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Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Post Number: 79
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Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2013 - 8:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Andrew has been murdered!"
"John did it!"
"But Alice, he couldn't have!"
"Yes, he could! And if I hadn't discovered, he would have had to murder again!"
Redwine (Redwine)
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Post Number: 596
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Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2013 - 11:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did John do it?
Was Andrew murdered?
Are more people relevant than Andrew, John and Alice?
Are all three protagonists human and adult?
Is Andrew male? Is John? Is Alice female?
Was Andrew related to John? to Alice?
Was John related to Alice?
Is location relevant? Did it happen in modern times?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Post Number: 83
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Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2013 - 11:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did John do it? yes, he did
Was Andrew murdered? yes, he was
Are more people relevant than Andrew, John and Alice? yes, two more
Are all three protagonists human and adult? yes, they are
Is Andrew male? Is John? Is Alice female? yes to all, though it isn't really relevant - reverse the sexes and the story would still work
Was Andrew related to John? to Alice? no
Was John related to Alice? no
Is location relevant? yesish... Did it happen in modern times? yes it did, and that's very relevant!
Psydkik (Psydkik)
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Post Number: 506
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Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2013 - 11:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was one of the other two relevant people the speaker of the line "Andrew has been murdered!"?

Did that person also say the line "But Alice, he couldn't have!"?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2013 - 11:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was one of the other two relevant people the speaker of the line "Andrew has been murdered!"? yes

Did that person also say the line "But Alice, he couldn't have!"? and yes
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 30, 2013 - 12:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would John have had to murder Alice to keep her silent?
Mode of murder relevant?
Occupation of our three known characters relevant? Andrew's? John's? Alice's?
Did this take place in an urban setting? Rural? In nature?
Was Alice aware that Andrew was dead before she was told he'd been murdered?
Is the fourth [speaker of lines one and three in the dialogue] a HAM? HAF?
IF a HAM, can we call him Otis?
If a HAF, can she be Natasha?
Is #4 [Otis/Natasha] related to any of the other three?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Post Number: 87
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Posted on Wednesday, October 30, 2013 - 12:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would John have had to murder Alice to keep her silent? well, arguably he might have to now, since she just revealed him as the murderer to everyone (however, this would mean murdering the others as well, and he probably won't risk doing that), but not if she hadn't discovered it, no
Mode of murder relevant? slightly, but not very important
Occupation of our three known characters relevant? Andrew's? John's? Alice's? no occupations are relevant
Did this take place in an urban setting? Rural? fairly rural In nature?
Was Alice aware that Andrew was dead before she was told he'd been murdered? no
Is the fourth [speaker of lines one and three in the dialogue] a HAM? This, but again, it doesn't really matter HAF?
IF a HAM, can we call him Otis? Of course
If a HAF, can she be Natasha?
Is #4 [Otis/Natasha] related to any of the other three? no, or if he was it would be irrelevant
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 30, 2013 - 12:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So if Alice had discovered it, but kept quiet, would John have had to murder her? Or put another way, did John know that Alice was on to him?
Is John's motive relevant?
Does Otis think John has an alibi? Or that he's just not the murdering type?
Is the fifth person a HAM? HAF?
If HAM: named Sam?
If HAF: Natasha?
Does #5 know any of the other four?
For that matter, I assume that Otis, Andrew, John and Alice all know each other?
Does the crime scene have any clues we should discover?
Did the murder take place indoors? Outdoors? Relevant?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Post Number: 88
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Posted on Wednesday, October 30, 2013 - 2:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So if Alice had discovered it, but kept quiet, would John have had to murder her? if he realised she had discovered it, he might indeed have chosen to kill her, yes, but... Or put another way, did John know that Alice was on to him? ...no, he didn't - not until she said so

Is John's motive relevant? not really, we're mostly curious about the method here
Does Otis think John has an alibi? yes! Or that he's just not the murdering type? probably also true, but not the important thing

Is the fifth person a HAM? HAF? this, but once again, this is not crucial
If HAM: named Sam?
If HAF: Natasha? Natasha it is!
Does #5 know any of the other four? yes
For that matter, I assume that Otis, Andrew, John and Alice all know each other? your assumption is correct

Does the crime scene have any clues we should discover? yesish, there are other important elements present that are needed to fully understand the situation, though not mainly at the very spot of the crime...
Did the murder take place indoors? this Outdoors? Relevant? a little
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 30, 2013 - 2:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sounds like perhaps John is present during the dialogue... correct? Is Natasha present?
Is Andrew's body present, or otherwise nearby?
Did Otis discover the body? Is it freshly-dead?
Was he with John when he presumes the murder took place?
Are they vacationing or traveling together? And Otis thought John hadn't arrived yet?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 30, 2013 - 4:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sounds like perhaps John is present during the dialogue... correct? correct! Is Natasha present? no
Is Andrew's body present, or otherwise nearby? it is nearby, yes
Did Otis discover the body? yes Is it freshly-dead? DOYD of freshly dead, but yeah, pretty fresh
Was he with John when he presumes the murder took place? yes! good question!
Are they vacationing or traveling together? yope And Otis thought John hadn't arrived yet? no, he knew he was there, but this is still veeery vaguely OTRT...
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 30, 2013 - 4:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Five characters to track; oh, my, I often get lost in these. For at least my own benefit, the dramatis personae:
Andrew: victim of a murder, and rather freshly-dead [IMO, that means that rigor mortis had not yet set in]
John: the [alleged -- innocent until proven guilty, right?] murderer
Otis: announces the crime
Alice: accuses John
Natasha: TBD
All correctly sorted?
Is Natasha's occupation relevant? Is she law enforcement?
Did John have an accomplice? Was it one of the other four?
Method of murder: gunshot? strangulation? stabbing? blunt force? drowning?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Post Number: 90
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Posted on Wednesday, October 30, 2013 - 7:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Five characters to track; oh, my, I often get lost in these. For at least my own benefit, the dramatis personae:
Andrew: victim of a murder, and rather freshly-dead [IMO, that means that rigor mortis had not yet set in]
John: the [alleged -- innocent until proven guilty, right?] murderer
Otis: announces the crime
Alice: accuses John
Natasha: TBD
All correctly sorted? Beautifully so!

