with another sidebar...
Thanks for the action.
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Friday, October 25, 2013 - 8:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Carême offended because Rossini requested any particular ingredient of those mentioned above?
Any particular preparation of the ingredient?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Redwine
Was Carême offended because Rossini requested any particular ingredient of those mentioned above? OTRT
Any particular preparation of the ingredient? no
Redwine (Redwine)
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Did Carême think it could not make a good dish? Did he think that chosen ingredients would $poil a good beef?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Redwine
Did Carême think it could not make a good dish? yes Did he think that chosen ingredients would $poil a good beef? pretty much
Redwine (Redwine)
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Did someone suggest naming such an invention (the dish, I mean) by Carême's name? And that's what offended the chef? And he suggested naming it after the one who came with the idea - Rossini?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Redwine
Did someone suggest naming such an invention (the dish, I mean) by Carême's name? no And that's what offended the chef? no And he suggested naming it after the one who came with the idea - Rossini? not this -- good questions all the same, though
Redwine (Redwine)
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Enjoying my new, red-wine colored username :-)
Did Carême suggest Rossini to take something else instead?
Was Carême offended because Rossini requested foie gras? Madeira sauce? Crouton? Truffle? Butter for frying?
Did Rossini only specify ingredients and asked Carême to arrange the dish as the chef wished?
Clarification: "They" in the puzzle sentence stand for Tournedos Rossini, correct?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Redwine
the hexadecimal code is 731038, if that means anything to you
Did Carême suggest Rossini to take something else instead? likely not; Rossini would have been hard to derail
Was Carême offended because Rossini requested foie gras? somewhat this... Madeira sauce? Crouton? Truffle? ...and also this Butter for frying?
Did Rossini only specify ingredients and asked Carême to arrange the dish as the chef wished? no; he was quite specific
Clarification: "They" in the puzzle sentence stand for Tournedos Rossini, correct? partially correct -- or rather, "yesish"
Redwine (Redwine)
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Hexadecimal code means something to me, but I don't know how to use it here...

Is it correct to say that Carême thought foie gras and/or truffle won't go well with beef?

Sorry if question above seem vague, I don't want to google Tournedos Rossini for fear of $poiling the fun of solving this puzzle and I have no knowledge about this dish and its ingredients.

Is it relevant that ingredients Rossini demanded are expensive? Did Carême think that Rossini wanted to eat something expensive and the taste was irrelevant?
Should we find out why Rossini demanded that particular dish?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Hexadecimal code means something to me, but I don't know how to use it here...
found it on the formatting page, so it works like this: \rgb[731038,Redwine], with curly braces replacing the brackets

Is it correct to say that Carême thought foie gras and/or truffle won't go well with beef? basically this, although Beouf Wellington also features them -- it was invoked earlier in the puzzle, and was the clue to the dish to which I was referring

Sorry if question above seem vague, I don't want to google Tournedos Rossini for fear of $poiling the fun of solving this puzzle and I have no knowledge about this dish and its ingredients. Kaylee's already submitted the Wikipedia entry, so that work's been done:

quote:

The dish comprises a beef tournedos (filet mignon[3]), pan-fried in butter, served on a crouton, and topped with a hot slice of fresh whole foie gras[4] briefly pan-fried at the last minute. The dish is garnished with slices of black truffle and finished with a Madeira demi-glace sauce.[4][5]




Is it relevant that ingredients Rossini demanded are expensive? no Did Carême think that Rossini wanted to eat something expensive no and the taste was irrelevant? he did think Rossini had poor culinary taste, in this case, and I think we can safely say that aspect of the puzzle is $poiled: Carême was offended by the idea of Rossini's request -- humble little pieces of filet lost under foie gras, truffle, and sauce -- it's almost surprising that Rossini didn't also request a garnish of tarragon... all that's left to discover is the "how they got their name" part
Should we find out why Rossini demanded that particular dish? no -- the record doesn't include those details. He was probably trying to impress some ladies, or something like that.
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Sunday, October 27, 2013 - 10:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I read that quote from Wikipedia as soon as Kaylee posted it, but still I'm not familiar with the ingredients and so on. Now when I know that this part of puzzle is completed, I'll google them all and learn.
Checking if I learn the color thing.