Is Natasha's occupation relevant? yes Is she law enforcement? no
Did John have an accomplice? yope, very much worth exploring! Was it one of the other four? if we regard the answer to the previous question as "yes", then this is also a "yes"
Method of murder: gunshot? strangulation? this, but could easily have been one of the other, except drowning stabbing? blunt force? drowning?
Psydkik (Psydkik)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 30, 2013 - 12:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Otis: "Andrew has been murdered!"
Alice: "John did it!"
Otis: "But Alice, he couldn't have!"
Alice: "Yes, he could! And if I hadn't discovered, he would have had to murder again!"

Have I correctly assigned names to the lines?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 30, 2013 - 12:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the yopish accomplice aware that he (she) helps in murder? Was the yopish accomplice Otis - giving John an alibi?
Did Alice see the murder?
If Alice hadn't discovered, would the next victim be Natasha? Otis? Alice?
Did Alice discover: the body? the murderer? the mode of murder? some evidence?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 30, 2013 - 1:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Otis: "Andrew has been murdered!"
Alice: "John did it!"
Otis: "But Alice, he couldn't have!"
Alice: "Yes, he could! And if I hadn't discovered, he would have had to murder again!"

Have I correctly assigned names to the lines? yes, you have

Was the yopish accomplice aware that he (she) helps in murder? no! Was the yopish accomplice Otis - giving John an alibi? in a way you could say that Otis was also an unaware accomplice, but not the main one
Did Alice see the murder? no
If Alice hadn't discovered, would the next victim be Natasha? yes! Otis? Alice?
Did Alice discover: the body? no, Otis did that the murderer? she realised John was the murderer, but she did not see him commit the murder, if that's what you mean the mode of murder? no, she had no idea about that some evidence? it probably would not hold up as evidence, but something that convinced her of John's guilt
Psydkik (Psydkik)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 30, 2013 - 5:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If instead this had happened:

Andrew [truthfully]: "Otis has been murdered!"

would Alice still have replied

Alice: "John did it!"

?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 30, 2013 - 6:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If instead this had happened:

Andrew [truthfully]: "Otis has been murdered!"

would Alice still have replied

Alice: "John did it!"

?

Given that John still actually did it, and carried out the crime in the same way, yes, she probably would
Sleepingbeaver (Sleepingbeaver)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 30, 2013 - 7:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are we talking about real murder?
Or were they just playing a game?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Thursday, October 31, 2013 - 4:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are we talking about real murder?
Or were they just playing a game?

a very real murder, I'm afraid. No games involved
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Thursday, October 31, 2013 - 4:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Alice think John had a motive?
Did she know something about him that Otis didn't know? Did she know something about Andrew that Otis didn't know?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Thursday, October 31, 2013 - 5:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Alice think John had a motive? yes, and that might have primed her, but it is not the reason why she decided John was the murderer.
Did she know something about him that Otis didn't know? Did she know something about Andrew that Otis didn't know? this is largely irrelevant
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Thursday, October 31, 2013 - 9:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Alice unaware accomplice herself?
Would John have had to murder Natasha because he did not achieve his aim by murdering Andrew only? Did he from the beginning plan to kill both Andrew and Natasha? Did Alice discover anything about Natasha? Andrew? that meant John's motive to murder Natasha was no longer valid?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Thursday, October 31, 2013 - 2:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Alice unaware accomplice herself? like Otis she sort of would have become one if she hadn't realised John was the murderer, but she is not the main accomplice

Would John have had to murder Natasha because he did not achieve his aim by murdering Andrew only? no, his aim was killing Andrew - the murder of Natasha would have been secondary, but necassaryDid he from the beginning plan to kill both Andrew and Natasha? He probably did Did Alice discover anything about Natasha? yesish, she realised something about her Andrew? that meant John's motive to murder Natasha was no longer valid? his motive was no longer valid because Alice said what she said
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Thursday, October 31, 2013 - 3:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, only possible main accomplice left is Natasha, correct? Would that be the motive for second murder - get rid of the unaware accomplice, who could later connect their actions with murder?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Thursday, October 31, 2013 - 3:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Thursday, October 31, 2013 - 3:18 pm:
So, only possible main accomplice left is Natasha, correct? Would that be the motive for second murder - get rid of the unaware accomplice, who could later connect their actions with murder?
very good! That is exactly right!
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Thursday, October 31, 2013 - 7:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Natasha provide John the weapon/tool of murder? Did Natasha help John in hiding evidence? Did Natasha bring/lure Andrew in the place where he was murdered?
Did Alice see Natasha doing her accomplice work?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Friday, November 01, 2013 - 8:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Natasha provide John the weapon/tool of murder? Did Natasha help John in hiding evidence? Did Natasha bring/lure Andrew in the place where he was murdered? no to all of these

Did Alice see Natasha doing her accomplice work? yes she did!
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Friday, November 01, 2013 - 2:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Natasha do her accomplice work before the murder? At the time of murder? After the murder? Did she interact with Andrew in a relevant way?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Friday, November 01, 2013 - 10:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Natasha do her accomplice work before the murder? At the time of murder? After the murder? this Did she interact with Andrew in a relevant way? not relevant to the murder, no
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Saturday, November 02, 2013 - 2:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Natasha help John to get rid of the weapon of murder? To get rid of the corpse? Did she provide John an alibi? Did she hid him from the police?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Saturday, November 02, 2013 - 5:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Natasha help John to get rid of the weapon of murder? To get rid of the corpse? Did she provide John an alibi? this, no to rest Did she hid him from the police?
Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
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Posted on Saturday, November 02, 2013 - 11:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would Natasha have unwittingly provided John with an alibi?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Sunday, November 03, 2013 - 3:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would Natasha have unwittingly provided John with an alibi?
yes
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Monday, November 04, 2013 - 12:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, Alice saw Natasha providing John with an alibi and as a consequence she discovered that John in fact did not have an alibi, correct? And as Natasha's role was revealed, John did not need to kill her anymore, still correct?
Did John ask Natasha to do what she had done to provide him an alibi? Were John and Natasha professionally linked? Did Natasha change date on a document?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2013 - 11:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, Alice saw Natasha providing John with an alibi and as a consequence she discovered that John in fact did not have an alibi, correct? quite so And as Natasha's role was revealed, John did not need to kill her anymore, still correct? correct, there would be no point in killing her if his cover was already blown

Did John ask Natasha to do what she had done to provide him an alibi? if I understand your question correctly then yes, John asked Natasha to do something that he knew would give him an alibi Were John and Natasha professionally linked? yesish, but not terribly important Did Natasha change date on a document? good idea, but no
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2013 - 11:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This is kind of a complex one, so to help everyone keep track, here is a...

**RECAP**

CHARACTERS:
Andrew: victim of a murder
John: the murderer
Otis: announces the crime
Alice: accuses John
Natasha: John's unaware accomplice

Andrew has been murdered (by strangulation). Otis discovers his body (which is somewhere nearby) and tells this to John and Alice. Alice immediately acusses John of being the murderer. Otis says that he couldn't have been (because he thinks he was with John when the murder took place), but Alice insists that he is, having seen Natasha do something that gave John a fake alibi. Furthermore, she realises that if she hadn't discovered this, John would have had no choice but to murder Natasha as well, to get rid of the unaware accomplice who could later connect his actions with the murder.

John did commit the murder, and Natasha did give him an alibi, but she wasn't aware that she was helping him. Whatever she did to help him, she did after the murder had taken place, and because John had asked her to do it. She is not present at the time of this dialogue.

Everyone is human and adult, and they all know each other. Genders are not really important. What IS important is that this story takes place in modern times.
Kayleearafinwiel (Kayleearafinwiel)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2013 - 4:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So:

Otis: "Andrew has been murdered!"
Alice: "John did it!"
Otis: "But Alice, he couldn't have!"
Alice: "Yes, he could! And if I hadn't discovered, he would have had to murder again!" (meaning Natasha)

Yes?

"Modern times" = the 20th/21st century? Post-WWII? Or would it have been possible earlier, say, the Edwardian Era, Roaring Twenties, or Great Depression?
Kayleearafinwiel (Kayleearafinwiel)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2013 - 4:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

*clarifies* "he" meaning John, and "murder again" meaning killing Natasha, in Alice's second statement.
Biograd (Biograd)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2013 - 5:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So Otis believed, incorrectly, that he was with John when the murder occurred? Was he therefore mistaken about when the murder occurred? I'm assuming he wasn't mistaken about being with John, while really it was just someone impersonating John, but this IS a lateral puzzle...?

Assuming that Otis was in fact incorrect about the timing of the murder, was he misled by something to do with where the body was found? by the fact that John seemed to have another alibi for the time before and/or after John and Otis being together? Did Natasha in fact do something that John seemed to have been doing when the murder was committed?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2013 - 7:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So:

Otis: "Andrew has been murdered!"
Alice: "John did it!"
Otis: "But Alice, he couldn't have!"
Alice: "Yes, he could! And if I hadn't discovered, he would have had to murder again!" (meaning Natasha)

Yes? quite right

"Modern times" = the 20th/21st century? yes
Post-WWII? Or would it have been possible earlier, say, the Edwardian Era, Roaring Twenties, or Great Depression? I would say the earliest this could have taken place is in the 1990s

*clarifies* "he" meaning John, and "murder again" meaning killing Natasha, in Alice's second statement. correct!