For the name of Tournedos Rossini we got the "Rossini" part, correct? So it's left to find out the "tournedos" part, correct? Or were they called "tournedos" earlier? Will an attempt of translating "tournedos" from French bring us any closer?
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Redwine
For the name of Tournedos Rossini we got the "Rossini" part, correct? yes So it's left to find out the "tournedos" part, correct? that's right Or were they called "tournedos" earlier? they were not Will an attempt of translating "tournedos" from French bring us any closer? it will -- but this might be tricky [and that's the whole idea, right?]
Redwine (Redwine)
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Tournedos = tourner + dos?
Tourner = to turn?
Dos = back?
Tournedos = something that is turned back? Upside down?
Does it have anything to do with the fact that Rossini turned the idea for beef upside down, asking for a weird dish?
Does the name "tournedos" refer to mode of preparation of the beef?
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Redwine
Tournedos = tourner + dos?
Tourner = to turn?
Dos = back?
Tournedos = something that is turned back? Upside down?
this is completely OTRT -- add a tiny word: a phrase by Carême has been "portmanteaued" into the name of the cut... I could just about $poil, but you've worked hard on this, so perhaps just a little more...
Does it have anything to do with the fact that Rossini turned the idea for beef upside down, asking for a weird dish? not this
Does the name "tournedos" refer to mode of preparation of the beef? not the preparation, but...
Redwine (Redwine)
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Does the name "tournedos" refer to mode of cutting the beef? Refer to which part of beef it is?
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Redwine
Does the name "tournedos" refer to mode of cutting the beef? no Refer to which part of beef it is? it does now, but OTWT
Redwine (Redwine)
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Does the name "tournedos" refer to mode of cooking? Mode of serving?
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Redwine
Does the name "tournedos" refer to mode of cooking? Mode of serving? this -- excellent Q
Redwine (Redwine)
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Does the name "tournedos" refer to a part of dish served upside down? Was the name suggested by Carême? Did it concern serving suggestions from Carême (I guess he did not serve it himself)?
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Redwine
Does the name "tournedos" refer to a part of dish served upside down? no Was the name suggested by Carême? not really, but it somehow stuck Did it concern serving suggestions from Carême yes (I guess he did not serve it himself)? (indeed not; he was shackled to the kitchen)
Redwine (Redwine)
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I googled "Tournedos Rossini" to see the photo of it and totally unwillingly I got the origin of the name instead... Will you ever forgive me?
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Redwine
I googled "Tournedos Rossini" to see the photo of it and totally unwillingly I got the origin of the name instead... Will you ever forgive me?
I just followed through and tried that, and it's not the version that chefs tell, so the game is still on
Redwine (Redwine)
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So it has nothing to do with waiter's behavior?
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Redwine
So it has nothing to do with waiter's behavior? the server's interaction with Rossini is relevant
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Did the server turned back from Rossini? From the dish? Did the server tell anything relevant to Rossini?
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Redwine
Did the server turned back from Rossini? no From the dish? no Did the server tell anything relevant to Rossini? no
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Posted on Monday, October 28, 2013 - 12:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the server serve the dish upside down?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Post Number: 374
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Posted on Monday, October 28, 2013 - 2:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Redwine
Did the server serve the dish upside down? no -- that's kind of funny, though - as in, he dumped it on Rossini's head...
Redwine (Redwine)
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Post Number: 539
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Posted on Monday, October 28, 2013 - 2:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does the intended meaning of "turning back/upside down" refer to the dish? The server? Rossini? Carême?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Post Number: 377
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Posted on Monday, October 28, 2013 - 2:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Redwine
Does the intended meaning of "turning back/upside down" svv refer to the dish? The server? him... Rossini? ...and also him Carême?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Post Number: 553
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Posted on Monday, October 28, 2013 - 3:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the server told to approach Rossini from the back? Did the server interact with Rossini before putting the dish on table? After?
The relevant interaction was not verbal, correct?
Should there be a preposition between "turning" and "back"?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Post Number: 388
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Posted on Monday, October 28, 2013 - 4:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Redwine
Was the server told to approach Rossini from the back? along these lines Did the server interact with Rossini before putting the dish on table? After? not really either
The relevant interaction was not verbal, correct? correct
Should there be a preposition between "turning" and "back"? a little something goes in there, yes

I'm out the door to work in shrubbery for several hours; let's hope I can $poil this for you when I get back to the forum...
Redwine (Redwine)
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Post Number: 559
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Posted on Monday, October 28, 2013 - 10:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the server told to approach Rossini in a way thay Rossini would have to turn back?
Should it be "tourner le dos"?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Post Number: 392
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Posted on Monday, October 28, 2013 - 11:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Redwine
Was the server told to approach Rossini in a way thay Rossini would have to turn back? have his back turned, yes
Should it be "tourner le dos"? pretty much - and close enough for the

*******SPOILER*******

Tournedos [French: “toor-nuh-do”] are medallions cut from a beef tenderloin, which is the muscle that runs along both sides of the spine inside the ribs. Although that muscle is known as the “filet,” and often “filet mignon,” filet mignon is properly a cut taken from the middle of the tapering muscle. The large end serves two, and is known as the “Chateaubriand,” followed by the filets mignon – there are four or five available, depending on how thickly they’re cut – and as the tenderloin tapers further, little medallions are cut from it, and these are known as the tournedos. A Chateaubriand can also be cut from the center of the tenderloin, reserving the large end for steak tartare and the like.
[Kaylee’s list included filet, but not its subordinate cuts: Chateaubriand, filets mignon, and tournedos]
Tournedos Rossini are medallions sautéed in butter and served on a crouton, then topped with a slice of foie gras, garnished with slices of truffle, and finished with a drizzle of Madeira demi-glace.
[this is why “Beef Wellington” was OTRT; it features most of the same ingredients…]

It’s rather a notorious dish in the French culinary canon. The [perhaps apocryphal] story of its creation goes like this:

The famous composer, Gioachino Rossini [The Thieving Magpie, The Barber of Seville, etc.], allegedly instructed a Parisian chef – the great Marie-Antoine Carême, considered the father of French cuisine – to prepare the beef as described.
Carême, recognizing the rather execrable nature of the dish – too much of too many bold flavors; an idea of a child, to him – thought the dish so garish that it should be served while Rossini’s back was turned – which, in French, is “tourne le dos” – lest he be horrified by the presentation of his suggestion.
And this is how the gentle little cut of beef got its name.

Thanks to one and all for playing, with particular props to Redwine’s tenacity.
Redwine (Redwine)
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Post Number: 563
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Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2013 - 11:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks Yojimbo for this puzzle, which made me learn more about beef than I did for my whole life :-)
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Post Number: 396
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Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2013 - 2:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It had a nice long run, but without your drilling down, could have gone longer. I enjoyed it; I enjoy merely thinking about food.

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