So Otis believed, incorrectly, that he was with John when the murder occurred? yes Was he therefore mistaken about when the murder occurred? yes I'm assuming he wasn't mistaken about being with John, while really it was just someone impersonating John, but this IS a lateral puzzle...? it is, and you are right to rule out every possibility, but no, you are right in your assumption.

Assuming that Otis was in fact incorrect about the timing of the murder, was he misled by something to do with where the body was found? noish by the fact that John seemed to have another alibi for the time before and/or after John and Otis being together? Not quite sure what you mean. Otis thought he was with John at the actual time of the murder. If this doesn't answer your question, please clarify. Did Natasha in fact do something that John seemed to have been doing when the murder was committed? no
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2013 - 9:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are mobile phones relevant? Did Natasha pretend she was talking with John at the moment of murder, while in fact she was not?
Is it relevant what excuse did John tell to Natasha to gain her help? If yes, professional excuse? Private excuse?
Was something done to the body to change the estimated time of death? Did Otis think the murder was committed earlier than it actually was? Later?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2013 - 9:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are mobile phones relevant? Very much so!! Did Natasha pretend she was talking with John at the moment of murder, while in fact she was not? but the solution is not as straightforward as that, I'm afraid..

Is it relevant what excuse did John tell to Natasha to gain her help? yes If yes, professional excuse? Private excuse? DOYD of "professional"

Was something done to the body to change the estimated time of death? no

Did Otis think the murder was committed earlier than it actually was? Later? this
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2013 - 10:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Natasha work in telecommunication? Did Otis think he talked with John at the time of murder via mobile phone?
Did the relevant mobie phones belong to: Natasha? John? Otis? Alice? Andrew?
Is daylight saving time relevant?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2013 - 10:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Natasha work in telecommunication? noDid Otis think he talked with John at the time of murder via mobile phone? no
Did the relevant mobie phones belong to: Natasha? yes John? and yes Otis? Alice? Andrew?
Is daylight saving time relevant? no, but nice try ;)
Biograd (Biograd)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2013 - 1:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Not quite sure what you mean. Otis thought he was with John at the actual time of the murder. If this doesn't answer your question, please clarify.

What I was trying to get at was to determine how Otis thinks he knows when the murder happened. We know that Otis knows he was with John during a certain period of time, but we don't know how Otis, or anyone else, thinks he can prove that the murder was not committed earlier or later than this period of time.

I was suggesting that possibly John was ostensibly occupied with some sort of responsibility during whatever part of the day he was NOT with Otis, and that maybe Natasha took this over so that John was free to commit the murder.
Kayleearafinwiel (Kayleearafinwiel)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2013 - 4:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Natasha Fatale?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2013 - 11:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What I was trying to get at was to determine how Otis thinks he knows when the murder happened. We know that Otis knows he was with John during a certain period of time, but we don't know how Otis, or anyone else, thinks he can prove that the murder was not committed earlier or later than this period of time. Good! This is exactly what we're looking for.

I was suggesting that possibly John was ostensibly occupied with some sort of responsibility during whatever part of the day he was NOT with Otis, and that maybe Natasha took this over so that John was free to commit the murder. No, this is OTWT. Remember, Otis believed that he was with John at the time of the murder, not that John was off somewhere doing something else


Natasha Fatale? Heh, no, Natasha Fatale is not relevant to this story. I wasn't even the one who named her Natasha ;)
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2013 - 11:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, Otis was mistaken as to the time of murder. Did he falsely assume the time of murder because of Natasha's actions? Did John make her to find the body? Did John make her to somehow assure Otis that at certain time Andrew was well and living?
Is the following timing correct?
1. John plans murder and gets Natasha to help him/
2. John commits murder
3. Otis thinks John commits murder
4. Body is found
5. Alice makes her discovery
6. The conversation from the puzzle sentence takes place.

Assuming it's correct, did the relevant phone call take place between 1-2? 2-3? 3-4? 4-5? Was there only one relevant phone call?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2013 - 11:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, Otis was mistaken as to the time of murder. correct Did he falsely assume the time of murder because of Natasha's actions? yes Did John make her to find the body? no Did John make her to somehow assure Otis that at certain time Andrew was well and living? yes!

Is the following timing correct?
1. John plans murder and gets Natasha to help him/ no, Natasha is not involved at this point, other than in John's plans
2. John commits murder yes
3. Otis thinks John commits murder no, Otis does NOT think John commits the murder - he believes he is with him at this point.
4. Body is found yes
5. Alice makes her discovery yesish, the realisation doesn't really hit her until she is told Andrew is dead. So really this takes place after line 1 of the conversation
6. The conversation from the puzzle sentence takes place. yes, but see above

Assuming it's correct, did the relevant phone call Ah, but I have never said anything about a phone call, now have I? take place between 1-2? 2-3? but the relevant action takes place between 2 and 3 3-4? 4-5? Was there only one relevant phone call? there were no relevant phone calls!

GOOD line of questions!
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2013 - 12:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Improving the timing:
1. John plans murder and plans to get Natasha to help.
2. John commits murder
3. Natasha does something that assures Otis Andrew is well and living
4. John is with Otis and Otis thinks this is the time of murder
5. Body is found
6. The puzzle conversation starts
7. Alice makes a connection about Natasha's actions she saw and the murder
8. The rest of conversation goes as we know it.
Correct now?
Does Natasha's action involve mobile phones? Did she phone/text John? Did John had her number tagged as "Andrew", so that Otis could see Andrew texting/calling?
As there were no relevant phone calls: did someone call but the phone was not picked up? Noone called at all?
If the last is correct, are other features of mobile phones relevant? Photo cameras? Movie cameras? Showing date/time? Contact lists? Games?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2013 - 2:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Improving the timing:
1. John plans murder and plans to get Natasha to help.
2. John commits murder
3. Natasha does something that assures Otis Andrew is well and living
4. John is with Otis and Otis thinks this is the time of murder
5. Body is found
6. The puzzle conversation starts
7. Alice makes a connection about Natasha's actions she saw and the murder
8. The rest of conversation goes as we know it.
Correct now? This looks very accurate! Well done!

Does Natasha's action involve mobile phones? yope Did she phone/text John? no Did John had her number tagged as "Andrew", so that Otis could see Andrew texting/calling? no, but good thought

As there were no relevant phone calls: did someone call but the phone was not picked up? Noone called at all? no calls were made whatsoever

If the last is correct, are other features of mobile phones relevant? yes! Photo cameras? Movie cameras? Showing date/time? Contact lists? Games? no to all

To save everyone some time: the relevant phone related action was sending a text message
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2013 - 9:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Natasha text John? Did John text Natasha? Was Andrew's name mentioned in the text?
Did the one who was texted receive a message? Read it? Read it out loud? Show it to someone else? Mention it with conversation with someone?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Thursday, November 07, 2013 - 9:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Natasha text John? no Did John text Natasha? yes Was Andrew's name mentioned in the text? no

Did the one who was texted receive a message? yes Read it? yes Read it out loud? no Show it to someone else? no Mention it with conversation with someone? no
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Thursday, November 07, 2013 - 10:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

In that message John asked Natasha to do something that later turned out to be unaware accomplice work, right?
Did John text Natasha after having murdered Andrew? If yes, after: seconds? minutes? hours? days? after having murdered Andrew? Did Natasha do her accomplice work immediately after having received the message? Or was receiving the message accomplice work itself?
Did the message imply something about Andrew? Did John and Natasha have preceeding agreement concerning the message? Actions of Natasha when she receives that message?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Thursday, November 07, 2013 - 12:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

In that message John asked Natasha to do something that later turned out to be unaware accomplice work, right? yesish, the message was kind of incomplete

Did John text Natasha after having murdered Andrew? yes If yes, after: seconds? minutes? hours? this is most likely days? after having murdered Andrew? Did Natasha do her accomplice work immediately after having received the message? yes Or was receiving the message accomplice work itself? not quite

Did the message imply something about Andrew? no, and that's important! Did John and Natasha have preceeding agreement concerning the message? not beside that he had probably asked her to do this kind of thing before Actions of Natasha when she receives that message?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Thursday, November 07, 2013 - 1:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did John ask Natasha to justify his absence somewhere? To do part of his work? To pretend he was somewhere else than he really was? Were John and Andrew coworkers?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Thursday, November 07, 2013 - 4:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did John ask Natasha to justify his absence somewhere? To do part of his work? To pretend he was somewhere else than he really was? no to all of these

Were John and Andrew coworkers? irr.
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Thursday, November 07, 2013 - 5:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did John's message mention? or imply? Otis? Alice?
Did Natasha do something that normally would include Andrew's participation/consent? So that everybody thought that if she did this, she must have gotten Andrew's participation/consent?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Thursday, November 07, 2013 - 6:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did John's message mention? or imply? Otis? Alice? no

Did Natasha do something that normally would include Andrew's participation/consent? So that everybody thought that if she did this, she must have gotten Andrew's participation/consent? not at all - Nice idea though
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Friday, November 08, 2013 - 9:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the message "kind of incomplete" on purpose? Did Natasha do her action exactly as John planned it? Was Natasha in a relevant place when she got the message? Did her action involve specific equipment? Could this action be done by anyone? Could this action be completed within seconds?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Friday, November 08, 2013 - 11:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the message "kind of incomplete" on purpose? yes! Did Natasha do her action exactly as John planned it? pretty much yes - his plan was dodgy enough that he probably had a plan B if she didn't, but he never had to consider it Was Natasha in a relevant place when she got the message? it was important approximately where she was, yes Did her action involve specific equipment? no, no equipment needed Could this action be done by anyone? pretty much Could this action be completed within seconds? well, it depends what you define as the actual "action", but the whole thing shouldn't take more than a couple of minutes at the most, and maybe less than one
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Friday, November 08, 2013 - 1:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Natasha try to get the missing part of the message? Did she assume what the missing part of message was about? Did she act accordingly to that assumption?
Did whatever Natasha did after having received the message, involve contact with someone?
Was she at her workplace when she got the message? Was she at home? Was she outdoors?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Monday, November 11, 2013 - 10:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Natasha try to get the missing part of the message? yes sort of, beware of a possible FA Did she assume what the missing part of message was about? yesish Did she act accordingly to that assumption? yes

Did whatever Natasha did after having received the message, involve contact with someone? yes

Was she at her workplace when she got the message? yes Was she at home? Was she outdoors? yes
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 12, 2013 - 12:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Natasha's action involve contact with Otis? With Alice? With John?
Did her action involve time? Did she set up a different time somewhere? Did Otis see the result of Natasha's action? Hear the result? Hear about the result?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 12, 2013 - 12:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Natasha's action involve contact with Otis? partly this... With Alice? ...and partly this... With John? ...but mainly this

Did her action involve time? not in any direct sense, no, she did not adjust any clocks, travel to other time zones or anything like that Did she set up a different time somewhere? so no

Did Otis see the result of Natasha's action? yope - explore! Hear the result? nnno.. Hear about the result? yes, BUT...
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 12, 2013 - 1:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Natasha contact Otis, Alice and John in person? Via Internet? Did she text them? Did she assemble Otis, Alice and John together at the fixed time?
Did Otis assume that she contacted also Andrew?
Plebeian (Plebeian)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 12, 2013 - 4:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did John ask Natasha to call him back? Or text him back?
Was the message deliberately lacking so that Natasha would have to call back? Or text back?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 12, 2013 - 8:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Natasha contact Otis, Alice and John in person? yes!! Via Internet? Did she text them? Did she assemble Otis, Alice and John together at the fixed time? no to the rest

Did Otis assume that she contacted also Andrew? not at that time, but...


Did John ask Natasha to call him back? Or text him back? no

Was the message deliberately lacking so that Natasha would have to call back? Or text back? no, it was deliberately lacking so that Natasha would have to...
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - 8:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the message deliberately lacking so that Natasha would have to visit all relevant people in person?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - 12:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the message deliberately lacking so that Natasha would have to visit all relevant people in person? yesish, I think there is an FA lurking here that has to do with the fact that the setting hasn't been properly established
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - 12:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were all people involved present in one location? Within walking distance?
We know that: the setting is fairy rural, Andrew was murdered indoors, and Natasha was outdoors in her workplace when she received John's message, all correct?
Did Natasha contact Otis, Alice and John within her professional capacity?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - 3:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were all people involved present in one location? Within walking distance? Yes! To be accurate: Otis, Alice and John were sitting in the exact same place, while Natasha was in walking distance of the three of them. They were all in walking distance of Andrew's body

We know that: the setting is fairy rural, Andrew was murdered indoors, and Natasha was outdoors in her workplace when she received John's message, all correct? Yes. The rural part is not terribly important, but might give you a clearer picture of the setting
Did Natasha contact Otis, Alice and John within her professional capacity? She believes he is doing her job, yes.
Plebeian (Plebeian)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - 4:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

When Natasha received the text message, did she know it was from John? Or think it was from Andrew? Or one of the others?
When she came in, whatever she said to the group suggested that Andrew was alive at that time, correct?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - 7:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

When Natasha received the text message, did she know it was from John? yes Or think it was from Andrew? Or one of the others? so no
When she came in, whatever she said to the group suggested that Andrew was alive at that time, correct? yope, you're missing one step of the process
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - 7:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were they in a hotel? In a restaurant? Did Natasha try to contact Andrew before she approached the group? Did she do other relevant thing between getting the message and approaching the group?
Did Natasha work only outdoors?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - 11:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were they in a hotel? In a restaurant? no and no Did Natasha try to contact Andrew before she approached the group? no, but.... Did she do other relevant thing between getting the message and approaching the group? let me help you a bit here: the correct sequence is 1) she got the message 2) she approached the group 3) she did something else that is very relevant 4) she approached the group AGAIN
Did Natasha work only outdoors? no
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 9:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were they in a sort of touristic site? Leisure center? Did the group pay Natasha?
Were the group sitting when Natasha approached them? Walking? Relevant?
Did she consider it weird that John texts her, being within walking distance of her? Did Otis and Alice see John texting?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Were they in a sort of touristic site? Leisure center? Did the group pay Natasha? no to all

Were the group sitting when Natasha approached them? this Walking? Relevant? not extremely, but it might help you understand the whole situation better.

Did she consider it weird that John texts her, being within walking distance of her? no, probably not - she probably just thought it was more convenient for him to text her Did Otis and Alice see John texting? yes, and this is one of the things that later made Alice realise what had happened!
Biograd (Biograd)
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Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 4:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Between the two times when she (Natasha) approached the group, did she:
Check something visually? talk to someone? otherwise obtain some information? visit a particular place?

Did she obtain, or otherwise interact with, one of Andrew's possessions?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 6:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Between the two times when she (Natasha) approached the group, did she:
Check something visually? yes talk to someone? no, BUT a little talking might have been involved even so... otherwise obtain some information? yope visit a particular place? yesish

Did she obtain, or otherwise interact with, one of Andrew's possessions? no
Redwine (Redwine)
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Were the group sitting on the numbered places? On/at the facility with specific number of places? Was Andrew supposed to be sitting with them? Were they waiting for Andrew to come? Did Natasha check if Andrew had already arrived?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 11:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were the group sitting on the numbered places? On/at the facility with specific number of places? no

Was Andrew supposed to be sitting with them? YES! Were they waiting for Andrew to come? yes! Did Natasha check if Andrew had already arrived? no, but you're getting close
Plebeian (Plebeian)
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Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 11:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

When Natasha came into the gathering the first time, after the incomplete message, did she expect that Andrew would be there?
Did some component of the message, or something implied by the partial message, make her think he was there? Or did she just expect the whole group to be there?
When she left, was she leaving to go to find Andrew? Or to go to his office?
Did she, in fact, find Andrew? Dead?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 11:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Natasha, approaching the group for the second time, give them the information that Andrew won't come? If yes, did it make Otis think that she had that information from Andrew directly?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 1:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

When Natasha came into the gathering the first time, after the incomplete message, did she expect that Andrew would be there? perhaps, but she probably didn't really think too much about it.

Did some component of the message, or something implied by the partial message, make her think he was there? no Or did she just expect the whole group to be there? probably, but again, she didn't really think too much about it

When she left, was she leaving to go to find Andrew? no, but..... Or to go to his office? no
Did she, in fact, find Andrew? Dead? no and no


Did Natasha, approaching the group for the second time, give them the information that Andrew won't come? no, but nice thought If yes, did it make Otis think that she had that information from Andrew directly? no, but she did saysomething that made Otis think Andrew was ok
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 2:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were they in the pub? Did Natasha order drinks for all of them, including Andrew? Did she declare somewhere the number of people, including Andrew?
Did Natasha mention Andrew by name?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 5:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were they in the pub? no Did Natasha order drinks for all of them, including Andrew? no Did she declare somewhere the number of people, including Andrew? no
Did Natasha mention Andrew by name? NO!
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Saturday, November 16, 2013 - 4:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were they on a picnic? A hike? Skiing trip? In journey?
Were they in the garden?
Was Natasha responsible for the place they were in? For their future plans?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Saturday, November 16, 2013 - 5:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were they on a picnic? not exactly... A hike? Skiing trip? In journey? no
Were they in the garden? yes, more specifically, they were having breakfast in the garden (not terribly important, but now you know)
Was Natasha responsible for the place they were in? in a way, she did have a partial responsibility For their future plans? no
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Sunday, November 17, 2013 - 11:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think we're really close to a solution now, but one vital element is still missing. I shall post a recap, in the hope that things will seem clearer.


**RECAP**

CHARACTERS:
Andrew: victim of a murder
John: the murderer
Otis: announces the crime
Alice: accuses John
Natasha: John's unaware accomplice


John murders Andrew (by strangling him, but that's not terribly important). Some hour later, he is sitting in the garden with Otis and Alice. They are waiting for Andrew, who (naturally) doesn't show. John then sends a text message to Natasha, who is within walking distance of them. Alice and Otis sees him using his phone, but for now makes nothing much of it.

Natasha receives the message, which is kind of incomplete, and she then approaches the group. Shortly thereafter, she leaves them and does something which involves going to a certain place and checking something visually. She doesn't exactly talk to anyone, but a little talking might have been involved even so. She then returns to the group. On this second encounter she says something that makes Otis (and Alice, for now) think that Andrew is OK. She doesn't, however, mention Andrew by name.

Later, Otis discovers Andrew's body, which is somewhere indoors. He rushes out to the others, and the following conversation takes place:

Otis: "Andrew has been murdered!"
Alice: (in suddden realisation) "John did it!"
Otis: "But Alice, he couldn't have!" (because he knows they were together at a time Andrew was OK, and have been since)
Alice: "Yes, he could! And if I hadn't discovered, he would have had to murder again!" (meaning Natasha)

Natasha's profession is sort of important (though the puzzle could probably work without it), and she is at work at the time this takes place. Natasha never discovers any dead body and never finds any of this odd or out of the ordinary.
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Sunday, November 17, 2013 - 4:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are they in the garden of John's house? Otis's? Alice's? Does Natasha work in this house? Does she work in community services?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Sunday, November 17, 2013 - 9:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are they in the garden of John's house? yes Otis's? Alice's? Does Natasha work in this house? yes Does she work in community services? no
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Sunday, November 17, 2013 - 9:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did John ask Natasha to serve them meal? To prepare the table? Did Natasha prepare the meal for four people?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Sunday, November 17, 2013 - 9:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did John ask Natasha to serve them meal? To prepare the table? Did Natasha prepare the meal for four people? no to all
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Sunday, November 17, 2013 - 9:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did she approach the group to ask John about what was incomplete in the message? Did she work as John's secretary? As a household care? As a babysitter?
Was the place Natasha went to between first and second approach to the group a part of John's house? A shop?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Sunday, November 17, 2013 - 11:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did she approach the group to ask John about what was incomplete in the message? yope Did she work as John's secretary? this could work As a household care? but this is closer to what i had in mind As a babysitter? it's a stretch. but maaaybe this could have worked as well. Well, in this case no, anyway.

Was the place Natasha went to between first and second approach to the group a part of John's house? yes! A shop? so no
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Sunday, November 17, 2013 - 11:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So she went somewhere in the house: a cellar? a garage? a kitchen? John's office? One of the bedrooms? Bathroom? Did she check something in documents?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Monday, November 18, 2013 - 9:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So she went somewhere in the house: a cellar? maybe, but not the most likely place a garage? probably not?a kitchen? probably not John's office? possibly One of the bedrooms? also possible, and perhaps the most likely Bathroom? unlikely Did she check something in documents?no

The important thing about the room was that both John and Natasha knew about something that was in the room (or at least probably was).
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Monday, November 18, 2013 - 9:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was it something common in households? Was it a computer? Another electronic device? A telephone? Was it something personal for John? For Natasha?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Monday, November 18, 2013 - 11:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was it something common in households? In quite a few households, yes Was it a computer? Another electronic device? A telephone? none of these Was it something personal for John? I think you could say that For Natasha? probably not, or at least to a much lesser degree
Plebeian (Plebeian)
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Posted on Monday, November 18, 2013 - 11:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So Natasha was a maid, or servant, correct?
Did John just ask Natasha (in the text message? Or in the first meeting?) for something which she would know where it was?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Monday, November 18, 2013 - 12:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So Natasha was a maid, or servant, correct? yes. exact job description is not all that important, just that she worked for John in his house

Did John just ask Natasha (in the text message? Or in the first meeting?) for something which she would know where it was? OTRT - he asked her to do *something* with *something* she knew where was - and let's say he asked her partially in the message, partially in the first meeting. I don't know if that sentence makes any meaning to anyone, but it was the best I could do without giving it all away.
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Monday, November 18, 2013 - 12:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he ask her to check something in his notebook/agenda? To bring him part of clothing?
Was the item she was supposed to use something related to her job?
Did John deliberately make the message incomplete, in order for Natasha to come and ask for further partial instructions? And the part of the instructions he gave her in the presence of Otis and Alice was meant to develop the misconception about Andrew?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Monday, November 18, 2013 - 1:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he ask her to check something in his notebook/agenda? To bring him part of clothing? no to both, OTWT
Was the item she was supposed to use something related to her job? not strictly, and there is a FA here

Did John deliberately make the message incomplete, in order for Natasha to come and ask for further partial instructions? YES!!
And the part of the instructions he gave her in the presence of Otis and Alice was meant to develop the misconception about Andrew? AND YES!!! Excellent questions!
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Monday, November 18, 2013 - 1:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Natasha supposed to use the item? Was the item useable?
Was the item photo album? So that Natasha could say she saw Andrew?
Plebeian (Plebeian)
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Posted on Monday, November 18, 2013 - 2:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did John ask Natasha to go look for something? (e.g. some item he said he wanted)
Or look up some information in some place?
Or look through a window somewhere?
Or inspect any photographs? Or video / CCTV?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Monday, November 18, 2013 - 2:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Natasha supposed to use the item? Was the item useable? "use" is a very strange word for it. As is "item", when it comes to that.
Was the item photo album? So that Natasha could say she saw Andrew? no, but very good idea!


Did John ask Natasha to go look for something? in a way, yes (e.g. some item he said he wanted) but not this

Or look up some information in some place? no
Or look through a window somewhere? no
Or inspect any photographs? Or video / CCTV? no
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Monday, November 18, 2013 - 3:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

he asked her to do *something* with *something* she knew where was
Is the second *something* a living creature? A human? A pet?
Did John say Natasha to feed the pet, when the "pet" part was texted and "feed" part was spoken and Otis and Alice assumed John was refering to Andrew?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Monday, November 18, 2013 - 4:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

he asked her to do *something* with *something* she knew where was
Is the second *something* a living creature? YES A human? A pet? AND YES! Good job!

Did John say Natasha to feed the pet, when the "pet" part was texted and "feed" part was spoken and Otis and Alice assumed John was refering to Andrew? This is very close, and I think close enough that we can actually call it a...


*****SPOILER*****

Otis, John and Alice are having breakfast in the garden of John's house. They are all visiting, along with Andrew, who has yet to get up. Impatient, John suggests they go bring him down. Secretly, though, he has already murdered him. As he is speaking to the others about Andrew, he candidly sends an SMS to his maid, Natasha, who is further down in the garden: "WORRIED ABOUT THE DOG - SOME HELP PLEASE?".

Natasha sees the SMS and approaches them, but before she can say anything, John says "could you just go upstairs and check on him? I think he's still sleeping. Just wake him up and leave the door open." Natasha nods and walks into the house. There, she walks to the dog's casket, finds it there, wakes it up and returns to the others, saying "Everything is OK. He was sleeping, but he's awake now. I'm sure he'll be out eventually." John thanks her and sends her off to do an errand.

As Andrew doesn't show up, Otis decides to check on him again. He discoveres that he has been murdered and runs back into the garden:

OTIS: "Andrew has been murdered!"
ALICE: "John did it!"
OTIS: "But Alice, he couldn't have!"
ALICE: "Yes, he could! And if I hadn't discovered, he would have had to murder again!"

Alice has realised what kind of dual-reality trick John had been playing in order to secure the perfect alibi. And then she realises that for this to work, he would have had to murder Natasha as well at some point, before she could reveal that she never checked on Andrew, only the dog.



Whew! That was a long one! Thank you so much for playing everyone, especially Redwine and Plebeian, who stuck to it all the way to the end. And congrats to Redwine on finally nailing the last bit!
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Monday, November 18, 2013 - 6:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That was much fun. And very creative idea of getting away with murder.
Plebeian (Plebeian)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2013 - 10:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Nice one - I do enjoy a good murder :-)

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